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Author Topic: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management  (Read 5253 times)

Doug Gray

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2018, 08:45:10 PM »

How many photographers other than Ctein argue that prints turn out better under printer-managed color than under application-manged color?  I understand some people are happy with the results they get when they turn over control to their printers, but unless you believe you're better off that way, this approach seems to me more complicated than setting up a color-managed application workflow.  (Which ain't that complicated, wot?)

This, I think, is the essential point.  From my perspective, there's more to soft-proofing than getting the colors right.  When you transfer an image from a high-dynamic-range transmissive computer display to a low-dynamic-range reflective medium like paper, adjustments other than color accuracy may be required to make it look the way you want.  At least, that's been my experience, printing from Lightroom and using the simulate paper and ink option to see the effect of the migration between media.

Can't say I disagree. I view "Printer Manages defaults" as a printer/paper specific perceptual mode with the disadvantage that you can's soft proof it nor tell exactly what you get. The process I outlined provides a way to process the image such that, when printed in colorimetric mode, it replicates the specific printer managed rendering. And you can do that with any other printer/paper combination so long as the gamut is at least as broad as the original printer. It wouldn't work, for instance, going from glossy to matte unless the original image print was within the matte gamut.  It's a way to preserve the ability to make the same prints when upgrading printers.

Mostly, it was just an academic exercise of little use for 99% of people. Also, most of the few that prefer to use printer manages color probably don't have the tools required.

I do find it curious that the two printers have pretty different prints. One expands sRGB into more saturated areas, the other does the inverse. And both increase luminance. The 9500 bumps it a really large amount. Weird.
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Kemosabe

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2018, 10:12:22 PM »

Hi, my 1st post. 

I own a Canon Pro 4000 printer.  I always let the Printer manage the colors in a highly controlled CMM environment.  1st off I don't print from adobe unless I'm forced to.  Canon's canvas printing tools are only provided via PhotoShop.

I don't quite understand what you guys mean when you are saying that Windows defaults to sRGB color space.  That doesn't happen on my systems.  I set the color space in the application to AdobeRGB and it sticks. 

Let me say that I print almost exclusively from Canon's Print Studio Pro or Qimage Ultimate.  My monitor has a greater than AdobeRGB calibrated color space.  What I see on monitor is what i get on print. 

One feels a little slighted when I hear you guys say that the printer manages color folks don't know what their doing. 

Logic dictates that Canon had to know what they are doing when they profiled their printer and media into a tightly integrated color manage system.  I get better results when I set the ICC profile of the media in the printer and the printer driver and let the PRO 4000 manage the colors typically set in relative color-metric.  I then verify the color gamut volumes in ColorThink Pro.

One tends to think that the above is a more complex printing methodology resulting in a superior color managed work flow with outstanding results in print. 
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2018, 10:17:05 PM »

See post 14 and Dave P of Adobes comments about Windows, Printer Manages Color and sRGB.
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Andrew Rodney
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eronald

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2018, 11:38:06 AM »

How many photographers other than Ctein argue that prints turn out better under printer-managed color than under application-manged color?  I understand some people are happy with the results they get when they turn over control to their printers, but unless you believe you're better off that way, this approach seems to me more complicated than setting up a color-managed application workflow.  (Which ain't that complicated, wot?)

This, I think, is the essential point.  From my perspective, there's more to soft-proofing than getting the colors right.  When you transfer an image from a high-dynamic-range transmissive computer display to a low-dynamic-range reflective medium like paper, adjustments other than color accuracy may be required to make it look the way you want.  At least, that's been my experience, printing from Lightroom and using the simulate paper and ink option to see the effect of the migration between media.

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow with sRGB-tagged images is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust. The non-regression testing seems to work. Profiled printing seems to be a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.

If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS. There's a reason I have a frozen machine for profiling and printing.I'm not going to argue that sRGB or PMC is exactly a lifestyle enhancement, but often safe and on-time is better than pushing the edge.


Edmund
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 11:48:16 AM by eronald »
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2018, 11:49:31 AM »

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust.
You can argue it all you want, when ink hits the paper, it doesn't wash. At least on my Epson's with my images and NOT with sRGB. And I prefer to have the ability to soft proof, pick a rendering intent, make print specific edits based on that etc. Robust is a subjective term, preferred by consumers is vague (I'm a consumer and a photographer). PMC isn't robust enough to allow the capabilities I've outlined above. For me and others who can speak for themselves as either or both photographers and/or consumers.
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If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS.
FUD! Epson supplies a host of ICC profiles, some better than others for their papers. 3rd party paper manufacturers can do the same.
With your logic, soft proofing isn't worthwhile (perhaps to you) because there's an extra step involved. Ditto with editing images or for that matter, exposing your captures correctly.
For cell phone users, and perhaps you consider yourself that kind of photographer, yeah, stick with PCM and any or all 'auto' corrections or anything else to print your photos. For pro's, not so much.

"A professional is someone who can do his best work when he doesn't feel like it."-Alistair Cooke

"Professionalism is knowing how to do it, when to do it, and doing it."-Frank Tyger
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Mark D Segal

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2018, 11:59:31 AM »

(1) I would argue that Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. (2) The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust. (3) The non-regression testing seems to work. (4) Profiled printing seems to be a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.

(5) If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS. There's a reason I have a frozen machine for profiling and printing.


Edmund

I have numbered each of your sentences above for ease of reference.

(1) and (2): Using the passive voice is a time-worn way of evading responsibility for providing evidence or substantiation. Who says it is the preferred consumer workflow? Which consumers? Define "consumers". Once you've identified where this "preferred consumer workflow" business comes from, please state what their reasons are for preferring it. How does this preference necessarily make this workflow "fairly robust"?

(3) Please unpack this sentence. I don't have a clue what you are talking about and I've been testing print workflows for years. As well, I know what regression analysis is because I've used it for decades.

(4) I've been using ICC-profiled print workflows with Epson printers for a very long time and I never had live scorpion claws waving at me out of the printer, or from anywhere else for that matter. Where issues have arisen, there's nothing that an up-dated profile hasn't corrected. The most contemporary data I can provide attesting to the reliability of ICC-profiled printer workflows is my experience with the Epson SC-P5000 which I started using on April Fool's Day of 2017 - my waste ratio is 1.8% (one point 8 percent) on over 850 sq.ft. printed. The waste ratio is defined as printed square feet trashed relative to printed square feet retained. ALL of it had nothing to do with colour management issues; most it was pilot error due to me noticing editing errors on paper that I should have picked-up on the display.

(5) The worst that can happen is that one may need to update a profile. And this seldom happens save for an application bug interfering with the integrity of the CMS and this is a rare occurrence.

In sum, I think none of this makes any sense.

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2018, 12:08:35 PM »

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons.
Maybe you should examine what's been shown in the past here with actual examples, not (as Mark nicely puts it) a passive voice:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124034.msg1036122#msg1036122


http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124034.msg1036439#msg1036439
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2018, 12:20:08 PM »

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons.
My next question is, do you own any Epson's (which?) and can you illustrate being a photographer other than what I see here; presumably you holding 'a camera' of some kind:

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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2018, 01:52:36 PM »

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow with sRGB-tagged images is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust.
I agree.  Most printer purchasers have no knowledge of colorspaces or icc profiles and probably have their time taken up by other things more important to them. Since this is by far the largest market for photo printers, the companies have done significant research into what makes a print "look best" compared to the image on their monitor. This means studying the average illumination people view their prints in as well as the average monitor's characteristics and gathering a lot of data from actual testing with consumers. Generally, prints that are found most pleasing (and hence most like what they see on their display) have increased brightness and color saturation. How much each of these is done depends on what each manufacture believes their customers prefer. As a result there are differences in how prints look when the same image is printed using PMC on different printers. But, of course most people don't have multiple printers that they have printed the same image. They just print something and want it to look good.
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The non-regression testing seems to work.

To what are you referring?

Quote
Profiled printing seems to be a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.

I find quite the opposite. Profiling printer/papers results in a high degree of equivalence and consistency across printers.

Quote
If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS.
I've been profiling printers since Windows XP and PS CS and I've never seen any printer profiling issues from an upgrade. Lots of other issues though.
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2018, 01:59:01 PM »

I've been profiling printers since Windows XP and PS CS and I've never seen any printer profiling issues from an upgrade. Lots of other issues though.
He's probably (?) referring to issues on MacOS with Adobe and Epson that were around quite awhile ago when the three companies where not working together, as they do now, to communicate with each other. I can't recall a Mac/Epson/Adobe issue in many years. Also, his description (a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.) is filled with FUD-ish and unnecessary non-technical language for someone we are told is a photographic, color and PhD savvy writer in subjects like this.   ;)
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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2018, 03:47:48 PM »

He's probably (?) referring to issues on MacOS with Adobe and Epson that were around quite awhile ago when the three companies where not working together, as they do now, to communicate with each other. I can't recall a Mac/Epson/Adobe issue in many years. Also, his description (a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.) is filled with FUD-ish and unnecessary non-technical language for someone we are told is a photographic, color and PhD savvy writer in subjects like this.   ;)
While quite a florid description, he describes a problem or state of things I have never seen. If anything, profiles bring a remarkable level of consistency to printing. OTOH, what profiling is, how it works, and what to expect from it, is second nature to me.
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2018, 03:53:00 PM »

While quite a florid description, he describes a problem or state of things I have never seen. If anything, profiles bring a remarkable level of consistency to printing. OTOH, what profiling is, how it works, and what to expect from it, is second nature to me.
Well the problems had really nothing to do with profiles per se. So you're observations are correct. Going back a number of years, there were issues with Epson trying to "fix" what they thought was Adobe or Apple 'bugs' and then Adobe doing the same etc, with no communication among the group. I can't say PMC was immune either, it just wasn't on my radar at the time. As I said, thanks to the efforts of some of us who post here (Pixel Mafia and such), people who have worked with all three companies for awhile, the three companies finally got together and as I stated, it's been a number of years since there were any such issues on the MacOS with Epson/Adobe and printing. So yeah, the comments are mostly FUD by today's standards for one, and not clear or well expressed for another.
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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2018, 04:31:56 PM »

Well the problems had really nothing to do with profiles per se. So you're observations are correct. Going back a number of years, there were issues with Epson trying to "fix" what they thought was Adobe or Apple 'bugs' and then Adobe doing the same etc, with no communication among the group. I can't say PMC was immune either, it just wasn't on my radar at the time. As I said, thanks to the efforts of some of us who post here (Pixel Mafia and such), people who have worked with all three companies for awhile, the three companies finally got together and as I stated, it's been a number of years since there were any such issues on the MacOS with Epson/Adobe and printing. So yeah, the comments are mostly FUD by today's standards for one, and not clear or well expressed for another.

Well, I've read about the various Mac/Adobe issues. Windows has its issues but color management has at least been consistent over the years. The only remnant I deal with is the disabling of printing from Photoshop with color management disabled since some version of CS. The workaround is the null transform (assigning a profile then printing using the same exact one, interestingly, with any intent!). It works and, since acquiring an iSis, I've verified it works. So, annoying as it is to get Adobe's scary warning, I just ignore it and continue when I need that feature*. Why they can't or don't offer the old option appears to be a side effect of Mac compatibility. However, it does mean I have to run a quick check on every Adobe update to make sure.

*it doesn't often come up not printing targets. An example where it's useful is arranging a collage of prints on a large sheet where some of the images are to be printed with Rel. Col and others with Perceptual. Convert to printer space using whatever intent is desired then paste in the collage. Easy peasy.
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eronald

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2018, 04:37:41 PM »

My next question is, do you own any Epson's (which?) and can you illustrate being a photographer other than what I see here; presumably you holding 'a camera' of some kind:

This sounds suspiciously like asking whether I have standing to launch a class action. Have you decided to embark on a more lucrative career in the law, Andrew?  :P

Edmund
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2018, 04:51:19 PM »

This sounds suspiciously like asking whether I have standing to launch a class action. Have you decided to embark on a more lucrative career in the law, Andrew?  :P
Edmund
It’s a simple question which appears you can not answer. If you have only imagined it, you haven’t experienced it so which is it?
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2018, 05:09:04 PM »

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons.

If you are going to speak for photographers, be useful useful to know if you have experience as a photographer (above and beyond snapshots and cell phone pics).

Hard to tell, little transparency here.
Searching 'the Google' for Edmund Ronald, not much comes up and what does is old, filled with dead links or 'photo's' that could be from cell phones at best. For example:

https://luminous-landscape.com/author/edmund-ronald-ph-d/
Basically a few snapshots but a link to a web page that goes nowhere.

http://photofeedback.blogspot.fr
Your blog that hasn't been updated in 5 years, more photo's that could be those from a cell phone.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/art_Edmund_Ronald_002.php
An old article with no photo's (despite the topic) and another bad URL there:
www.monitor-calibration.net.

There's this tidbit:
Edmund Ronald has a Ph.D. in applied mathematics, and he is currently on a sabbatical as a photographer in Paris.
Edmund Ronald's blog can be found at www.monitor-calibration.net.
No, that URL is no good either.
Seems a long sabbatical with few images.....

 
So again, are you a photographer with an Epson?
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Andrew Rodney
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eronald

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2018, 05:30:02 PM »

I own a Canon Inc. cellphone, and a 3880, so I guess I'm a photographer with an Epson :)
Planning to get a used wide format again eventually, to replace the 9600 which i junked.

Edmund

So again, are you a photographer with an Epson?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 05:40:00 PM by eronald »
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Schewe

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2018, 07:27:41 PM »

I own a Canon Inc. cellphone....

I didn't know Canon made cell phones :~)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2018, 07:41:13 PM »

DR. Ronald, PhD, still hasn't answered the questions I put to him in reply 25. Could that be because there aren't any?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2018, 07:59:29 PM »

I own a Canon Inc. cellphone, and a 3880, so I guess I'm a photographer with an Epson :)
That's your experience as a photographer?
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Andrew Rodney
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