Magenta tone to Canson Baryta monochrome prints

[TommyWeir]

Hi all, back printing on a Baryta after a long period only printing on matt, but didn't notice this issue before.  If I print on the Canson Baryta a black and white image there is a clear magenta cast to the midtones.

It's a Fuji X-T2 file, processed via Iridient Developer into Capture One as a 16-bit monochrome TIFF.  I'm printing from Capture One 11, using the canson baryta profile from them, on an Epson P600. 

Not having this issue on any other stock, any suggestions?

[howardm]

You may want to try ABW mode in the printer driver.

[Rand47]

You may want to try ABW mode in the printer driver.

+1  I had the same dark magenta-come-purple-y cast on the Barytas.   ABW put things neutral. 

Rand

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

The original post and the first two replies remind me of a question that came to mind a few weeks ago while reading another thread.

The context there was that “good enough was good enough” (or something similar) when engineers design e.g. the P800 and ABW’s ability to print neutral prints (assuming no tinting).  The comparison was made, as I recall, between e.g. the P800’s ABW and more sophisticated ink sets with their related profiling.

My question is whether the difference between such “good enough” neutrality and instrumentally “perfect” neutrality (and perhaps linearity as well?) is something a viewer would readily see or would require instrumentation of some sort to measure (because the difference was too small for eyes to perceive).

[Mark D Segal]

I recall quite a while back I tested some Canson Baryta Photographique in an Epson 4900 (using a custom profile) and it's neutrality for monochrome printing was very good. Since then, Canson has undergone a change of ownership. I don't know whether changes in paper-coating arrangements also occurred. Assuming the same recipe survived the ownership change, I suspect that a good custom profile would produce good monochrome results without any obvious tints, while giving the user all the control of an ICC-based application managed workflow.

[TommyWeir]

Thanks all.  I'll try the ABW mode.   I will also investigate how to get a custom profile as you suggest Mark.  I like the Baryta and would love to have it at its best.

[Mark D Segal]

Thanks all.  I'll try the ABW mode.   I will also investigate how to get a custom profile as you suggest Mark.  I like the Baryta and would love to have it at its best.

Tommy, if it just doesn't work for reasons as yet unclear, do keep in mind that there are a number of other very similar baryta-based products on the market that print very well.

[TommyWeir]

I'll definitely check out the Hannemuhle.

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

I recall quite a while back I tested some Canson Baryta Photographique in an Epson 4900 (using a custom profile) and it's neutrality for monochrome printing was very good. Since then, Canson has undergone a change of ownership. I don't know whether changes in paper-coating arrangements also occurred. Assuming the same recipe survived the ownership change, I suspect that a good custom profile would produce good monochrome results without any obvious tints, while giving the user all the control of an ICC-based application managed workflow.

Thank you, Mark.  This is good to know.

One follow-up:  it has been my understanding that if the discussion is limited to ABW printing vs from an application-managed (AM) printing workflow, then in Photoshop one chooses "Printer Manages Color", which grays out the options for selecting a profile and in Lightroom (in the Print Job panel) "Managed by Printer", which is an alternative to choosing a profile, i.e., whether printing from Lr or Ps, if ABW then no profiles (canned or custom).

Is there any practical difference in neutrality between printing with ABW (no profiles) and AM printing (profiles)?  I send BW RGB files to ABW, always printing neutral (no tinting).  I still use Canson Baryta Photographique.

This and other ABW vs AM questions were addressed in a thread from last year: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=117543.0.  It began with my own question about one aspect of ABW and touches upon elements of control one gives up in using ABW instead of an AM workflow.

[Mark D Segal]

Hi Jeffrey, I've looked into this most recently in my review of the Epson SC-P5000 printer and saw no dramatic systematic improvement of grayscale neutrality with ABW versus non-ABW workflows. ABW can produce a slightly deeper Black, but within the margin of Blackness below that which most people would perceive. Have a look at that review for the details.

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

Thank you, Mark.

[Alan Goldhammer]

The key issue with Epson printers and B/W printing is that in the 'color mode' more color inks are used.  If you do not have a profile that takes this into account you will see the observed shift that the OP mentions.   This is absent when using the ABW mode as the color ink lay down is much reduced.  A manufacturer's profile might not take B/W printing into account as profile preparation requires more B/W patches than might otherwise be used.  When I prepare my printer profiles (Epson 3880), I always include a 51 step B/W patch set to deal with this issue.  I do not see any color shifts on any of the papers I print on.  I still prefer using the ABW print driver using profiles prepared with Roy Harrington's QTR scripting tool.  I find that the tonal separations and the black point to be superior to using a color managed workflow; I can also soft proof as I am on WindowsOS.

I think Mark Segal has done some very good testing of the new models of the Epson printers and from what I have read, there is less difference between a colored managed and ABW work flows.

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

Alan, something isn’t clear to me that I’d like to understand. 

Where you say “color mode”, is it that an RGB BW image (which I would print in ABW) would be sent to print as a “color” image, i.e. with Photoshop managing “color” and thus requiring a profile (same idea for Lightroom), where the profile “doesn’t know” it’s a grayscale image and would print inaccurately due to too much color ink (cyan and magenta, presumably, instead of the more judiciously-used light cyan/light magenta in ABW?).  Thus one would need for a given paper one profile for color prints on it and a different profile for BW printing on it?  Is this the gist of it?

[Alan Goldhammer]

Alan, something isn’t clear to me that I’d like to understand. 

Where you say “color mode”, is it that an RGB BW image (which I would print in ABW) would be sent to print as a “color” image, i.e. with Photoshop managing “color” and thus requiring a profile (same idea for Lightroom), where the profile “doesn’t know” it’s a grayscale image and would print inaccurately due to too much color ink (cyan and magenta, presumably, instead of the more judiciously-used light cyan/light magenta in ABW?).  Thus one would need for a given paper one profile for color prints on it and a different profile for BW printing on it?  Is this the gist of it?

Quote, by "color mode" I mean using a typical ICC profile that was prepared with a full color patch set.  You only need to have extra B/W patches in the set when the profile is made so that you have a good response if you are doing monochrome printing.  I do all my profiling with ArgyllCMS and can accomplish this during the profile making.  I don't know whether paper manufacturers do this for their available profiles.  You do not need a second profile.

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

Alan, thank you for this clarification.

[Mark D Segal]

............I don't know whether paper manufacturers do this for their available profiles.  .............

Alan, my understanding based on conversation with the paper distributors I talk with is that they are either hiring out their profile making to professional colour management people who use X-Rite materials (with one notable hardware exception for the M3 profiling), or do it themselves using X-Rite materials. When using i1Profiler, there is much latitude in the construction of profiling targets, so the number and densities of gray-scale patches would be determined depending on how targets are constructed. It would be an interesting new topic to talk about how many gray-scale patches of what densities would be optimal for obtaining near-neutral grays in a print, although that is one relevant variable amongst others.

[unesco]

I specialise in B&W fine art printing and went a long path trying to find the best way to print monochrome pictures. The question is if you really want to have maximum neutrality? Have you tried warm/cool prints (still monochrome) or duo/tri tones?
It should be remembered that paper white tint have influence on final neutrality.

ABW is not as good as high quality printing would be expected, but on the other hand better than many people say (it uses aggressive removal of color inks). Epson black/gray inks are warm, not neutral as in Canon/HP, thus always magenta and cyan have to be used to neutralise warmth.

You can get full control on your B&W picture by using QTR - another dimension of B&W printing, by controling every ink channel and by designing own curves, then linearise them. Usually, 51 patches are enough. 21 would be a good starting point. in both cases multiply prints and measurements or smoothing is needed.

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

Unesco, your post brings the following to mind:

“The question is if you really want to have maximum neutrality?”

I’m still trying to develop a useful qualitative understanding of  “maximum” neutrality (to use your term) and whether it really is visually superior (i.e. as a practical/aesthetic matter) to a neutrality that is instrumentally “off” but not eye-perceptibly “off”.  Are there no circumstances where a BW print would look neutral even though instruments would say it isn't "maximally" or perfectly neutral?  While I am seriously curious about these things, I’m unable to undertake the meticulous work I think would be required to get an answer to this.  I depend for now on threads here and readings elsewhere.


“Have you tried warm/cool prints (still monochrome) or duo/tri tones?”

No, these are areas of BW printing in which I have not been interested, except for some casual trials when I first got my printer.


“It should be remembered that paper white tint have influence on final neutrality.”

Aside from a paper’s overall (and often desirable) aesthetic effect from it’s tone (e.g. a warm baryta vs. a paper that is cold from OBAs), I am curious whether you are referring to an effect I am familiar with from oil painting where, if you have an oil-rich glaze or a light scumble over a toned ground, the ground will show through and contribute to the perceived tone, but a thick opaque paint layer of whatever tone will hide the toned ground.  Is this analogous to what you are referring to?  Is there a “maximum” neutrality achievable in a BW print by developing a profile that would take the translucency/thickness of the deposited ink into account in order to “counter” the increasing effect of the paper’s tone as less and less ink is applied in the light tones?

In my way of thinking about it, any effect of the paper's tone is a given, and the question is only whether the ink that is printed is neutral (visually or perfectly) across the full range of tones.

[Mark D Segal]

Unesco, your post brings the following to mind:

“The question is if you really want to have maximum neutrality?”

I’m still trying to develop a useful qualitative understanding of  “maximum” neutrality (to use your term) and whether it really is visually superior (i.e. as a practical/aesthetic matter) to a neutrality that is instrumentally “off” but not eye-perceptibly “off”.  Are there no circumstances where a BW print would look neutral even though instruments would say it isn't "maximally" or perfectly neutral?  While I am seriously curious about these things, I’m unable to undertake the meticulous work I think would be required to get an answer to this.  I depend for now on threads here and readings elsewhere.


“Have you tried warm/cool prints (still monochrome) or duo/tri tones?”

No, these are areas of BW printing in which I have not been interested, except for some casual trials when I first got my printer.


“It should be remembered that paper white tint have influence on final neutrality.”

Aside from a paper’s overall (and often desirable) aesthetic effect from it’s tone (e.g. a warm baryta vs. a paper that is cold from OBAs), I am curious whether you are referring to an effect I am familiar with from oil painting where, if you have an oil-rich glaze or a light scumble over a toned ground, the ground will show through and contribute to the perceived tone, but a thick opaque paint layer of whatever tone will hide the toned ground.  Is this analogous to what you are referring to?  Is there a “maximum” neutrality achievable in a BW print by developing a profile that would take the translucency/thickness of the deposited ink into account in order to “counter” the increasing effect of the paper’s tone as less and less ink is applied in the light tones?

In my way of thinking about it, any effect of the paper's tone is a given, and the question is only whether the ink that is printed is neutral (visually or perfectly) across the full range of tones.

On the first issue, human visual perception is sensitive to off-gray tonality, but more so when neutral and non-neutrals are perceived side by side. We tolerate more non-neutrality seeing one print in isolation rather than in comparison with another. Of course we can define neutrality with mathematical precision and measure for it, and we can normally achieve it within a dE or less. But how "necessary" it is remains judgmental.

On the second issue - toning - it can make a useful artistic contribution to the look and feel of a B&W print. Worth spending some time on.

On the third issue: paper white is almost never completely neutral. The warmer or cooler it is, this influence is likely to show for a small part of the brightest region of the tone scale where ink laydown may not be opaque enough to overcome the paper tone. Otherwise, paper tone should not influence gray scale neutrality per se.

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

Thank you, Mark.  I especially appreciate your first paragraph.

I had missed your SC-P5000 review and Expanded Neutrals Testing; your recent comments here provide a good mindset about neutrality in working through them.

Appreciatively...