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Author Topic: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions  (Read 7346 times)

James Clark

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2018, 10:48:01 PM »


Creating one's own definitions to suit the argument.


And yet, were the story about a game warden killed while practicing appropriate wildlife management, I suspect that would be much less controversial.   Tony's really not the one stretching definitions here.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2018, 11:07:04 PM »

... Oh, and if you enjoy killing things, there really is something wrong with you.

Thanks for the free diagnosis. Given the cost of medical advice here, I surely appreciate it ;)

You seem to frame hunting only as the "joy of killing." I am sure hunters would disagree with such a narrow description, as Kent already explained.

Btw, I am not a hunter. Yet I support hunters. Now, if someone would invite me to hunt with them, for instance Kent, I wouldn't turn it down. I would probably miss, especially birds in flight. I can't even get them sharp with a lens.

I also do not own guns. Yet I support gun ownership. I do not consider most hunters and gun owners as "twisted personalities" or nut jobs.

I do not like the concept of canned hunting. I do not understand how those guys can feel pride for killing in such circumstances. I would find it laughable to see them proudly displaying their trophies, knowing they got them with the same difficulty as taking a candy from a baby.

Having said that, the word "canned" bring another concept to mind: canned laughter in tv comedies. You can call it laughable, and I would agree, but guess what, studies have shown it works (i.e., canned laughter shows generate more viewers than otherwise).

There is also canned "wildlife" photography, where tamed captive animals are trained to pose, even for action shots. Such photographs are rightly prohibited in wildlife photo contests, or at least need to be labeled as such.

I do not understand hunting with a scope. Too easy. However, I just assume I do not know enough about it, as there might be some aspect I am overlooking. Bow and arrow, however...

I agree with Tony that to be considered a sport, there has to be some element of risk, skin in the game, as well as a lot of skills to detect, track and kill with one shot.

But I also do not understand why 100,000 grown-ups come to watch a dozen other grown-ups chase a ball and pay millions for that. I do not understand obsession with celebrities or royal families either.

I do not understand why boxers beat each other to a pulp, even more so UFC fighting, especially women UFC (however, having read Rob's post in the A Touch of Humor thread, post #591, I think I do). I really do not understand this:



I do not understand...

Ok, by now you gathered that I do not understand many things in life. Or do not like, of find sick and disgusting. There are many twisted personalities in this world, weirdos and deviants. Some we celebrate as a Woman of the Year, for some we organize parades.

But I stop there. I do not understand and I do not like, but I do not harass them, call for them to be banned, let alone threaten to or kill them. I do not gloat when they die. Live and let live. I do not think society would be better off without them. I do not have a vision of an ideal society, where everyone does just the right thing, politically correct, where only non-twisted personalities are allowed. And I certainly do not advocate use of force to achieve such society. Because, you see, my version of ideal society would surely differ from yours, my chosen groups might be the exact opposite of yours. Some people, however, believe only they (or their ideology) possess the truth of what is right and wrong and do not hesitate to impose it by force onto others (the unwashed masses).



Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2018, 11:08:30 PM »

And yet, were the story about a game warden killed while practicing appropriate wildlife management, I suspect that would be much less controversial.   Tony's really not the one stretching definitions here.

Huh? You lost me here.

Two23

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2018, 11:34:59 PM »


I do not understand hunting with a scope. Too easy. However, I just assume I do not know enough about it, as there might be some aspect I am overlooking.


On the Northern Plains there are miles and miles of....miles and miles.  It's flat, wide open short grass.  Try hitting an antelope 400-500 yards away without a scope on your gun.  Antelope look like tiny dots at that distance.   Yes, Custer did it with a .45/70 when he lived in North Dakota back in the 1870s, but he had many weeks to do it rather than just a few days.  My scope?  A 3x9 Nikon Monarch, of course. :D


Kent in SD
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tom b

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2018, 12:13:54 AM »

Just a thought…

What does lion meat taste like?

Just asking,
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Tom Brown

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2018, 12:34:31 AM »

I've just had an evil thought. In Australia we kill kangaroos and wild pigs for pet food.

One of the biggest killers of Australian wildlife is feral cats. What if we could make an industry to kill feral cats to feed our cats and dogs?

I don't know what to say,
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Tom Brown

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2018, 01:48:48 AM »

I've just had an evil thought. In Australia we kill kangaroos and wild pigs for pet food.

One of the biggest killers of Australian wildlife is feral cats. What if we could make an industry to kill feral cats to feed our cats and dogs?

I don't know what to say,

People also eat kangaroo, it's bloody delicious!  Stir fry works very well (quick cooking since it's such a lean meat), or to make burgers (because you can mix it up with some oils/fats/stuff).

As to the cat vs native animal issue - the main report relied on by people to make that claim is a metadata study that extrapolates from a very small sample to make its claims and does so by brandishing large numbers of supposed kills without ever mentioning what the actual population is.  To put things in perspective in terms of animal numbers, there is a bit of ocean near Norway where a yearly occurrence of herring sees numbers around a billion.  So when someone says cats (feral or domestic) kill a few hundred million various animals a year, unless someone provides details of how many there are to start and what their reproduction rate is like, it's meaningless at best and a deliberately misleading agenda at worst.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2018, 02:44:33 AM »

I am annoyed by those people too (and many, many others, but I digress).

But... do you also stop them, harass them, beat the crap out of them? Or if the offender, shortly after throwing things out of the car, ends up in a car accident and dies, do you applaud and claim the society is better off without them? Because that is the parallel of what we are talking about in this thread.
And you accuse Tony of using a straw man? And now this, if there ever was a straw man it's this post of yours. Nobody in this thread suggested the things you are saying there, they're just a figment of your imagination.

Nobody suggested that hunters needed to be harassed or beaten up, nobody suggested sociey is better off without them if they die. Calling out poaching archers is something different (even though you claimed he did that "legally") and the general sense is that some people find that society would be better off if they changed their hunting habits, which is very far from a death wish.

The point is everybody draws their line in the sand at a different place, some people don't like animals killed for food (and are vegetarian), while others are OK killing for food production and/or species control but not canned hunting or poaching.

Whether you like it or not, it's not black and white and we're discussing where everybody draws the line, if we can't respect where everybody does that and sling silly straw man arguments at them if they don't draw the line exactly where you do it tells more about your intolerance than of the other posters here that you are accusing of being "wrong" and intolerant.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 03:10:15 AM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

tom b

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2018, 03:47:19 AM »

I've poked the stick.

In Australia:
Crocodiles once were considered a pest but now are considered a high end fashion product (bags etc) plus crocodile tastes like "chicken" everything does with black bean sauce.
Camels were thought of as feral but camel milk is now a very expensive commodity here.
Kangaroos, hey skin, meat…
Feral pigs, pork, bacon, don't get Andrew Zimmern started.

The big five: Lion, leopard, rhinoceros, elephant and Cape buffalo. Buffalo goes down well in Indonesia has anyone tried the others?

Just messing,

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Tom Brown

Rob C

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2018, 04:27:24 AM »


1    Don't tell anybody, but I generally also shoot either an antelope (out West) or a deer (on my farm) every autumn.  And, I once shot an elk in one of our state parks.  (They sell licenses to control population and the proceeds stay with the park.)

2   I will also once again bring up the point that our culture/background makes a significant difference.  Anyone growing up on a farm quickly learns it's unwise to get emotionally attached to the animals you raise. :(


Kent in SD


1.  And you shoot this thing in order to:

eat it;

to remove the head and hang it on the wall like a canvas photograph;

you shoot it because you want to satisfy the ancient, atavistic and  "inborn desire to kill" that we were discussing a few lines earlier;

you believe that it somehow affirms your masculinity?

2.  Animals raised on a farm are clearly raised to sustain human life either through the supply of milk, meat or eggs. They are, one hopes and prays, treated humanely, but the news now and then shows this is by no means the general case.

You have a farm; have you ever had to photograph the workings of a city's abattoir? It was an early gig that I was handed during my first year or so as a freelance photographer. I will not run through what I saw and photographed again, having recounted it on LuLa before, but suffice to say that anyone who tells you that cattle, penned outside the building, have no idea what's going down inside it are either deaf or blind. The smell and sense of blood and killing remains with you for weeks, no matter how you shower.

Never pick a fight with an abattoir worker.

Rob

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2018, 07:03:34 AM »

One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. -- Groucho Marx
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2018, 08:04:40 AM »

... nobody suggested sociey is better off without them if they die...

While responding to the news that a hunter was killed (bold mine):

Oh how very sad, never mind.

I get the idea of hunting for food, but killing things just for the fun of it? That requires a twisted personality. Society is better off without them.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2018, 08:20:26 AM »

...Nobody in this thread suggested the things you are saying there..

And I did not claim so either (apart from gloating over a dead hunter).

But that (gloating) and the rest is a prevailing ethos on the left when it comes to hunting, gun ownership, and pretty much everything else the left disagrees with (Antifa, anyone?). Or abortion clinics on the right. I provided two examples in my previous post, there are many, many more. We are discussing the world around us, not just what someone said on this forum. Btw, not so long ago, a member of this forum suggested a website “www.starvebigottodeath.com”

tom b

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2018, 08:44:09 AM »

And I did not claim so either (apart from gloating over a dead hunter).

But that (gloating) and the rest is a prevailing ethos on the left when it comes to hunting, gun ownership, and pretty much everything else the left disagrees with (Antifa, anyone?). Or abortion clinics on the right. I provided two examples in my previous post, there are many, many more. We are discussing the world around us, not just what someone said on this forum. Btw, not so long ago, a member of this forum suggested a website “www.starvebigottodeath.com”

I think someone has jumped the shark. I have posted previously that this thread should be closed, now should be a good time.

Just thinking,

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Tom Brown

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2018, 09:17:31 AM »

Hi Slobodan,

Thanks for explaining your point of view.

Just explaining a few of mine...
  • I am quite a bit against killing for enjoyment.
  • I will recognize that hunting can be necessary to control the populations of wildlife. Just for an example, we want reduce moose in Sweden because they cause traffic accidents.
  • It is probably more human for animals to be killed by a competent hunters than starving to death or be killed by wolf or big cat.
  • Regarding gun controls, I would mention that we have significant gun controls in Sweden, but intergang killings escalate. And guess what, they use illegal weapons. Or they use handgrenades that Swedish authorities do not consider illegal or weapons. Why?
     They simply forgot!
Just to put things in perspective, a friend of mine spent a couple of months in South Africa, training as a safari guide. They were not shooting any lions, but learned to track them and also to do daily inspections on their jeeps, as their survival depended on those being in a good working shape.

So, one of those days, a single bull was attacked by six lions. It was butchered alive and screaming in agony of death for several hours. It was just outside their camp. Nature is cruel, very cruel...

We humans have distanced us quite a bit from nature, that is fine and that is the ground for humanity...

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for the free diagnosis. Given the cost of medical advice here, I surely appreciate it ;)

You seem to frame hunting only as the "joy of killing." I am sure hunters would disagree with such a narrow description, as Kent already explained.

Btw, I am not a hunter. Yet I support hunters. Now, if someone would invite me to hunt with them, for instance Kent, I wouldn't turn it down. I would probably miss, especially birds in flight. I can't even get them sharp with a lens.

I also do not own guns. Yet I support gun ownership. I do not consider most hunters and gun owners as "twisted personalities" or nut jobs.

I do not like the concept of canned hunting. I do not understand how those guys can feel pride for killing in such circumstances. I would find it laughable to see them proudly displaying their trophies, knowing they got them with the same difficulty as taking a candy from a baby.

Having said that, the word "canned" bring another concept to mind: canned laughter in tv comedies. You can call it laughable, and I would agree, but guess what, studies have shown it works (i.e., canned laughter shows generate more viewers than otherwise).

There is also canned "wildlife" photography, where tamed captive animals are trained to pose, even for action shots. Such photographs are rightly prohibited in wildlife photo contests, or at least need to be labeled as such.

I do not understand hunting with a scope. Too easy. However, I just assume I do not know enough about it, as there might be some aspect I am overlooking. Bow and arrow, however...

I agree with Tony that to be considered a sport, there has to be some element of risk, skin in the game, as well as a lot of skills to detect, track and kill with one shot.

But I also do not understand why 100,000 grown-ups come to watch a dozen other grown-ups chase a ball and pay millions for that. I do not understand obsession with celebrities or royal families either.

I do not understand why boxers beat each other to a pulp, even more so UFC fighting, especially women UFC (however, having read Rob's post in the A Touch of Humor thread, post #591, I think I do). I really do not understand this:



I do not understand...

Ok, by now you gathered that I do not understand many things in life. Or do not like, of find sick and disgusting. There are many twisted personalities in this world, weirdos and deviants. Some we celebrate as a Woman of the Year, for some we organize parades.

But I stop there. I do not understand and I do not like, but I do not harass them, call for them to be banned, let alone threaten to or kill them. I do not gloat when they die. Live and let live. I do not think society would be better off without them. I do not have a vision of an ideal society, where everyone does just the right thing, politically correct, where only non-twisted personalities are allowed. And I certainly do not advocate use of force to achieve such society. Because, you see, my version of ideal society would surely differ from yours, my chosen groups might be the exact opposite of yours. Some people, however, believe only they (or their ideology) possess the truth of what is right and wrong and do not hesitate to impose it by force onto others (the unwashed masses).
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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2018, 09:32:39 AM »

Thanks for the free diagnosis. Given the cost of medical advice here, I surely appreciate it ;)

You seem to frame hunting only as the "joy of killing."

Ah, your mistake is in having taken my comments out of context. I suggest reading my original post. If I'd wanted to say that hunting is just the joy of killing, I'd have used different words, 'cos that's how words work. Different words, in different orders and stuff, mean different things, and I mean what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. Happy to help.

Two23

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2018, 09:55:07 AM »

Just a thought…

What does lion meat taste like?

Just asking,


If you've eaten at more than a few Chinese restaurants, you've probably eaten cat.   ;D  I'd assume lion is similar.


Kent in SD
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2018, 10:03:20 AM »

I am annoyed by those people too (and many, many others, but I digress).

But... do you also stop them, harass them, beat the crap out of them? Or if the offender, shortly after throwing things out of the car, ends up in a car accident and dies, do you applaud and claim the society is better off without them? Because that is the parallel of what we are talking about in this thread.

This is an apples to oranges comparison.  Although annoying, trash is an easy to fix problem; you simply pick it up.  When a species becomes extinct, it's not so easy a problem to solve. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 10:07:47 AM by JoeKitchen »
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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2018, 10:05:31 AM »

I am annoyed by those people too (and many, many others, but I digress).

But... do you also stop them, harass them, beat the crap out of them? Or if the offender, shortly after throwing things out of the car, ends up in a car accident and dies, do you applaud and claim the society is better off without them? Because that is the parallel of what we are talking about in this thread.

Slobodan, a story: I was in the passenger seat, riding to an appointment with a friend. We were building a system that involved recorders and software. He was doing the hardware work on the recorders and I was doing the software. We stopped at a traffic light. There was a car with two women in the lane to our left. The gal in the right seat of that car tossed her cigarette out the window. Bill turned to her and said, "Pick that up!" Bill was a really big guy and he could look awfully mean if he wanted to. The gal looked at him and said, "What?" Bill repeated what he'd said. She opened her door and picked up the butt. I'll never forget it. It was beautiful.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2018, 10:07:19 AM »



He was a fellow human being, with a family.  Lots of us (self included) do risky things as a hobby.  I've had some close calls myself in my kayak, racing motorcycles (motorcross/enduros,) and even hiking in the mountains. 


Kent in SD

Yes, but most of us do not have hobbies that involve killing endangered animals just for sport.  I do not wish any human to be killed, but do not think I will morn anyone who is. 
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Joe Kitchen
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