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Author Topic: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?  (Read 4635 times)

saiguy

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Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« on: January 25, 2018, 11:46:18 AM »

Scanning 35mm mounted slides and using SilverFast 8 Archive software. I'm really stumped how to work with this red mask. Any help be much appreciated.

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Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2018, 12:00:08 PM »

Scanning 35mm mounted slides and using SilverFast 8 Archive software. I'm really stumped how to work with this red mask. Any help be much appreciated.

Is this "red mask" part of the slide, or is it something that is showing after the scan?  I use Silverfast ai Studio 8, not the Archive version, but with a bit more information I might be able to offer a suggestion. 

Gary   
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2018, 01:15:29 PM »

Scanning 35mm mounted slides and using SilverFast 8 Archive software. I'm really stumped how to work with this red mask. Any help be much appreciated.

I'm assuming you are talking about a lith film used for screen printing processes - is this correct? If so the mask is built-in to the film and you would need to use SilverFast's colour correction tools to neutralize it. There are several colour correction tools in SilverFast that can be deployed for this purpose.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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PeterAit

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2018, 01:30:30 PM »

The red mask was an integral part of Kodacolor and other negative color films intended to make prints. Not part of slides (positives) such as Ektachrome. I don't know why this mask was necessary, but there you have it. Any competent scanning program will have a "Color Negative" setting that automatically compensates for the mask.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2018, 01:35:35 PM »

The red mask was an integral part of Kodacolor and other negative color films intended to make prints. Not part of slides (positives) such as Ektachrome. I don't know why this mask was necessary, but there you have it. Any competent scanning program will have a "Color Negative" setting that automatically compensates for the mask.

Peter - the O/P is talking about COLOR POSITIVE film - not negs. If it's negs, the answer is simple - he uses Negafix in SilverFast - it has profiles for neutralizing the various hues of "orange masks" in a very large number of colour negative films. That's easy.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2018, 01:42:32 PM »

I'm assuming you are talking about a lith film used for screen printing processes - is this correct? If so the mask is built-in to the film and you would need to use SilverFast's colour correction tools to neutralize it. There are several colour correction tools in SilverFast that can be deployed for this purpose.

Hi Mark,

That was my initial thought as I read the words 'ruby red', as in ruby-lith.  However, the OP does mention scanning 35mm Slides, which would rule out the ruby-lith possibility, would it not?  I tried to emulate what he described by scanning a slide in Colour Neg Mode, but other than a mild colour shift I could not reproduce what the OP is encountering.  Having printed thousands of colour negatives I am quite familiar with the orange/red film base, but I could do nothing In Silverfast ai Studio 8 to produce anything close to what the OP described. 

Gary 
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2018, 01:54:25 PM »

Hi Mark,

That was my initial thought as I read the words 'ruby red', as in ruby-lith.  However, the OP does mention scanning 35mm Slides, which would rule out the ruby-lith possibility, would it not?  I tried to emulate what he described by scanning a slide in Colour Neg Mode, but other than a mild colour shift I could not reproduce what the OP is encountering.  Having printed thousands of colour negatives I am quite familiar with the orange/red film base, but I could do nothing In Silverfast ai Studio 8 to produce anything close to what the OP described. 

Gary

The O/P needs to clarify exactly what film he's talking about.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2018, 02:00:40 PM »

The red mask was an integral part of Kodacolor and other negative color films intended to make prints. Not part of slides (positives) such as Ektachrome. I don't know why this mask was necessary, but there you have it. Any competent scanning program will have a "Color Negative" setting that automatically compensates for the mask.

The orange-red mask is necessary when printing a colour negative on Type "C" papers and or Duratrans material.  The Type "C" papers are of course negative emulsions, meant for printing from negative film.  However, the paper/Duratrans materials do not have such a mask built in, so the mask in the film acts as a sort of neutral layer to overcome the way the colour paper etc. emulsions are produced.  For instance, if you were to print a B&W neg on Type "C" colour paper you would have to sandwich a blank colour film base with the B&W neg to achieve anything close to a neutral B&W image.  Or, rachet up the colour printing filters to accommodate for the lack of the colour mask, although that method would require considerable testing of various filter combinations.

Gary           
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LuLa - The source of ALL! -- "There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept" -- Ansel Adams
Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan

Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2018, 02:03:02 PM »

The O/P needs to clarify exactly what film he's talking about.

EXACTY!
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Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan

Mark D Segal

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 02:21:00 PM »

The orange-red mask is necessary when printing a colour negative on Type "C" papers and or Duratrans material.  The Type "C" papers are of course negative emulsions, meant for printing from negative film.  However, the paper/Duratrans materials do not have such a mask built in, so the mask in the film acts as a sort of neutral layer to overcome the way the colour paper etc. emulsions are produced.  For instance, if you were to print a B&W neg on Type "C" colour paper you would have to sandwich a blank colour film base with the B&W neg to achieve anything close to a neutral B&W image.  Or, rachet up the colour printing filters to accommodate for the lack of the colour mask, although that method would require considerable testing of various filter combinations.

Gary           

Actually the purpose of the orange mask is to help compensate for impurities in the dyes that make up the film layers. Impure dyes introduce wrong colours that need to be filtered out. Yellow and magenta colour couplers in the magenta and cyan layers are used for this purpose and they combine to produce the orange cast. Specifically, The magenta layer transmits some blue light so the coupler is yellow to counteract the blue, and the cyan layer transmits some green, so the coupler is magenta to counteract the green (remember your Lab opponent colours); the combination of the magenta and yellow make up the orange colour known as the mask in colour negatives. But all that said, the O/P isn't clear on whether it is conventional orange masks he is dealing with. All this is about negative film and he's talking about positive film. Needs clarity.
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saiguy

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2018, 03:28:28 PM »

I am amazed by all the replies. All I can tell is that they are mounted slides and positives. I'm sure they are "store bought". Have seen jumbo slides, called Super 35mm ??, in the past with this same look from the Grand Canyon NP store, and elsewhere.

Gary, Ai studio 8 has the same tool set as the Archive Suite.

I can post a photo, but it will be a pink&white.

Can remove/reduce the red using SF8 tools, but never have gotten a good photo. Why would National Parks and others sell slides that are seemingly impossible to tame?

Was hoping someone knew the taming trick.
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saiguy

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2018, 03:45:01 PM »

First time trying to send a photo attachment. Hope it works.

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PeterAit

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2018, 04:15:26 PM »

Peter - the O/P is talking about COLOR POSITIVE film - not negs. If it's negs, the answer is simple - he uses Negafix in SilverFast - it has profiles for neutralizing the various hues of "orange masks" in a very large number of colour negative films. That's easy.

He said color positive film but I don't think he meant it. I have never seen a color positive film with a red mask.
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Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2018, 04:30:37 PM »

Actually the purpose of the orange mask is to help compensate for impurities in the dyes that make up the film layers. Impure dyes introduce wrong colours that need to be filtered out. Yellow and magenta colour couplers in the magenta and cyan layers are used for this purpose and they combine to produce the orange cast. Specifically, The magenta layer transmits some blue light so the coupler is yellow to counteract the blue, and the cyan layer transmits some green, so the coupler is magenta to counteract the green (remember your Lab opponent colours); the combination of the magenta and yellow make up the orange colour known as the mask in colour negatives. But all that said, the O/P isn't clear on whether it is conventional orange masks he is dealing with. All this is about negative film and he's talking about positive film. Needs clarity.

 Hi Mark,

A somewhat more in depth explanation, but inevitably arriving at the same conclusion.  Without the orange-red layer in colour neg film it would be impossible to produce a properly colour balanced print.  Which is why the chromagenic "B&W" films also incorporated the orange layer, to accommodate for the inadequacies/shortcomings of the Cyan and Magenta layers, even though they were balanced for a neutral/B&W rendition of the original scene.  Of course that film was simply a stopgap solution for sudo B&W printed on Type "C" papers etc.

Gary           
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Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan

Telecaster

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2018, 04:34:36 PM »

First time trying to send a photo attachment. Hope it works.

Worked fine. Looks to me a lot like faded Ektachrome, as in the attached 55-year-old pic of my young self.   :)

-Dave-
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Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2018, 04:45:46 PM »

He said color positive film but I don't think he meant it. I have never seen a color positive film with a red mask.

That's why I asked him if the red "mask" was part of the original slide or something that was noticed after the scan had been produced.  However, I do not understand why it wouldn't have been noticed in the pre-scan and corrected before committing to the final scan.  He also mentioned "mounted 35mm slides", and I haven't yet seen "mounted 35mm colour negatives", so I have to take him at his word.  As Mark mentioned, he has to let us know exactly which type of film he is referring to.  If it is indeed a positive film he obviously has an issue with the Silverfast settings somehow.  As mentioned previously, I could not replicate this problem while scanning a 35mm Ektachrome scanner calibration slide. 

Gary       
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LuLa - The source of ALL! -- "There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept" -- Ansel Adams
Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan

Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2018, 04:49:16 PM »

Worked fine. Looks to me a lot like faded Ektachrome, as in the attached 55-year-old pic of my young self.   :)

-Dave-

I agree, but I have asked twice if the orange/red colour is indeed incorporated in the slide, or something that only shows after the scan.  Cannot seem to get an answer to that.  If it is in the slide itself there are ways of correcting that before the final scan is implemented, as well as some excellent methods of doing so after the scan.   
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 04:52:42 PM by Garnick »
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LuLa - The source of ALL! -- "There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept" -- Ansel Adams
Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan

Jim Metzger

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2018, 05:04:09 PM »

I think Telecaster has this right. My parents used to bring back store bought slides from overseas trips back in the 1960's. They all "faded" to this colorcast. I am wondering if a book such as Ctein's "Digital Restoration" might have a more in depth answer?
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saiguy

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2018, 05:24:23 PM »

The color is in the slides. They are positives. I have seen these before and always from store bought. If they are faded Ekchrome then they all fade the same. I think it is some kind of weird film and have no way of knowing the type. My post had no editing. I can reduce the red but yet to find a way to make it look like a "normal capture". Thus the original post.

Another sample. Thanks for all the replies,
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Garnick

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Re: Scanning ruby red color positive film. Any suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2018, 05:40:37 PM »

The color is in the slides. They are positives. I have seen these before and always from store bought. If they are faded Ekchrome then they all fade the same. I think it is some kind of weird film and have no way of knowing the type. My post had no editing. I can reduce the red but yet to find a way to make it look like a "normal capture". Thus the original post.

Another sample. Thanks for all the replies,

Just a quick attempt in Photoshop - Auto Color - Levels to control contrast - Saturation - Color Balance.  Not great, but better I think.

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LuLa - The source of ALL! -- "There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept" -- Ansel Adams
Even though a big part of my life has been spent dealing with negatives, they generally end up being positives -- gan
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