Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: LesPalenik on January 29, 2018, 10:59:42 pm

Title: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: LesPalenik on January 29, 2018, 10:59:42 pm
A 75-year old man was shot dead at a North West captive-bred lion hunting farm in South Africa. Pero Jelinic, from Croatia, and two other Croatians, were hunting captive-bred lions at Leeubosch Lodge near Setlagole, when the incident occurred. The hunting party had already killed a lion, and were tracking a second cat, when Jelinic was struck by a bullet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5325943/Big-game-hunter-killed-stalked-lions-South-Africa.html
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: James Clark on January 29, 2018, 11:05:51 pm
That's too bad.  Sort of. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on January 29, 2018, 11:56:45 pm
It's only fair to give the lions guns, too.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: LesPalenik on January 30, 2018, 01:08:58 am
Coincidentally, I shot yesterday a captive Australian sugar glider. Much less dangerous.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Chairman Bill on January 30, 2018, 04:55:51 am
Oh how very sad, never mind.


I get the idea of hunting for food, but killing things just for the fun of it? That requires a twisted personality. Society is better off without them.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on January 30, 2018, 05:14:18 am
Oh how very sad, never mind.


I get the idea of hunting for food, but killing things just for the fun of it? That requires a twisted personality. Society is better off without them.

So are the animals!
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Otto Phocus on January 30, 2018, 06:26:42 am
So what happened to the second lion????
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on January 30, 2018, 09:40:09 am
Oh how very sad, never mind.


I get the idea of hunting for food, but killing things just for the fun of it? That requires a twisted personality. Society is better off without them.


I wouldn't say "twisted."  One huge aspect you're missing is these sort of places are actually doing some good.  They do increase the gene pool of the animals, and more importantly they are saving large tracts of viable habitat.  What you are calling a "twisted personality" I'm calling a preservationist.  The landowners have found a way to put value on wild animals, and I think in the broad picture they are better off because of that.  The local Sioux Indians here have done something similar.  They have decent sized herds of buffalo on their reservations, and offer "hunts" for them.  While I personally don't see much difference in going out with a .30-06 and shooting a cow out in a field and one of these buffalo "hunts," the Indians I've talked to said they get $5,000 to $7,000 for each critter.  Don't tell anyone from out of state, but I think you could just buy a buffalo for about $1,500, take it back to your farm and shoot it, and save a lot of money.  Neither of these hunts have any appeal to me, but I applaud the Indians for coming up with a clever way to make some needed income, and landowners in Africa for finding a way to preserve habitat.  As for lions, I'd never go out and shoot one, including the wild mountain lions we have in my state.  I'm a cat lover. :)


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 30, 2018, 09:58:28 am
Les, I have to ask what is the point of this post? It has nothing to do with photography, and the moderators said no more politics. It is not political? Just check the usual lefties'gloating over the loss of human life, just because they disagree with their opinion.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Chairman Bill on January 30, 2018, 10:40:16 am
... the usual lefties'gloating over the loss of human life, just because they disagree with their opinion.

Wow. You really do know how to a) misrepresent people, b) make huge generalisations, and c) make things personal when there really is no need. Well done, Slobodan.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on January 30, 2018, 11:09:47 am
Wow. You really do know how to a) misrepresent people, b) make huge generalisations, and c) make things personal when there really is no need. Well done, Slobodan.
+1
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: RSL on January 30, 2018, 11:55:56 am
Here we go again.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 30, 2018, 12:01:44 pm
As they say, s--t happens!

Shooting with a telephoto makes much less harm...

Best regards
Erik


A 75-year old man was shot dead at a North West captive-bred lion hunting farm in South Africa. Pero Jelinic, from Croatia, and two other Croatians, were hunting captive-bred lions at Leeubosch Lodge near Setlagole, when the incident occurred. The hunting party had already killed a lion, and were tracking a second cat, when Jelinic was struck by a bullet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5325943/Big-game-hunter-killed-stalked-lions-South-Africa.html
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 30, 2018, 12:59:20 pm
Wow. You really do know how to a) misrepresent people, b) make huge generalisations, and c) make things personal when there really is no need. Well done, Slobodan.

So sorry that the truth hurts.

Who was saying, sarcastically "how very sad'? Who was generalizing that sport hunters have "twisted personality"? Who was saying that "the society is better off without them"?

A Michigan dentist who (legally) shot a lion with bow and arrow had to go into hiding because of death threats. In a recent Hollywood movie, one of the heroes' definition of "sport hunting" was to use a sniper rifle against bow & arrow lion hunters. So what am I misrepresenting?
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on January 30, 2018, 01:07:10 pm
Nothing to do with politics; everything to do with cruelty to animals.

Did any of you see Jean-Claude van Damme's one good movie, Hard Target? It offered a wonderful alternative for hunting which, at a stroke, would also help with human conservation, if such concepts are applicable to all animals. A fine culling is such a sweet idea, don't you think, especially when it's a consensual contract between the parties.

Rob
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on January 30, 2018, 01:08:12 pm
Here we go again.
+1
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on January 30, 2018, 01:09:59 pm
Participation in CC is optional; why attempt to deny all users when only two topics, politics and religion, are taboo?

Frankly, if it falls victim to political correctness, then the attraction of LuLa is diminished to a considerable degree; it may cease to remain the attractive place that it currently is.

As for my being a "leftie", I think anyone on the left will have fainted on reading that statement! Which might not be all bad!  ;-)  -  just a little joke!

Rob
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on January 30, 2018, 01:10:40 pm
So what am I misrepresenting?
The other posters here, none of the "facts" you state as a defense for your accusation have been done by anybody on this forum.

Btw, I'm not even a lefty, so I don't feel personally insulted by your comment, I just think it's a new low in here.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: James Clark on January 30, 2018, 01:46:27 pm
Les, I have to ask what is the point of this post? It has nothing to do with photography, and the moderators said no more politics. It is not political? Just check the usual lefties'gloating over the loss of human life, just because they disagree with their opinion.

To be clear, I'm not gloating over the loss of a human life.  I'm not anti-gun, nor am I a PETA sympathizer.  I do not elevate animals over humans. This is not a political issue.  In fact, this is a very, very difficult position for me intellectually.  I abhor the taking of a human life.  I believe it's wrong for an individual to take a life, and I believe it's wrong for the state to take a life.  I don't celebrate the loss of the life referenced in the OP, and I believe it's a tragedy for the people who loved Mr. Jelinic.

That said, I find sport hunting cruel, and I think very little of people who find pleasure in ending the life of a living creature for no better reason than to hang a trophy on their walls.  We are (we think) unique in the world in that we are able to understand, empathize and alter our actions accordingly.  So while, as I said, I do not elevate animals over humans, I DO believe that humans have the ability to rationalize and consider purpose while animals do not, and with that comes a responsibility to empathize.  Mr. Jelinic cared not for the fear, pain and suffering caused another creature, and his loss means that another creature my survive to live another day or three.

That pleases me, just as the pain felt by HIS loved ones and the denial of the rest of his natural life saddens me.  There's a fairly-easy-to-imagine world in which Mr. Jelinic AND the cats in question would still be alive.  That both are gone is a failure.  Animals should be shot with lenses, nothing more.

Hopefully this offers a more comprehensive understanding that won't be written of as "leftist gloating."
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on January 30, 2018, 01:58:43 pm
Well, I guess I did try to completely avoid any of the ad hominem stuff and simply offer a broader point of view.  I too lament the tendency for things to quickly get personal.



Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 30, 2018, 02:01:49 pm
James, you seem to have overlooked the post by “Kent in SD.” There are other, legitimate and legal reasons for hunting.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: James Clark on January 30, 2018, 02:14:18 pm
I didn't overlook it, and I'm intimately familiar with that argument.  There ARE legitimate reasons for hunting, including population control, prevention of invasive species etc.   

Keeping land open and species around because some people think it's fun to kill them isn't exactly a "+" in the humanity column in my book.  Sport hunting may have the beneficial side effect of species propagation and land conservation, but causing fear and pain for fun *isn't necessary* for those things to happen. 

Will I concede that it might be better for sport hunting to continue if the other alternative is the loss of species and habitat?  Sure - I can admit that.   It's just far from optimal IMO. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: LesPalenik on January 30, 2018, 03:06:13 pm
Les, I have to ask what is the point of this post? It has nothing to do with photography, and the moderators said no more politics. It is not political? Just check the usual lefties'gloating over the loss of human life, just because they disagree with their opinion.

Well, it's just so happens that the hunters will shoot the animal also with their point-and-shoot camera or phone. But only after they killed it safely from a truck or a hide.
But the real reason why I posted that news item is to show what's happening on the other side of the photographic safaris. Nothing to do with politics or sympathies for lefties.
BTW, that dentist's lion was lured out from its sanctuary in a national park. So if the hunters can't get a real trophy on a lion farm, they will pay and kill a bigger trophy wherever they can find it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/walter-palmer-dentist-and-lion-slayer-now-on-the-internet-hunt-list-1.3173233
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Chairman Bill on January 30, 2018, 05:05:10 pm
So sorry that the truth hurts.

Who was saying, sarcastically "how very sad'? Who was generalizing that sport hunters have "twisted personality"? Who was saying that "the society is better off without them"?

That was me. Generalising from one instance? Really?

A Michigan dentist who (legally) shot a lion with bow and arrow had to go into hiding because of death threats. In a recent Hollywood movie, one of the heroes' definition of "sport hunting" was to use a sniper rifle against bow & arrow lion hunters. So what am I misrepresenting?
Again, you're generalising from a limited amount of data.

Oh, and if you enjoy killing things, there really is something wrong with you.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Tony Jay on January 30, 2018, 07:26:38 pm

I wouldn't say "twisted."  One huge aspect you're missing is these sort of places are actually doing some good.  They do increase the gene pool of the animals, and more importantly they are saving large tracts of viable habitat.  What you are calling a "twisted personality" I'm calling a preservationist.  The landowners have found a way to put value on wild animals, and I think in the broad picture they are better off because of that.  The local Sioux Indians here have done something similar.  They have decent sized herds of buffalo on their reservations, and offer "hunts" for them.  While I personally don't see much difference in going out with a .30-06 and shooting a cow out in a field and one of these buffalo "hunts," the Indians I've talked to said they get $5,000 to $7,000 for each critter.  Don't tell anyone from out of state, but I think you could just buy a buffalo for about $1,500, take it back to your farm and shoot it, and save a lot of money.  Neither of these hunts have any appeal to me, but I applaud the Indians for coming up with a clever way to make some needed income, and landowners in Africa for finding a way to preserve habitat.  As for lions, I'd never go out and shoot one, including the wild mountain lions we have in my state.  I'm a cat lover. :)


Kent in SD
This is unbelievable nonsense!

There are hundreds of examples in South Africa (and other countries within Africa where landowners have found a way to give value to wildlife - they are called game reserves!
In South Arica, at least, most of the land set aside for conservation is private. It is not government owned.
Those reserves, by and large, are massive money spinners.
The wildlife on these reserves lives and dies naturally.

Those canned hunting safaris are nothing like this at all.
Animals are bred in captivity - and in the case of lions and other large cats, in particular - are actually caged. For a hunt they are released into what could be termed a large field. At this point they are shot.
This is NOT conservation. It is not even hunting... (see below)
Ask anyone in South Africa who is actually invested in conservation in that country and one will discover that those people who run canned hunting concerns are, to put it diplomatically, seriously on the nose!
Furthermore, these conservationists are not citified lefty-loony types. The owners of these private game reserves, by and large, were once cattlemen, who were themselves avid hunters, but realised that the real value of wildlife was in a live animal, who could be viewed and photographed on multiple occasions, rather than a dead animal hanging on a wall.

Many of the private game reserves in South Africa are within a couple of hundred kilometres of the property referred to in the OP. In the early 1980's a massive drought destroyed the cattle industry in this area. Despite several years of drought the wildlife survived. Many of the former cattle farmers got the hint. They started game farming, but quickly realised that much more money could be made from tourism. Although private conservation was alive and well prior to this time in South Africa that drought finally killed off many of the unsustainable and silly land-use practices then in operation in South Africa and gave a huge boost to private conservation. Many individual farms were consolidated into single land tracts that made much more sense from a conservation perspective. Large game, such as elephants and rhino, could be introduced along with large predators.

Nothing in the above description of 'canned' hunting ever even classifies as the SPORT of hunting. Sport hunting requires the on-foot tracking and hunting of WILD animals in their own habitat that are free to act as they see fit. In Africa, it is not unknown for these actions to result in the death of the hunter. The term 'Big Five' comes from the experience of hunting where the animals so designated were responsible for the overwhelming percentage of hunters killed while hunting. However, forward-looking countries in Africa (see below) are banning even sport hunting...

Fundamentally, the argument for hunting, sport or canned, as a necessary component of conservation is spurious, misinformed, and often downright disingenuous. Botswana, once home to a massive hunting industry, has recently banned all hunting. Firstly, compared to tourists using a camera on safari, the income was relatively small. Secondly, global attitudes toward hunting have changed over the decades, and Botswana, seeing the writing on the wall, correctly decided to ban hunting.

Conservation means just that - to conserve; not to kill or destroy.
BTW culling is not hunting. A cull may become necessary to protect that species and others and to maintain the ecological viability of the land. Culling of predators is never necessary in this equation since they represent such small numbers in the overall ecology and their numbers rise and fall depending on prey availability. Furthermore the best solution to preventing culling is to have larger tracts of land set aside for conservation. This allows wildlife to move to where water and food is located. This process of consolidation of conservation land is still in progress in South Africa (and other countries in Southern Africa for that matter), both from a government and private perspective, but may not ever be satisfactorily completed.

Hunting, especially the 'canned' variety, mentioned in the OP runs hopelessly counter to any of the principles of conservation and the only effect is that of harm...
Please do not confuse the selfish outdated views of a few South African businessmen peddling 'canned' hunting as the 'real thing' to equally selfish and deluded clients with more money than sense as representing conservation in any sense of the  word!

Also, it would be unrealistic to expect the South African government to act decisively on the matter. Currently the ruling party, the ANC, is currently hopelessly mired in its own party politics and the urgent business of the country is currently relegated to irrelevancy. On a related topic the huge disaster of an out-of-control poaching epidemic in the country (a problem exponentially bigger than the admittedly stinky canned hunting industry) is directly related to the out-of-control corruption that has infected every government agency in the country.

Disclaimer: If you are wondering how I could know about all this, I was born and raised in South Africa. I always had a keen interest in nature and conservation and so staying informed about issues such as those raised in this thread are second nature.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: JoeKitchen on January 30, 2018, 08:41:59 pm
Man, some of you take this too serious as a political debate. 

Anyway, just my two cents, as a conservative, I see no reason to morn this man. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on January 30, 2018, 09:59:41 pm
Man, some of you take this too serious as a political debate. 

Anyway, just my two cents, as a conservative, I see no reason to morn this man.



He was a fellow human being, with a family.  Lots of us (self included) do risky things as a hobby.  I've had some close calls myself in my kayak, racing motorcycles (motorcross/enduros,) and even hiking in the mountains. 


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 30, 2018, 10:37:43 pm
Tony, that was an unbelievable nonsense.

Do you guys in South Africa have a term for straw man?
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on January 31, 2018, 01:24:32 am
Slobodan, what do you mean by that comment?

Lost for thought,
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Schewe on January 31, 2018, 01:25:28 am
A Michigan dentist who (legally) shot a lion with bow and arrow had to go into hiding because of death threats.

Well...

Minnesota dentist 'deeply' regrets 'taking' Cecil the lion (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/28/minnesota-dentist-walter-james-palmer-cecil-lion-africa/30785881/)

...maybe that the dentist wasn't from Michigan?

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good story, right?
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: LesPalenik on January 31, 2018, 01:56:12 am
Quote
Since the 1980s, the population of African lions has dropped from 100,000 individuals all the way to 20,000. And while the wild numbers of lions are decreasing, the number of captive-bred lions used for canned hunts has only increased.

In South Africa, there are about 200 breeding facilities which account for the captivity of nearly 8,000 predators. It is thought that approximately 1,000 of these animals are lions. According to people behind the documentary “Blood Lions,” facilities that breed captive lions claim that these breeding farms take pressure off of wild predator populations – but there is little to no evidence that this is the case. In addition, any claims that these captive bred lion populations benefit conservation efforts are also false. The lions kept in these facilities have been inbred over generations, meaning that if their genes were mixed into wild prides, it could have a devastating impact on the survival of the species.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/why-there-are-thousands-of-lions-in-south-africa-but-this-species-is-still-in-danger-of-extinction/
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on January 31, 2018, 02:16:29 am
Tony, that was an unbelievable nonsense.

Do you guys in South Africa have a term for straw man?
Sounds to me like a populist strawman defence once he's out of real arguments: "I have big hands, believe me, I have the biggest hands in the universe"

Tony's story makes perfect sense, which doesn't mean you have to agree with it. But if you don't agree the omen is on you to provide logical counter arguments because statements like these only undermine your own credibility.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Tony Jay on January 31, 2018, 03:23:56 am
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/why-there-are-thousands-of-lions-in-south-africa-but-this-species-is-still-in-danger-of-extinction/
These captive lions cannot be released into the wild - they would simply die...
Certainly none would survive long enough to breed.

Occasionally captive lions (and other large cats) have been rehabilitated back into the wild but it is a long, and expensive, business to do this. The situation with lions is especially difficult because, they, unlike most cat species that are solitary, are pride animals. This means that either lions have to be released into areas devoid of other lions, or they have to be rehabilitated as a group in order to function as a pride. I am not aware of any successful group rehabilitations of lions into viable prides in the wild. If anyone knows of a successful example of this it would be good news indeed!

It is absolutely correct that the 'canned' hunting of captive lions has done nothing to halt the wholesale destruction of the wild lion population across Africa. This kind of activity is anathema to any conservationist, and even the 'real' sport hunters will have nothing to do with those who engage in this kind of activity.

I stand by my assertion that the people who are arranging the 'canned' hunting safaris as well as their clients are selfish individuals who care nothing for conservation. Their currency, literally, is blood money, certainly not principle. Africa, in general, and South Africa specifically can do without them. Certainly, it becomes very hard to convince poor Africans on the edge of poverty not to hunt (poach) a rhino or an elephant where a single tusk or horn represents a year, or more, in income to them not to do these things when rich foreigners can shoot and kill the same wildlife, apparently legally...
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: William Walker on January 31, 2018, 04:00:40 am
near Setlagole,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5325943/Big-game-hunter-killed-stalked-lions-South-Africa.html

My grandfather owned the Hotel and Trading Store at Setlagole (which is all Setlagole consists of!), and my father bought the business from him and later sold up in 1974.

Most South Africans can't stand the idea of "Canned Hunting" but, there is always a willing seller and a willing buyer (mostly from overseas....)

Finally, we are on the map!  :-\ (This incident happened on one of the farms up the road. It used to all be maize-farming country but is best suited for cattle.)

The Picture is from a slide my mother took of the hotel section about sixty years ago.

William
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on January 31, 2018, 04:50:47 am
Hunting for pleasure is a manifestation of stunted mental growth, or worse.

When I was in my early teens, in a boarding school in India, I was guest at a fellow prisoner's home on a tea plantation. As with other kids, we were adept at the illegal fabrication of catapults fashioned from eucalyptus tree twigs and rubber bands cut from bus or truck tyres (our shoes sometimes miraculously lost their leather tongues). The rubber was hard to find, and the best was classifed as "unlimited stretch" which obviously demonstrated how little we knew about the nature of rubber.

Anyway, during that holiday on the plantation we shot quite a few very pretty birds and skinned them. A kind of butterly collection, you might say. We thougt nothing of it. Decades later, I look forward to feeding crumbs to the winter robins - if they come at all. I don't remember seeing a single one so far this year... When I used to stack wood for the fire, one of these lovely little beings would fly over beside me and remain about two feet distant, pecking at spiders or bugs or whatever it was it found on the wood. The thought of destroying such a creature made me want to weep, both for it and for my past errors of insensitivity to fellow life.

That represents the difference between mindless murder and the sense of shared responsibility for, and ultimate oneness with, that all life shares. It's a shame it takes a few years to get to that point of recognition. Kids can claim ignorance; an adult?

Rob
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on January 31, 2018, 04:58:35 am
Sad story of an accidental death.

Legal hunting is a good business. Here in Portugal we have areas just for that. It helps to control some species, like wild boars.

Morally I am against it, but these issues are not black and white, and taking extreme positions never solved anything.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: LesPalenik on January 31, 2018, 05:41:40 am
About 600,000 wild boars are killed each year in Germany. Experts say that is not enough to stop the population from growing.  In Berlin alone the wild boar population is estimated at somewhere between 3,000 and 8,000. Many wild boars carry the African Swine Fever (ASF). The German Farmers’ Association called on Friday for 70 percent of the country’s wild boar population to be culled so as to reduce the chances of a spread of illness to domestic pig population. The wild boars kill, injure and terrorize joggers, mothers with baby cariages, and even hunters.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/04/hunter-dies-in-germany-after-wild-boar-he-was-trying-to-shoot-attacked-him

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/10/21/wild-boars-terrorize-german-town-injure-4/787155001/



 

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Robert Roaldi on January 31, 2018, 07:30:43 am
Just one comment about this thread. It did NOT start out as overtly political but some contributors tried to make it so, which led to some (maybe the same people) to state that it should be closed, and they did so pretty early on, and this did not seem warranted to me. I mean, this is the Coffee Corner. Getting rid of offensive insulting threads is one thing, but this one was not so and does not seem to be headed that way (so far).

At the risk of being repetitious, you can always not participate if you don't like a thread, but demanding that it be closed, without good reason, is going a little far. It's true that this thread does have any obvious photographic connection (although it would be interesting to see what would happen to this kind of, to my mind, phoney hunting if photos were taken and made public), but I thought the purpose of the Coffee Corner was to be more relaxed than that. I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 08:06:21 am
Well...

Minnesota dentist 'deeply' regrets 'taking' Cecil the lion (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/28/minnesota-dentist-walter-james-palmer-cecil-lion-africa/30785881/)

...maybe that the dentist wasn't from Michigan?

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good story, right?

That is known as a smart-ass comment, Jeff. And exactly how does that fact change anything of importance? Yes, he was from another state that starts with “M” so what?
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on January 31, 2018, 08:38:56 am
That is known as a smart-ass comment, Jeff. And exactly how does that fact change anything of importance? Yes, he was from another state that starts with “M” so what?

That's known as a diversion tactic ;)

Well, the real question is how did the fact that he lured the Lion with a trail of food to the right place for a shoot change anything? I think that makes him an A$$ irrespective of which state he is coming from.

But I agree, wishing him dead is way over the top, but calling him for what he is if fine by me. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on January 31, 2018, 09:30:13 am
Hunting for pleasure is a manifestation of stunted mental growth, or worse.



I disagree.  I believe it's an inherited part of being human.  To a degree, it's hardwired into our make up, just as myy well fed cat still catches small varmints on occasion. It was eating protein rich meat that allowed our brains to grow back when we were swinging from trees in Africa.  I think it's an integral part of the culture you're from.  I grew up on a farm (still own it), and still live in a very rural state.  Even the women will go out and shoot a bird or two.  I am well educated (post grad degree), respected by those who know me, and still constantly seek to expand myself.  If you want to attempt to make a case that I'm somehow "stunted" because I go out a few times a year and shoot a duck or two, I suggest that shows an intolerance for those from a place and culture different from your own. ;)


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 09:56:29 am
Exactly, Kent.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 09:59:06 am
Slobodan, what do you mean by that comment?

Lost for thought,

Tom. I will explain when I find a bit more time. I write these one-liners from work.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on January 31, 2018, 10:27:57 am

I disagree.  I believe it's an inherited part of being human.  To a degree, it's hardwired into our make up, just as myy well fed cat still catches small varmints on occasion. It was eating protein rich meat that allowed our brains to grow back when we were swinging from trees in Africa.  I think it's an integral part of the culture you're from.  I grew up on a farm (still own it), and still live in a very rural state.  Even the women will go out and shoot a bird or two.  I am well educated (post grad degree), respected by those who know me, and still constantly seek to expand myself.  If you want to attempt to make a case that I'm somehow "stunted" because I go out a few times a year and shoot a duck or two, I suggest that shows an intolerance for those from a place and culture different from your own. ;)


Kent in SD
I agree, there's little harm in the type of hunting you describe here, even though I personally prefer photography over shooting with guns (or arching)

However I think there is a difference with "canned" hunting for trophies in Africa which I find more questionable, but if people want to do it it's up to them. If people get killed by accident in such an adventure that is obviously to be regretted, but no different than lots of other fatal accidents while being involved in different activities.

But the example where an endangered species is lured from a reserve by a food trail, wounded by an archer who then trusts his "asistants" to finish off the job with guns, but still poses with his trophy if he has killed it singlehandedly is far over the top for me (the luring, wounding, killing and posing)
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Peter McLennan on January 31, 2018, 12:04:22 pm
I shot a squirrel once with a .22 when I was a kid.  Bugged me for days after.  That was enough for me.
Killing animals for fun is for me incomprehensible.

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on January 31, 2018, 12:39:58 pm

I disagree.  I believe it's an inherited part of being human.  To a degree, it's hardwired into our make up, just as myy well fed cat still catches small varmints on occasion. It was eating protein rich meat that allowed our brains to grow back when we were swinging from trees in Africa.  I think it's an integral part of the culture you're from.  I grew up on a farm (still own it), and still live in a very rural state.  Even the women will go out and shoot a bird or two.  I am well educated (post grad degree), respected by those who know me, and still constantly seek to expand myself.  If you want to attempt to make a case that I'm somehow "stunted" because I go out a few times a year and shoot a duck or two, I suggest that shows an intolerance for those from a place and culture different from your own. ;)


Kent in SD


Where's your problem? Shooting ducks to eat is obviously a zillion miles from shooting large mammals which are far different things to ducks, and if you are not going to put said large beasts into the pot, you deprive yourself of the only valid excuse there may be. Culling, at least in Scotland, is usually the preserve of skilled gamekeepers who know how and what to shoot humanely. Unsurprisingly, one seldom hears about them having shot one another. At least, by accident.


But beyond that, equating the wiring of present-day man with the hunter-for-survival of yesteryear is disingenuous in the extreme, as you probably know perfect well. We are all, on that basis, wired to rape our neighbour's wife and justifiably so (!) in order to perpetuate our own set of genes. Would you buy that, then? Hardly; it doesn't conveniently fit the paradigm you wish to half-justify for other ancient instincts.

A pet cat, as I know about from the gang of over thirty semi-wild ones we once found ourselves feeding, is not on the same emotionally developed level as even a dog. You can read something in a cat's eyes? I can imagine that I read something in the behaviour patterns of a horse I have recently become new best friends with, but in truth, anthropomorphism aside, I know it's really love for the carrots. Quoting cat behaviour as attempt to draw simile with human behaviour is silly. I hope you think we are further evolved than that!

Actually, the huntin' and fishin' ethos you allude to is not that foreign to my experience; family in Scotland were always fishing their local farmer-friend's stretch of river and shooting rabbit. But hey, they - and we - dined well when we visited. I never hit a thing with the .22 other than the ground or possibly an innocent bush or tree. And that was before I discovered my more compassionate side.

If dislike for people murdering animals with no intention of eating them means intolerance, yes, then I buy that with some small pride. I am as intolerant of people who throw shit out of the car as they drive, or those morons who chew gum and drop it on the pavement. I will not comment on the chewing of gum; I think that says all that need be said all by itself. Singapore had a great intolerance for that! :-)

Rob
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: KLaban on January 31, 2018, 12:41:46 pm
I shot a squirrel once with a .22 when I was a kid.  Bugged me for days after.  That was enough for me.
Killing animals for fun is for me incomprehensible.

As a kid influenced by peer pressure I shot a bird, I've never forgotten the guilt I felt after the event and still regret it now.

I simply cannot understand why anyone would want to kill such a magnificent beast as a lion. Just sick.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on January 31, 2018, 12:49:36 pm
As a kid influenced by peer pressure I shot a bird, I've never forgotten the guilt I felt after the event and still regret it now.

I simply cannot understand why anyone would want to kill such a magnificent beast as a lion. Just sick.


Ditto, but murder by catapult. I regret my skinned, dead birds but I was probably fourteen at the time... if that absolves me today of guilt on behalf of then.

:-(
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Robert Roaldi on January 31, 2018, 02:22:22 pm

Where's your problem? Shooting ducks to eat is obviously a zillion miles from shooting large mammals which are far different things to ducks, and if you are not going to put said large beasts into the pot, you deprive yourself of the only valid excuse there may be. Culling, at least in Scotland, is usually the preserve of skilled gamekeepers who know how and what to shoot humanely. Unsurprisingly, one seldom hears about them having shot one another. At least, by accident.


But beyond that, equating the wiring of present-day man with the hunter-for-survival of yesteryear is disingenuous in the extreme, as you probably know perfect well. We are all, on that basis, wired to rape our neighbour's wife and justifiably so (!) in order to perpetuate our own set of genes. Would you buy that, then? Hardly; it doesn't conveniently fit the paradigm you wish to half-justify for other ancient instincts.

A pet cat, as I know about from the gang of over thirty semi-wild ones we once found ourselves feeding, is not on the same emotionally developed level as even a dog. You can read something in a cat's eyes? I can imagine that I read something in the behaviour patterns of a horse I have recently become new best friends with, but in truth, anthropomorphism aside, I know it's really love for the carrots. Quoting cat behaviour as attempt to draw simile with human behaviour is silly. I hope you think we are further evolved than that!

Actually, the huntin' and fishin' ethos you allude to is not that foreign to my experience; family in Scotland were always fishing their local farmer-friend's stretch of river and shooting rabbit. But hey, they - and we - dined well when we visited. I never hit a thing with the .22 other than the ground or possibly an innocent bush or tree. And that was before I discovered my more compassionate side.

If dislike for people murdering animals with no intention of eating them means intolerance, yes, then I buy that with some small pride. I am as intolerant of people who throw shit out of the car as they drive, or those morons who chew gum and drop it on the pavement. I will not comment on the chewing of gum; I think that says all that need be said all by itself. Singapore had a great intolerance for that! :-)

Rob

I'm with you 100% on the gum chewing thing. :)

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on January 31, 2018, 03:10:23 pm
I think this thread has wandered too far into gun control territory.

If you want to kill things, come to Australia.

We have feral pigs, horses, camels, foxes, dogs, cats, water buffaloes, rabbits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgPhn4tYxJQ) and a few others. Plus you can have the chance to shoot a skippy or two or three or more.

Bye the way, if you are in America there is a good chance that you have given your dog/cat kangaroo meat at some time.

Enough said,
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Farmer on January 31, 2018, 04:46:13 pm
I think this thread has wandered too far into gun control territory.

If you want to kill things, come to Australia.

We have feral pigs, horses, camels, foxes, dogs, cats, water buffaloes, rabbits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgPhn4tYxJQ) and a few others. Plus you can have the chance to shoot a skippy or two or three or more.

Bye the way, if you are in America there is a good chance that you have given your dog/cat kangaroo meat at some time.

Enough said,

You can't shoot roos without a licence.  All native fauna is protected and it's a criminal offence to injure or kill without a licence or lawful excuse (generally threat to life).  I haven't checked, but I doubt you're allowed to hunt brumbies (wild horses) and you cannot hunt cats or dogs, even if suspected of being feral.  Rabbits, yes, pigs, yes.  Buffaloes?  Maybe, but mostly they're bred and you can't hunt them on private land without permission and not sure about on Crown land.

There is commercial hunting, of course, licenced for population control of certain species and there is recreational hunting of numerous introduced species.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Tony Jay on January 31, 2018, 05:38:42 pm
You can't shoot roos without a licence.  All native fauna is protected and it's a criminal offence to injure or kill without a licence or lawful excuse (generally threat to life).  I haven't checked, but I doubt you're allowed to hunt brumbies (wild horses) and you cannot hunt cats or dogs, even if suspected of being feral.  Rabbits, yes, pigs, yes.  Buffaloes?  Maybe, but mostly they're bred and you can't hunt them on private land without permission and not sure about on Crown land.

There is commercial hunting, of course, licenced for population control of certain species and there is recreational hunting of numerous introduced species.
Absolutely!
Rightly or wrongly it is not open slather here in Australia...
Australia is the the most regulated country on the planet - right down to the length of the grass in one's backyard.
Never get the impression that you can come here and just start blasting away at whatever takes your fancy.
As Phil has said nearly all wildlife is completely off limits for hunting.
Pest control in stock farming areas is allowed but is also strictly controlled with licenses and quota's.

Recreational hunting is only allowed for selected feral species and is also strictly controlled by permits and quotas.
Even owning the weapons is strictly regulated here.....

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 05:59:50 pm
... I am as intolerant of people who throw shit out of the car as they drive, or those morons who chew gum and drop it on the pavement...

I am annoyed by those people too (and many, many others, but I digress).

But... do you also stop them, harass them, beat the crap out of them? Or if the offender, shortly after throwing things out of the car, ends up in a car accident and dies, do you applaud and claim the society is better off without them? Because that is the parallel of what we are talking about in this thread.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on January 31, 2018, 07:50:24 pm
Absolutely!
Rightly or wrongly it is not open slather here in Australia...
Australia is the the most regulated country on the planet - right down to the length of the grass in one's backyard.
Never get the impression that you can come here and just start blasting away at whatever takes your fancy.
As Phil has said nearly all wildlife is completely off limits for hunting.
Pest control in stock farming areas is allowed but is also strictly controlled with licenses and quota's.

Recreational hunting is only allowed for selected feral species and is also strictly controlled by permits and quotas.
Even owning the weapons is strictly regulated here.....

Tony Jay

I think you missed my point. This thread has wandered into gun control territory. That thread was locked along with a number of others. The last words seemed to be "NOTICE is served".

Cheers,
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on January 31, 2018, 08:52:25 pm
I agree, there's little harm in the type of hunting you describe here, even though I personally prefer photography over shooting with guns (or arching)

However I think there is a difference with "canned" hunting for trophies in Africa which I find more questionable, but if people want to do it it's up to them. If people get killed by accident in such an adventure that is obviously to be regretted, but no different than lots of other fatal accidents while being involved in different activities.

But the example where an endangered species is lured from a reserve by a food trail, wounded by an archer who then trusts his "asistants" to finish off the job with guns, but still poses with his trophy if he has killed it singlehandedly is far over the top for me (the luring, wounding, killing and posing)


We are in total agreement.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on January 31, 2018, 09:01:00 pm

Where's your problem? Shooting ducks to eat is obviously a zillion miles from shooting large mammals which are far different things to ducks....


Don't tell anybody, but I generally also shoot either an antelope (out West) or a deer (on my farm) every autumn.  And, I once shot an elk in one of our state parks.  (They sell licenses to control population and the proceeds stay with the park.)

I will also once again bring up the point that our culture/background makes a significant difference.  Anyone growing up on a farm quickly learns it's unwise to get emotionally attached to the animals you raise. :(


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 10:00:24 pm
... Tony's story makes perfect sense, which doesn't mean you have to agree with it. But if you don't agree the omen is on you to provide logical counter arguments because statements like these only undermine your own credibility.

It might make sense, but only partially.

My comment about Tony's post being "unbelievable nonsense" was  meant as a rhetorical device, to turn the table for his use of the same phrase to dismiss Kent's post without a shred of evidence or counterargument (apart from a straw man one). The fact that there are other ways to deal with wildlife, like game reserves, does not invalidate canned or sport hunting, as long as legitimate. That's a non sequitur argument.

Quote
Nothing in the above description of 'canned' hunting ever even classifies as the SPORT of hunting. Sport hunting requires the on-foot tracking and hunting of WILD animals in their own habitat that are free to act as they see fit. In Africa, it is not unknown for these actions to result in the death of the hunter.

Agreed.

Quote
BTW culling is not hunting.

Creating one's own definitions to suit the argument.

Quote
Fundamentally, the argument for hunting, sport or canned, as a necessary component of conservation is spurious, misinformed, and often downright disingenuous... Hunting, especially the 'canned' variety, mentioned in the OP runs hopelessly counter to any of the principles of conservation

Straw man. Who said that hunting, even the canned variety, has to abide by the principles of  conservation? There are other, legitimate reasons for both.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Alan Klein on January 31, 2018, 10:10:40 pm
Here we go again.
Well, we need a fix.  It's been awhile since they shut down the climate thread.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on January 31, 2018, 10:20:55 pm
I thought I would stop, I know I should stop, I know I should stop, I know I should stop.

But does straw man = fake news.  :)

Cheers,

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 10:44:40 pm
... does straw man = fake news.  :)

No, straw man is a logical fallacy:

straw man
ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
1.
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.:

The term comes from the military practicing bayonet use on straw men:

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/04/bayonet%204.jpg)

Of course, once in a real fight, with a real opponent, one would soon realize that it was much easier to defeat a straw man.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: James Clark on January 31, 2018, 10:48:01 pm

Creating one's own definitions to suit the argument.


And yet, were the story about a game warden killed while practicing appropriate wildlife management, I suspect that would be much less controversial.   Tony's really not the one stretching definitions here.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 11:07:04 pm
... Oh, and if you enjoy killing things, there really is something wrong with you.

Thanks for the free diagnosis. Given the cost of medical advice here, I surely appreciate it ;)

You seem to frame hunting only as the "joy of killing." I am sure hunters would disagree with such a narrow description, as Kent already explained.

Btw, I am not a hunter. Yet I support hunters. Now, if someone would invite me to hunt with them, for instance Kent, I wouldn't turn it down. I would probably miss, especially birds in flight. I can't even get them sharp with a lens.

I also do not own guns. Yet I support gun ownership. I do not consider most hunters and gun owners as "twisted personalities" or nut jobs.

I do not like the concept of canned hunting. I do not understand how those guys can feel pride for killing in such circumstances. I would find it laughable to see them proudly displaying their trophies, knowing they got them with the same difficulty as taking a candy from a baby.

Having said that, the word "canned" bring another concept to mind: canned laughter in tv comedies. You can call it laughable, and I would agree, but guess what, studies have shown it works (i.e., canned laughter shows generate more viewers than otherwise).

There is also canned "wildlife" photography, where tamed captive animals are trained to pose, even for action shots. Such photographs are rightly prohibited in wildlife photo contests, or at least need to be labeled as such.

I do not understand hunting with a scope. Too easy. However, I just assume I do not know enough about it, as there might be some aspect I am overlooking. Bow and arrow, however...

I agree with Tony that to be considered a sport, there has to be some element of risk, skin in the game, as well as a lot of skills to detect, track and kill with one shot.

But I also do not understand why 100,000 grown-ups come to watch a dozen other grown-ups chase a ball and pay millions for that. I do not understand obsession with celebrities or royal families either.

I do not understand why boxers beat each other to a pulp, even more so UFC fighting, especially women UFC (however, having read Rob's post in the A Touch of Humor thread, post #591, I think I do). I really do not understand this:

(https://cdn.mmaweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Cris-Cyborg-punches-Holly-Holm-at-UFC-219-UFC-Photo.jpg)

I do not understand...

Ok, by now you gathered that I do not understand many things in life. Or do not like, of find sick and disgusting. There are many twisted personalities in this world, weirdos and deviants. Some we celebrate as a Woman of the Year, for some we organize parades.

But I stop there. I do not understand and I do not like, but I do not harass them, call for them to be banned, let alone threaten to or kill them. I do not gloat when they die. Live and let live. I do not think society would be better off without them. I do not have a vision of an ideal society, where everyone does just the right thing, politically correct, where only non-twisted personalities are allowed. And I certainly do not advocate use of force to achieve such society. Because, you see, my version of ideal society would surely differ from yours, my chosen groups might be the exact opposite of yours. Some people, however, believe only they (or their ideology) possess the truth of what is right and wrong and do not hesitate to impose it by force onto others (the unwashed masses).



Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 31, 2018, 11:08:30 pm
And yet, were the story about a game warden killed while practicing appropriate wildlife management, I suspect that would be much less controversial.   Tony's really not the one stretching definitions here.

Huh? You lost me here.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on January 31, 2018, 11:34:59 pm

I do not understand hunting with a scope. Too easy. However, I just assume I do not know enough about it, as there might be some aspect I am overlooking.


On the Northern Plains there are miles and miles of....miles and miles.  It's flat, wide open short grass.  Try hitting an antelope 400-500 yards away without a scope on your gun.  Antelope look like tiny dots at that distance.   Yes, Custer did it with a .45/70 when he lived in North Dakota back in the 1870s, but he had many weeks to do it rather than just a few days.  My scope?  A 3x9 Nikon Monarch, of course. :D


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on February 01, 2018, 12:13:54 am
Just a thought…

What does lion meat taste like?

Just asking,
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on February 01, 2018, 12:34:31 am
I've just had an evil thought. In Australia we kill kangaroos and wild pigs for pet food.

One of the biggest killers of Australian wildlife is feral cats. What if we could make an industry to kill feral cats to feed our cats and dogs?

I don't know what to say,
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Farmer on February 01, 2018, 01:48:48 am
I've just had an evil thought. In Australia we kill kangaroos and wild pigs for pet food.

One of the biggest killers of Australian wildlife is feral cats. What if we could make an industry to kill feral cats to feed our cats and dogs?

I don't know what to say,

People also eat kangaroo, it's bloody delicious!  Stir fry works very well (quick cooking since it's such a lean meat), or to make burgers (because you can mix it up with some oils/fats/stuff).

As to the cat vs native animal issue - the main report relied on by people to make that claim is a metadata study that extrapolates from a very small sample to make its claims and does so by brandishing large numbers of supposed kills without ever mentioning what the actual population is.  To put things in perspective in terms of animal numbers, there is a bit of ocean near Norway where a yearly occurrence of herring sees numbers around a billion.  So when someone says cats (feral or domestic) kill a few hundred million various animals a year, unless someone provides details of how many there are to start and what their reproduction rate is like, it's meaningless at best and a deliberately misleading agenda at worst.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on February 01, 2018, 02:44:33 am
I am annoyed by those people too (and many, many others, but I digress).

But... do you also stop them, harass them, beat the crap out of them? Or if the offender, shortly after throwing things out of the car, ends up in a car accident and dies, do you applaud and claim the society is better off without them? Because that is the parallel of what we are talking about in this thread.
And you accuse Tony of using a straw man? And now this, if there ever was a straw man it's this post of yours. Nobody in this thread suggested the things you are saying there, they're just a figment of your imagination.

Nobody suggested that hunters needed to be harassed or beaten up, nobody suggested sociey is better off without them if they die. Calling out poaching archers is something different (even though you claimed he did that "legally") and the general sense is that some people find that society would be better off if they changed their hunting habits, which is very far from a death wish.

The point is everybody draws their line in the sand at a different place, some people don't like animals killed for food (and are vegetarian), while others are OK killing for food production and/or species control but not canned hunting or poaching.

Whether you like it or not, it's not black and white and we're discussing where everybody draws the line, if we can't respect where everybody does that and sling silly straw man arguments at them if they don't draw the line exactly where you do it tells more about your intolerance than of the other posters here that you are accusing of being "wrong" and intolerant.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on February 01, 2018, 03:47:19 am
I've poked the stick.

In Australia:
Crocodiles once were considered a pest but now are considered a high end fashion product (bags etc) plus crocodile tastes like "chicken" everything does with black bean sauce.
Camels were thought of as feral but camel milk is now a very expensive commodity here.
Kangaroos, hey skin, meat…
Feral pigs, pork, bacon, don't get Andrew Zimmern started.

The big five: Lion, leopard, rhinoceros, elephant and Cape buffalo. Buffalo goes down well in Indonesia has anyone tried the others?

Just messing,

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on February 01, 2018, 04:27:24 am

1    Don't tell anybody, but I generally also shoot either an antelope (out West) or a deer (on my farm) every autumn.  And, I once shot an elk in one of our state parks.  (They sell licenses to control population and the proceeds stay with the park.)

2   I will also once again bring up the point that our culture/background makes a significant difference.  Anyone growing up on a farm quickly learns it's unwise to get emotionally attached to the animals you raise. :(


Kent in SD


1.  And you shoot this thing in order to:

eat it;

to remove the head and hang it on the wall like a canvas photograph;

you shoot it because you want to satisfy the ancient, atavistic and  "inborn desire to kill" that we were discussing a few lines earlier;

you believe that it somehow affirms your masculinity?

2.  Animals raised on a farm are clearly raised to sustain human life either through the supply of milk, meat or eggs. They are, one hopes and prays, treated humanely, but the news now and then shows this is by no means the general case.

You have a farm; have you ever had to photograph the workings of a city's abattoir? It was an early gig that I was handed during my first year or so as a freelance photographer. I will not run through what I saw and photographed again, having recounted it on LuLa before, but suffice to say that anyone who tells you that cattle, penned outside the building, have no idea what's going down inside it are either deaf or blind. The smell and sense of blood and killing remains with you for weeks, no matter how you shower.

Never pick a fight with an abattoir worker.

Rob
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Otto Phocus on February 01, 2018, 07:03:34 am
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. -- Groucho Marx
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 01, 2018, 08:04:40 am
... nobody suggested sociey is better off without them if they die...

While responding to the news that a hunter was killed (bold mine):

Oh how very sad, never mind.

I get the idea of hunting for food, but killing things just for the fun of it? That requires a twisted personality. Society is better off without them.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 01, 2018, 08:20:26 am
...Nobody in this thread suggested the things you are saying there..

And I did not claim so either (apart from gloating over a dead hunter).

But that (gloating) and the rest is a prevailing ethos on the left when it comes to hunting, gun ownership, and pretty much everything else the left disagrees with (Antifa, anyone?). Or abortion clinics on the right. I provided two examples in my previous post, there are many, many more. We are discussing the world around us, not just what someone said on this forum. Btw, not so long ago, a member of this forum suggested a website “www.starvebigottodeath.com”

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on February 01, 2018, 08:44:09 am
And I did not claim so either (apart from gloating over a dead hunter).

But that (gloating) and the rest is a prevailing ethos on the left when it comes to hunting, gun ownership, and pretty much everything else the left disagrees with (Antifa, anyone?). Or abortion clinics on the right. I provided two examples in my previous post, there are many, many more. We are discussing the world around us, not just what someone said on this forum. Btw, not so long ago, a member of this forum suggested a website “www.starvebigottodeath.com”

I think someone has jumped the shark. I have posted previously that this thread should be closed, now should be a good time.

Just thinking,

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 01, 2018, 09:17:31 am
Hi Slobodan,

Thanks for explaining your point of view.

Just explaining a few of mine...
Just to put things in perspective, a friend of mine spent a couple of months in South Africa, training as a safari guide. They were not shooting any lions, but learned to track them and also to do daily inspections on their jeeps, as their survival depended on those being in a good working shape.

So, one of those days, a single bull was attacked by six lions. It was butchered alive and screaming in agony of death for several hours. It was just outside their camp. Nature is cruel, very cruel...

We humans have distanced us quite a bit from nature, that is fine and that is the ground for humanity...

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for the free diagnosis. Given the cost of medical advice here, I surely appreciate it ;)

You seem to frame hunting only as the "joy of killing." I am sure hunters would disagree with such a narrow description, as Kent already explained.

Btw, I am not a hunter. Yet I support hunters. Now, if someone would invite me to hunt with them, for instance Kent, I wouldn't turn it down. I would probably miss, especially birds in flight. I can't even get them sharp with a lens.

I also do not own guns. Yet I support gun ownership. I do not consider most hunters and gun owners as "twisted personalities" or nut jobs.

I do not like the concept of canned hunting. I do not understand how those guys can feel pride for killing in such circumstances. I would find it laughable to see them proudly displaying their trophies, knowing they got them with the same difficulty as taking a candy from a baby.

Having said that, the word "canned" bring another concept to mind: canned laughter in tv comedies. You can call it laughable, and I would agree, but guess what, studies have shown it works (i.e., canned laughter shows generate more viewers than otherwise).

There is also canned "wildlife" photography, where tamed captive animals are trained to pose, even for action shots. Such photographs are rightly prohibited in wildlife photo contests, or at least need to be labeled as such.

I do not understand hunting with a scope. Too easy. However, I just assume I do not know enough about it, as there might be some aspect I am overlooking. Bow and arrow, however...

I agree with Tony that to be considered a sport, there has to be some element of risk, skin in the game, as well as a lot of skills to detect, track and kill with one shot.

But I also do not understand why 100,000 grown-ups come to watch a dozen other grown-ups chase a ball and pay millions for that. I do not understand obsession with celebrities or royal families either.

I do not understand why boxers beat each other to a pulp, even more so UFC fighting, especially women UFC (however, having read Rob's post in the A Touch of Humor thread, post #591, I think I do). I really do not understand this:

(https://cdn.mmaweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Cris-Cyborg-punches-Holly-Holm-at-UFC-219-UFC-Photo.jpg)

I do not understand...

Ok, by now you gathered that I do not understand many things in life. Or do not like, of find sick and disgusting. There are many twisted personalities in this world, weirdos and deviants. Some we celebrate as a Woman of the Year, for some we organize parades.

But I stop there. I do not understand and I do not like, but I do not harass them, call for them to be banned, let alone threaten to or kill them. I do not gloat when they die. Live and let live. I do not think society would be better off without them. I do not have a vision of an ideal society, where everyone does just the right thing, politically correct, where only non-twisted personalities are allowed. And I certainly do not advocate use of force to achieve such society. Because, you see, my version of ideal society would surely differ from yours, my chosen groups might be the exact opposite of yours. Some people, however, believe only they (or their ideology) possess the truth of what is right and wrong and do not hesitate to impose it by force onto others (the unwashed masses).
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Chairman Bill on February 01, 2018, 09:32:39 am
Thanks for the free diagnosis. Given the cost of medical advice here, I surely appreciate it ;)

You seem to frame hunting only as the "joy of killing."

Ah, your mistake is in having taken my comments out of context. I suggest reading my original post. If I'd wanted to say that hunting is just the joy of killing, I'd have used different words, 'cos that's how words work. Different words, in different orders and stuff, mean different things, and I mean what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. Happy to help.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on February 01, 2018, 09:55:07 am
Just a thought…

What does lion meat taste like?

Just asking,


If you've eaten at more than a few Chinese restaurants, you've probably eaten cat.   ;D  I'd assume lion is similar.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: JoeKitchen on February 01, 2018, 10:03:20 am
I am annoyed by those people too (and many, many others, but I digress).

But... do you also stop them, harass them, beat the crap out of them? Or if the offender, shortly after throwing things out of the car, ends up in a car accident and dies, do you applaud and claim the society is better off without them? Because that is the parallel of what we are talking about in this thread.

This is an apples to oranges comparison.  Although annoying, trash is an easy to fix problem; you simply pick it up.  When a species becomes extinct, it's not so easy a problem to solve. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: RSL on February 01, 2018, 10:05:31 am
I am annoyed by those people too (and many, many others, but I digress).

But... do you also stop them, harass them, beat the crap out of them? Or if the offender, shortly after throwing things out of the car, ends up in a car accident and dies, do you applaud and claim the society is better off without them? Because that is the parallel of what we are talking about in this thread.

Slobodan, a story: I was in the passenger seat, riding to an appointment with a friend. We were building a system that involved recorders and software. He was doing the hardware work on the recorders and I was doing the software. We stopped at a traffic light. There was a car with two women in the lane to our left. The gal in the right seat of that car tossed her cigarette out the window. Bill turned to her and said, "Pick that up!" Bill was a really big guy and he could look awfully mean if he wanted to. The gal looked at him and said, "What?" Bill repeated what he'd said. She opened her door and picked up the butt. I'll never forget it. It was beautiful.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: JoeKitchen on February 01, 2018, 10:07:19 am


He was a fellow human being, with a family.  Lots of us (self included) do risky things as a hobby.  I've had some close calls myself in my kayak, racing motorcycles (motorcross/enduros,) and even hiking in the mountains. 


Kent in SD

Yes, but most of us do not have hobbies that involve killing endangered animals just for sport.  I do not wish any human to be killed, but do not think I will morn anyone who is. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 01, 2018, 10:14:17 am
Yes, but most of us do not have hobbies that involve killing endangered animals just for sport.  I do not wish any human to be killed, but do not think I will morn anyone who is. 

Another straw man. Who said we are talking about endangered species? If they were endangered, they would be on a protected species list and hunting prohibited. It was not the case in examples we discussed here. Those were legal operations.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: JoeKitchen on February 01, 2018, 10:16:48 am
Another straw man. Who said we are talking about endangered species? If they were endangered, they would be on a protected species list and hunting prohibited. It was not the case in examples we discussed here. Those were legal operations.

African Lions Finally Gain Endangered Species Act Protection. Here's roaring good news: In a move several years in the making, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service today finally announced that the African lion (Panthera leo) would formally be protected under the U.S. Endangered Species Act.Dec 21, 2015

African Lions Finally Gain Endangered Species Act Protection (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/african-lions-protection/)
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 01, 2018, 10:24:44 am
African Lions Finally Gain Endangered Species Act Protection. Here's roaring good news: In a move several years in the making, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service today finally announced that the African lion (Panthera leo) would formally be protected under the U.S. Endangered Species Act.Dec 21, 2015

African Lions Finally Gain Endangered Species Act Protection (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/african-lions-protection/)


All good and well, but note this part (bold mine):

Quote
Ashe said the listing will not bar the import of trophies from these hunts into the U.S., but it will “raise the bar significantly” and require permits that prove any hunts were conducted in a sustainable manner. Countries which allow hunting will need to prove to FWS that their programs actually enhance and protect wild populations—for example, by funding local communities and ensuring that lions do not pose a perceived threat to livestock—before any trophies from those hunts could be imported into the U.S.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: JoeKitchen on February 01, 2018, 10:30:46 am
All good and well, but note this part (bold mine):

Ahhh, breaking out the red herring to replace the straw man. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on February 01, 2018, 11:25:50 am
A big part of attaining peace of mind lies in understanding when it's time to give up, because the argument has been lost.

Twisting and turning, ducking and diving will never disguise the reality that killing for the pure hell of it is not sport, it is simply murder of a most sadistic nature that says a lot more about the killer than of the poor prey whose only sin was to be in the right place at the wrong time
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Alan Klein on February 01, 2018, 11:52:12 am
Hunting humans in war seems to be a more popular sport.  We're all morally involved then cheering on our hunters and condemning their prey. 
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: pegelli on February 01, 2018, 11:52:22 am
And I did not claim so either (apart from gloating over a dead hunter).

But that (gloating) and the rest is a prevailing ethos on the left when it comes to hunting, gun ownership, and pretty much everything else the left disagrees with (Antifa, anyone?). Or abortion clinics on the right. I provided two examples in my previous post, there are many, many more. We are discussing the world around us, not just what someone said on this forum. Btw, not so long ago, a member of this forum suggested a website “www.starvebigottodeath.com”
Slobodan, the problem is that you seem to have a keen eye for published extreme (in your eyes left) views that you disagree with and then when someone here disagrees with you you transpose these extreme views on the posters here. I think that is very much in disagreement with your "ethos" that if everybody thinks the same, nobody thinks. Most people here on LuLa can think pretty well independently and when they disagree with you it doesn't necesarily mean they agree with some of the extreme stuff you read elsewhere on the internet. If you want to oppose those extreme views do it elsewhere, if you want to discuss here don't take us for others outside, because we aren't. Your other point is live and let live, I fully support that and maybe you should practice that more yourself if you truly believe it.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Two23 on February 01, 2018, 09:42:31 pm
Just a thought…

What does lion meat taste like?

Just asking,



Tonight I asked the kid next door*.    He said he thinks they taste like chicken.


Kent in SD
*He's a senior in high school
and knows EVERYTHING! :)
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: tom b on February 01, 2018, 11:18:17 pm
I went to bed and I was sure this thread would be closed.

Just a thought, I saw in a David Attenborough series that Africa has an amazing biomass of bugs.

Having just seen Nicole Kidman eat a whole heap of bugs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3UqLAtdZ04&t=23s) surely there is an economic enterprise to be taken advantage of. Maybe 'African bug eating adventures' who knows?.

Delicious,
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 01, 2018, 11:57:45 pm

...Having just seen Nicole Kidman eat a whole heap of bugs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3UqLAtdZ04&t=23s) surely there is an economic enterprise to be taken advantage of. Maybe 'African bug eating adventures' who knows?.

Delicious,

Eeeewww!

Eating bugs!? Makes me want become a vegan... Australian vegan:

Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 02, 2018, 12:16:53 am
Something for Rob: trophy heads and fashion photography 😉
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Rob C on February 03, 2018, 09:11:29 am
Something for Rob: trophy heads and fashion photography 😉

Ah! The lunatic fringe!

Sometimes, when all else fails, people lose their heads too. I suppose ostrich and sand must have
been out of fashion, or perhaps not, thus accounting for the missing item.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 03, 2018, 09:27:16 am
... Sometimes, when all else fails, people lose their heads too...

Nope, head is still there. Quite good looking, I'd add. And a bunch of spare ones too.
Title: Re: Trophy hunter shot while shooting lions
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on February 03, 2018, 12:01:26 pm
Sorry kids, the fun is over. In receipt of complaints...