Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Doug Gray on January 19, 2018, 01:37:26 pm

Title: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 19, 2018, 01:37:26 pm
From time to time various people, including some professional photographers and high end printers, find that they prefer the results of using "Printer Manages Color" over Photoshop (or other application) manages color. It is, in fact, not uncommon that "Printer Manages Color" makes very different prints. My Canon 9500 II radically shifts colors. In many areas it increases green to cyan saturation levels up to 20 dE and significantly bumps up luminance. The results are pretty garish under bright light (500 lux) but not unappealing at moderate room lighting levels of, say 120 lux.

The problem of course is that there is no way to really tell exactly what the print is going to look like when working in Photoshop. Worse, if you find that you really like a print made that way you are out of luck if you try to print the same image on a different printer. Especially from another manufacturer.

But there is one way to put this under color management which makes it possible to print with the unique characteristics of one printer on different printers, including printers made in the future but it requires the ability to make custom profiles.

Here's how to do it with I1Profiler.

Make a new profile but, instead of disabling color management, just save the target tif image then assign it to the same color space used to make the print you like. This is usually either sRGB or Adobe RGB. Then select the same device driver settings that were used to make the "Printer Manages Color" print. Print the target and make a new profile.

Now, assign that profile to the original images you desire to convert into the colors made by "Printer Manages Color."  Then convert the image to a larger color space using Relative Colorimetric Intent. ProPhoto RGB will always work fine but you should always be working in 16 bits.

You can now print the image using "Photoshop Manages Color" normally and selecting relative colorimetric. This will quite precisely duplicate the effect of using "Printer Manages Color" and the same print can be made with a future printer using relative colorimetric to retain the look of a prior printer's print.

This approach, while providing a way to make a colorimetric image file of the "Printer Manages" transform, cannot be used like a normal profile. One must follow the machinations of assigning the special profile then converting to a normal working space wide enough to hold the image gamut. The image in Photoshop would then be the same as what a soft proof would be.

Theoretically, a normal profile is possible where the Perceptual Intent ICC profile tables incorporates the transform and then folks could use that profile normally. Perceptual intent would produce the same print as a "Printer Manages Color" would. However, this can't be done with I1PRofiler. There may be a way with Argyll and clearly would be by modifying the source code. Graeme would know.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 19, 2018, 01:43:24 pm
Clever, but the whole purpose of "Printer Manages Color" is to keep things REAL EASY for those who can't be bothered with colour management. If one is going to go to all this effort to obtain inter-device consistency with Printer Manages Color, why not just use a normal ICC colour-managed workflow that is premised on this very objective and rely on one's image editing application under soft-proof to get the "look" one wants? This is a philosophic point - not arguing about the technicalities.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 19, 2018, 01:59:26 pm
Clever, but the whole purpose of "Printer Manages Color" is to keep things REAL EASY for those who can't be bothered with colour management. If one is going to go to all this effort to obtain inter-device consistency with Printer Manages Color, why not just use a normal ICC colour-managed workflow that is premised on this very objective and rely on one's image editing application under soft-proof to get the "look" one wants? This is a philosophic point - not arguing about the technicalities.

Well yeah!  But there are some few that seem color management knowledgeable yet apparently can't seem to get the prints they like except by using "Printer Manages." So this if for people like Ctien. It does offer one advantage. Reproducible results on different printers.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 19, 2018, 02:03:21 pm
............... So this if for people like Ctien. ...............

Expect a storm Doug!  :-)
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Simon Garrett on January 20, 2018, 04:07:07 am
I'm struggling to get the point of the first post here, but maybe that's because things are very different with the Epson printers I've used with colour management.

With "Photoshop manages colours" I select the printer profile in PS, and set the printer to make no colour adjustment.  On Epson printers that typically means setting "Mode" to "Off (no colour adjustment)", or sometimes on older printers to "ICM" (Image Colour Management) and then a sub-setting of "off".

With "Printer manages colours", PS sends the image unaltered (i.e. in Working Space) to the printer, and I set the printer to "ICM" mode, and in sub-settings set the input colour space (to PS's Working Space) and choose the printer profile.

The end result in both cases should be (and is) very similar.  In one case I'm using PS's colour rendering engine and in the other I'm using Epson's.  But both should produce the same result, and in my experience of several Epson printers, the results are near identical.  Certainly not 20 dE differences in saturation or luminance. 

If Canon's colour management engine produces such major differences, it would suggest that it's completely dysfunctional.

Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 20, 2018, 05:14:18 am
and I set the printer to "ICM" mode, and in sub-settings set the input colour space (to PS's Working Space) and choose the printer profile.
.........
Or am I missing something?
This is a discussion about what happens if you don't select ICM in the driver and leave it one of the 'auto' modes and have no input at all with the printer's colour management.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: GWGill on January 20, 2018, 07:01:09 am
Theoretically, a normal profile is possible where the Perceptual Intent ICC profile tables incorporates the transform and then folks could use that profile normally. Perceptual intent would produce the same print as a "Printer Manages Color" would. However, this can't be done with I1PRofiler. There may be a way with Argyll and clearly would be by modifying the source code. Graeme would know.
Hmm. Maybe I'm not getting what you are trying to do, but the normal way you would emulate the behaviour of an output device is to profile it, and then use that profile as the source profile in a color managed workflow.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Simon Garrett on January 20, 2018, 11:02:36 am
This is a discussion about what happens if you don't select ICM in the driver and leave it one of the 'auto' modes and have no input at all with the printer's colour management.

Understood!
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on January 20, 2018, 11:40:10 am
Expect a storm Doug!  :-)
+1 to a degree. Some of his comments however imply not soft proofing, not picking a rendering intent and not using a full color managed path is going to produce a 'better' print. And with less than ideal output profiles and poor display calibration if any, and without perhaps some output specific edits based on doing all this correctly, that's possible but NOT recommended.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 20, 2018, 01:57:25 pm
Hmm. Maybe I'm not getting what you are trying to do, but the normal way you would emulate the behaviour of an output device is to profile it, and then use that profile as the source profile in a color managed workflow.

Graeme,
That is exactly what's happening. When the special profile that is made from printing the target assigned to sRGB space is assigned to a photo in sRGB space. Then, when printing on a different printer conversions occur in Photoshop like this:

sRGB initially assigned then AtoB1 with the special profile made in sRGB space then BtoA1 with the output profile of the target printer. Aside from assigning sRGB initially, this is standard color management workflow.

This works because the AtoB1 (RelCol) tables reflect the perceptual mapping that occurs when printing sRGB images directly letting the printer manage color. The problem is that the BtoA0 (Perc) will not. Rather they will reflect the perceptual mapping baked into the I1Profiler which is quite different.

The problem is people are not used to doing this. Here's how I view the problem.

If the manufacturer wanted to they could simply provide normal ICC profiles that were made with constrained colorspaces. For instance, a profile constrained to sRGB could map the PCS using Perceptual in exactly the same way as letting the printer manage color handles sRGB directly. They could also provide one for Adobe RGB source images.  The difference here is that these profiles would be made with the source gamut, either sRGB or Adobe RGB, known. However, this would expand and complicate things because profiles for these constrained spaces would have to be labeled for use with the associated, constrained RGB space.

It would be nice if the hidden, printer manages, perceptual mapping from an RGB constrained space could somehow be created for the BtoA0 tables. Then one could achieve exactly the same results using normal, app based, color management. It would also provide normal soft proofing.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 20, 2018, 02:15:13 pm
+1 to a degree. Some of his comments however imply not soft proofing, not picking a rendering intent and not using a full color managed path is going to produce a 'better' print. And with less than ideal output profiles and poor display calibration if any, and without perhaps some output specific edits based on doing all this correctly, that's possible but NOT recommended.

Well, not much you can do when people choose to avoid color management. They get what they get. It might be perfectly fine for them but it will be specific to that printer/paper. Change printers and they will often get a different result and there is little they can do about it.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: TonyW on January 20, 2018, 06:15:05 pm
Well, not much you can do when people choose to avoid color management. They get what they get. It might be perfectly fine for them but it will be specific to that printer/paper. Change printers and they will often get a different result and there is little they can do about it.
From memory Ctein said that printer manages colour would only work satisfactorily on a Mac and fir some reason that currently escapes me not on Windows. 

TBH I could not understand why this may be the case although I could see that colour management may require more user input to make sure it is being used by Windows OS. 

Other than that is there any reason to expect a difference between Mac or Windows OS?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 20, 2018, 07:03:32 pm
From memory Ctein said that printer manages colour would only work satisfactorily on a Mac and fir some reason that currently escapes me not on Windows. 

TBH I could not understand why this may be the case although I could see that colour management may require more user input to make sure it is being used by Windows OS. 

Other than that is there any reason to expect a difference between Mac or Windows OS?

IIRC, there was a discussion with Ctien and an Adobe guru where it was stated that Macs allow "Printer Manages" to use either Adobe RGB or sRGB while Windows always converts RGB spaces to sRGB and his images were in Adobe RGB. This may be true in the specific case of letting the Windows driver print using its defaults but isn't  generally true for all Windows printers and driver options. Garrett pointed this out earlier in this thread.  You can do color management in the driver by selecting the printer profile, incoming RGB colorspace, and intent on many Epson printers. I have tested this on the Epson 9800 and ICM color management in the driver works perfectly.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on January 20, 2018, 09:19:55 pm
IIRC, there was a discussion with Ctien and an Adobe guru where it was stated that Macs allow "Printer Manages" to use either Adobe RGB or sRGB while Windows always converts RGB spaces to sRGB and his images were in Adobe RGB.
That was Dave Polaschek of Adobe, he's the engineer on the PS team who handles printing. All his comments at the time can be found here:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/07/andrew-rodney-on-the-importance-of-custom-printer-profiles.html (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/07/andrew-rodney-on-the-importance-of-custom-printer-profiles.html)
Specifically (and the bottom line):

Picking "Printer Manages Colors" on Windows guarantees that your color data will be converted to sRGB. We could adopt XPS printing to get around that, but there are many new and exciting bugs waiting to be found by the first application to head down that path.

On Mac, Picking "Vendor Color Management" and "Adobe RGB" does not mean the color data will automatically be converted to Adobe RGB. It means that untagged color data will be treated as Adobe RGB. When I last discussed this with the Apple printing engineers, I got a long explanation of when color conversions will happen, and the printer driver gets a chance to say to the OS "Yes, I can use color data in that color space" or "No, please convert that color data to XXXXX profile for me" (where XXXXX is the default profile for the printer, which you can set in ColorSync Utility.app).

When using "Printer Manages Colors" on Mac OS X, with a printer driver that says "Yes, send the color data as-is" when asked about what the application is offering to print, that data will be passed to the driver without conversion. I've done this with CIELAB data. I don't believe Epson's drivers will accept CIELAB, but when last I investigated (when the x900 printers shipped), they would accept ProPhoto RGB when using "Printer Manages Colors." There was only one conversion of the color data to the printer's final profile, and that was done by the driver.

All else being equal, fewer conversions between color spaces is preferable.

I still think using "Photoshop Manages Colors" is preferable if you take the time to construct an optimal profile, have a challenging document to print, and can manage to do everything correctly. But the results from using "Printer Manages Colors," especially if you are using papers supported by your printer vendor, are extremely close to optimal, and most users should at least give that a try and look at the results before investing in the hardware needed, plus the time needed to build a good color profile.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: TonyW on January 21, 2018, 07:22:03 am
Thanks Doug, I did not remember that it was sRGB conversion.

Andrew thanks for the link I had not seen this before today
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 21, 2018, 07:50:33 pm
I came up with this to display the rather large color shifts that the Canon 9500 II makes using Printer Manages Color. Graphs relative to a* and b* for a given L* value show vectors that point from the requested color to the actual printed color. These all started with colors that were in sRGB space as well as in the printer gamut at 10 unit intervals of a* and b*.

The left side shows L* change for a given a*,b* coordinate while the right side shows the hue/saturation shift which is from the requested a*,b* to the printed a*,b*

Of particular note is that the Canon brightens up the image. A LOT!. It also significantly shifts colors. Generally increasing the cyan and cyan/green saturation but decreasing that of the purples. Also it's curious the shifts that are made to the blues where the hue angle increases and decreases within a very small range. The Canon Printer Manages also strongly shifts the purples toward the blue, and less purplish. It's a really big shift. Shows up in photos where the "blue" sky becomes more blue/cyan with less red tint in it.

Compare this to the subtle changes that a custom profile from I1Profiler makes in Perceptual using Photoshop Manages Color. As expected, color saturation isn't increased and is only decreased near the gamut edges where Perceptual is blended smoothly rather than clipping suddenly.

Updated with results of Epson 9800 Printer Manages chart added.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: nirpat89 on January 23, 2018, 12:44:07 am
This might be a simplistic point (that's all I am capable of when it comes to color management,) but since paper profiling is normally done from an application managed workflow, whether through X-rite or ACPU or by fooling Photoshop a la Doug Gray, why would a "printer managed" printing of the actual image using the same profile be better than "Photoshop managed."  Or should be even considered? 

What am I missing?

:Niranjan.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 23, 2018, 02:19:24 am
I've added images showing how prints vary when using Printer Manages Color with the Epson 9800 and Canon 9800. Papers used were Epson Glossy Prem. Photo and Canon Pro Platinum.

Shown are images of standard colorchecker and neutral tone patches as well as the classic Kodak PDI image.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 23, 2018, 02:29:58 am
This might be a simplistic point (that's all I am capable of when it comes to color management,) but since paper profiling is normally done from an application managed workflow, whether through X-rite or ACPU or by fooling Photoshop a la Doug Gray, why would a "printer managed" printing of the actual image using the same profile be better than "Photoshop managed."  Or should be even considered? 

What am I missing?

:Niranjan.

Some people prefer Printer Manages color to normal ICC managed printing. So this provides a mechanism to transform an image such that it can be printed using ICC profile workflow but reproduce the printed image the same way it would be printed using Printer Manages. It may well be that newer printers do a better job but the 9500 pushes both luminance and saturation quite a bit. The 9800 pushes luminance but only about half as much as the 9500 but saturation is less affected.

I printed the three Kodak images as described and let a couple people select the one they liked best. They chose the one printed using standard ICC Photoshop Manages Color but found them all fairly similar.

Note that the posted images are in Adobe RGB though the originals had been converted to sRGB first. Adobe RGB is required because the 9500 printer manages increases saturation beyond sRGB.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Chris Kern on January 23, 2018, 07:07:48 pm
How many photographers other than Ctein argue that prints turn out better under printer-managed color than under application-manged color?  I understand some people are happy with the results they get when they turn over control to their printers, but unless you believe you're better off that way, this approach seems to me more complicated than setting up a color-managed application workflow.  (Which ain't that complicated, wot?)

If one is going to go to all this effort to obtain inter-device consistency with Printer Manages Color, why not just use a normal ICC colour-managed workflow that is premised on this very objective and rely on one's image editing application under soft-proof to get the "look" one wants?

This, I think, is the essential point.  From my perspective, there's more to soft-proofing than getting the colors right.  When you transfer an image from a high-dynamic-range transmissive computer display to a low-dynamic-range reflective medium like paper, adjustments other than color accuracy may be required to make it look the way you want.  At least, that's been my experience, printing from Lightroom and using the simulate paper and ink option to see the effect of the migration between media.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on January 23, 2018, 08:45:10 pm
How many photographers other than Ctein argue that prints turn out better under printer-managed color than under application-manged color?  I understand some people are happy with the results they get when they turn over control to their printers, but unless you believe you're better off that way, this approach seems to me more complicated than setting up a color-managed application workflow.  (Which ain't that complicated, wot?)

This, I think, is the essential point.  From my perspective, there's more to soft-proofing than getting the colors right.  When you transfer an image from a high-dynamic-range transmissive computer display to a low-dynamic-range reflective medium like paper, adjustments other than color accuracy may be required to make it look the way you want.  At least, that's been my experience, printing from Lightroom and using the simulate paper and ink option to see the effect of the migration between media.

Can't say I disagree. I view "Printer Manages defaults" as a printer/paper specific perceptual mode with the disadvantage that you can's soft proof it nor tell exactly what you get. The process I outlined provides a way to process the image such that, when printed in colorimetric mode, it replicates the specific printer managed rendering. And you can do that with any other printer/paper combination so long as the gamut is at least as broad as the original printer. It wouldn't work, for instance, going from glossy to matte unless the original image print was within the matte gamut.  It's a way to preserve the ability to make the same prints when upgrading printers.

Mostly, it was just an academic exercise of little use for 99% of people. Also, most of the few that prefer to use printer manages color probably don't have the tools required.

I do find it curious that the two printers have pretty different prints. One expands sRGB into more saturated areas, the other does the inverse. And both increase luminance. The 9500 bumps it a really large amount. Weird.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Kemosabe on April 17, 2018, 10:12:22 pm
Hi, my 1st post. 

I own a Canon Pro 4000 printer.  I always let the Printer manage the colors in a highly controlled CMM environment.  1st off I don't print from adobe unless I'm forced to.  Canon's canvas printing tools are only provided via PhotoShop.

I don't quite understand what you guys mean when you are saying that Windows defaults to sRGB color space.  That doesn't happen on my systems.  I set the color space in the application to AdobeRGB and it sticks. 

Let me say that I print almost exclusively from Canon's Print Studio Pro or Qimage Ultimate.  My monitor has a greater than AdobeRGB calibrated color space.  What I see on monitor is what i get on print. 

One feels a little slighted when I hear you guys say that the printer manages color folks don't know what their doing. 

Logic dictates that Canon had to know what they are doing when they profiled their printer and media into a tightly integrated color manage system.  I get better results when I set the ICC profile of the media in the printer and the printer driver and let the PRO 4000 manage the colors typically set in relative color-metric.  I then verify the color gamut volumes in ColorThink Pro.

One tends to think that the above is a more complex printing methodology resulting in a superior color managed work flow with outstanding results in print. 
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 17, 2018, 10:17:05 pm
See post 14 and Dave P of Adobes comments about Windows, Printer Manages Color and sRGB.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 11:38:06 am
How many photographers other than Ctein argue that prints turn out better under printer-managed color than under application-manged color?  I understand some people are happy with the results they get when they turn over control to their printers, but unless you believe you're better off that way, this approach seems to me more complicated than setting up a color-managed application workflow.  (Which ain't that complicated, wot?)

This, I think, is the essential point.  From my perspective, there's more to soft-proofing than getting the colors right.  When you transfer an image from a high-dynamic-range transmissive computer display to a low-dynamic-range reflective medium like paper, adjustments other than color accuracy may be required to make it look the way you want.  At least, that's been my experience, printing from Lightroom and using the simulate paper and ink option to see the effect of the migration between media.

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow with sRGB-tagged images is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust. The non-regression testing seems to work. Profiled printing seems to be a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.

If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS. There's a reason I have a frozen machine for profiling and printing.I'm not going to argue that sRGB or PMC is exactly a lifestyle enhancement, but often safe and on-time is better than pushing the edge.


Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 11:49:31 am
I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust.
You can argue it all you want, when ink hits the paper, it doesn't wash. At least on my Epson's with my images and NOT with sRGB. And I prefer to have the ability to soft proof, pick a rendering intent, make print specific edits based on that etc. Robust is a subjective term, preferred by consumers is vague (I'm a consumer and a photographer). PMC isn't robust enough to allow the capabilities I've outlined above. For me and others who can speak for themselves as either or both photographers and/or consumers.
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If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS.
FUD! Epson supplies a host of ICC profiles, some better than others for their papers. 3rd party paper manufacturers can do the same.
With your logic, soft proofing isn't worthwhile (perhaps to you) because there's an extra step involved. Ditto with editing images or for that matter, exposing your captures correctly.
For cell phone users, and perhaps you consider yourself that kind of photographer, yeah, stick with PCM and any or all 'auto' corrections or anything else to print your photos. For pro's, not so much.

"A professional is someone who can do his best work when he doesn't feel like it."-Alistair Cooke

"Professionalism is knowing how to do it, when to do it, and doing it."-Frank Tyger
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 20, 2018, 11:59:31 am
(1) I would argue that Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. (2) The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust. (3) The non-regression testing seems to work. (4) Profiled printing seems to be a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.

(5) If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS. There's a reason I have a frozen machine for profiling and printing.


Edmund

I have numbered each of your sentences above for ease of reference.

(1) and (2): Using the passive voice is a time-worn way of evading responsibility for providing evidence or substantiation. Who says it is the preferred consumer workflow? Which consumers? Define "consumers". Once you've identified where this "preferred consumer workflow" business comes from, please state what their reasons are for preferring it. How does this preference necessarily make this workflow "fairly robust"?

(3) Please unpack this sentence. I don't have a clue what you are talking about and I've been testing print workflows for years. As well, I know what regression analysis is because I've used it for decades.

(4) I've been using ICC-profiled print workflows with Epson printers for a very long time and I never had live scorpion claws waving at me out of the printer, or from anywhere else for that matter. Where issues have arisen, there's nothing that an up-dated profile hasn't corrected. The most contemporary data I can provide attesting to the reliability of ICC-profiled printer workflows is my experience with the Epson SC-P5000 which I started using on April Fool's Day of 2017 - my waste ratio is 1.8% (one point 8 percent) on over 850 sq.ft. printed. The waste ratio is defined as printed square feet trashed relative to printed square feet retained. ALL of it had nothing to do with colour management issues; most it was pilot error due to me noticing editing errors on paper that I should have picked-up on the display.

(5) The worst that can happen is that one may need to update a profile. And this seldom happens save for an application bug interfering with the integrity of the CMS and this is a rare occurrence.

In sum, I think none of this makes any sense.

Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 12:08:35 pm
I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons.
Maybe you should examine what's been shown in the past here with actual examples, not (as Mark nicely puts it) a passive voice:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124034.msg1036122#msg1036122 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124034.msg1036122#msg1036122)


http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124034.msg1036439#msg1036439 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124034.msg1036439#msg1036439)
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 12:20:08 pm
I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons.
My next question is, do you own any Epson's (which?) and can you illustrate being a photographer other than what I see here; presumably you holding 'a camera' of some kind:

Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on April 20, 2018, 01:52:36 pm
I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons. The reason is that for Epson, Apple, Adobe and others the PMC workflow with sRGB-tagged images is considered to be the preferred consumer workflow, and as such it is fairly robust.
I agree.  Most printer purchasers have no knowledge of colorspaces or icc profiles and probably have their time taken up by other things more important to them. Since this is by far the largest market for photo printers, the companies have done significant research into what makes a print "look best" compared to the image on their monitor. This means studying the average illumination people view their prints in as well as the average monitor's characteristics and gathering a lot of data from actual testing with consumers. Generally, prints that are found most pleasing (and hence most like what they see on their display) have increased brightness and color saturation. How much each of these is done depends on what each manufacture believes their customers prefer. As a result there are differences in how prints look when the same image is printed using PMC on different printers. But, of course most people don't have multiple printers that they have printed the same image. They just print something and want it to look good.
Quote
The non-regression testing seems to work.

To what are you referring?

Quote
Profiled printing seems to be a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.

I find quite the opposite. Profiling printer/papers results in a high degree of equivalence and consistency across printers.

Quote
If you want profiled printing to work, you better be prepared to spend a lot of time at each update of the OS or PS.
I've been profiling printers since Windows XP and PS CS and I've never seen any printer profiling issues from an upgrade. Lots of other issues though.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 01:59:01 pm
I've been profiling printers since Windows XP and PS CS and I've never seen any printer profiling issues from an upgrade. Lots of other issues though.
He's probably (?) referring to issues on MacOS with Adobe and Epson that were around quite awhile ago when the three companies where not working together, as they do now, to communicate with each other. I can't recall a Mac/Epson/Adobe issue in many years. Also, his description (a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.) is filled with FUD-ish and unnecessary non-technical language for someone we are told is a photographic, color and PhD savvy writer in subjects like this.   ;)
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on April 20, 2018, 03:47:48 pm
He's probably (?) referring to issues on MacOS with Adobe and Epson that were around quite awhile ago when the three companies where not working together, as they do now, to communicate with each other. I can't recall a Mac/Epson/Adobe issue in many years. Also, his description (a bit like "Plat du Jour" in a french restaurant, one day you get a delicious stew, the next time the chef sends over a plate  with a live scorpion waving its claws at you.) is filled with FUD-ish and unnecessary non-technical language for someone we are told is a photographic, color and PhD savvy writer in subjects like this.   ;)
While quite a florid description, he describes a problem or state of things I have never seen. If anything, profiles bring a remarkable level of consistency to printing. OTOH, what profiling is, how it works, and what to expect from it, is second nature to me.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 03:53:00 pm
While quite a florid description, he describes a problem or state of things I have never seen. If anything, profiles bring a remarkable level of consistency to printing. OTOH, what profiling is, how it works, and what to expect from it, is second nature to me.
Well the problems had really nothing to do with profiles per se. So you're observations are correct. Going back a number of years, there were issues with Epson trying to "fix" what they thought was Adobe or Apple 'bugs' and then Adobe doing the same etc, with no communication among the group. I can't say PMC was immune either, it just wasn't on my radar at the time. As I said, thanks to the efforts of some of us who post here (Pixel Mafia and such), people who have worked with all three companies for awhile, the three companies finally got together and as I stated, it's been a number of years since there were any such issues on the MacOS with Epson/Adobe and printing. So yeah, the comments are mostly FUD by today's standards for one, and not clear or well expressed for another.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on April 20, 2018, 04:31:56 pm
Well the problems had really nothing to do with profiles per se. So you're observations are correct. Going back a number of years, there were issues with Epson trying to "fix" what they thought was Adobe or Apple 'bugs' and then Adobe doing the same etc, with no communication among the group. I can't say PMC was immune either, it just wasn't on my radar at the time. As I said, thanks to the efforts of some of us who post here (Pixel Mafia and such), people who have worked with all three companies for awhile, the three companies finally got together and as I stated, it's been a number of years since there were any such issues on the MacOS with Epson/Adobe and printing. So yeah, the comments are mostly FUD by today's standards for one, and not clear or well expressed for another.

Well, I've read about the various Mac/Adobe issues. Windows has its issues but color management has at least been consistent over the years. The only remnant I deal with is the disabling of printing from Photoshop with color management disabled since some version of CS. The workaround is the null transform (assigning a profile then printing using the same exact one, interestingly, with any intent!). It works and, since acquiring an iSis, I've verified it works. So, annoying as it is to get Adobe's scary warning, I just ignore it and continue when I need that feature*. Why they can't or don't offer the old option appears to be a side effect of Mac compatibility. However, it does mean I have to run a quick check on every Adobe update to make sure.

*it doesn't often come up not printing targets. An example where it's useful is arranging a collage of prints on a large sheet where some of the images are to be printed with Rel. Col and others with Perceptual. Convert to printer space using whatever intent is desired then paste in the collage. Easy peasy.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 04:37:41 pm
My next question is, do you own any Epson's (which?) and can you illustrate being a photographer other than what I see here; presumably you holding 'a camera' of some kind:

This sounds suspiciously like asking whether I have standing to launch a class action. Have you decided to embark on a more lucrative career in the law, Andrew?  :P

Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 04:51:19 pm
This sounds suspiciously like asking whether I have standing to launch a class action. Have you decided to embark on a more lucrative career in the law, Andrew?  :P
Edmund
It’s a simple question which appears you can not answer. If you have only imagined it, you haven’t experienced it so which is it?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 05:09:04 pm
I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons.

If you are going to speak for photographers, be useful useful to know if you have experience as a photographer (above and beyond snapshots and cell phone pics).

Hard to tell, little transparency here.
Searching 'the Google' for Edmund Ronald, not much comes up and what does is old, filled with dead links or 'photo's' that could be from cell phones at best. For example:

https://luminous-landscape.com/author/edmund-ronald-ph-d/ (https://luminous-landscape.com/author/edmund-ronald-ph-d/)
Basically a few snapshots but a link to a web page that goes nowhere.

http://photofeedback.blogspot.fr (http://photofeedback.blogspot.fr)
Your blog that hasn't been updated in 5 years, more photo's that could be those from a cell phone.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/art_Edmund_Ronald_002.php (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/art_Edmund_Ronald_002.php)
An old article with no photo's (despite the topic) and another bad URL there:
www.monitor-calibration.net (http://www.monitor-calibration.net).

There's this tidbit:
Edmund Ronald has a Ph.D. in applied mathematics, and he is currently on a sabbatical as a photographer in Paris.
Edmund Ronald's blog can be found at www.monitor-calibration.net (http://www.monitor-calibration.net).
No, that URL is no good either.
Seems a long sabbatical with few images.....

 
So again, are you a photographer with an Epson?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 05:30:02 pm
I own a Canon Inc. cellphone, and a 3880, so I guess I'm a photographer with an Epson :)
Planning to get a used wide format again eventually, to replace the 9600 which i junked.

Edmund

So again, are you a photographer with an Epson?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Schewe on April 20, 2018, 07:27:41 pm
I own a Canon Inc. cellphone....

I didn't know Canon made cell phones :~)
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 20, 2018, 07:41:13 pm
DR. Ronald, PhD, still hasn't answered the questions I put to him in reply 25. Could that be because there aren't any?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 07:59:29 pm
I own a Canon Inc. cellphone, and a 3880, so I guess I'm a photographer with an Epson :)
That's your experience as a photographer?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 08:28:29 pm
DR. Ronald, PhD, still hasn't answered the questions I put to him in reply 25. Could that be because there aren't any?

Mark,

 An accidental query in my email window just brought up a colorsync list discussion we were having in ... 2011 when printing targets on Macs had turned into a nightmare.
 I think we've all already been around the block more than once, and owe each other more courtesy.
 If you want a PhD too, just go and get one. Like an expensive car it doesn't make the owner smarter but it does have bling value.  Getting it only eats 3 years of your life, and after what it cost me to get it, I do enjoy showing it off. If you were to remark that I would have had a more enriching life experience by educating kids for an NGO in the third world for a few years instead of my doctoral work, and would have become a better person and done some good, then I would agree. But I don't think that was your intent.

Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 08:32:31 pm
DR. Ronald, PhD, still hasn't answered the questions I put to him in reply 25. Could that be because there aren't any?
Seems there aren't any....
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 20, 2018, 08:42:27 pm
Mark,

 An accidental query in my email window just brought up a colorsync list discussion we were having in ... 2011 when printing targets on Macs had turned into a nightmare.
 I think we've all already been around the block more than once, and owe each other more courtesy.
 If you want a PhD too, just go and get one. Like an expensive car it doesn't make the owner smarter but it does have bling value.  Getting it only eats 3 years of your life, and after what it cost me to get it, I do enjoy showing it off. If you were to remark that I would have had a more enriching life experience by educating kids for an NGO in the third world for a few years instead of my doctoral work, and would have become a better person and done some good, then I would agree. But I don't think that was your intent.

Edmund

Yes, there was a problem in 2011 that Adobe resolved, and there was an Adobe problem about two years ago which I wrote an article about on this website and Adobe resolved it - pretty quickly. That's two episodes in 7 years both of which Adobe resolved.

No, my intent was to suggest that someone with your level of education should be able to substantiate/explain what they say on a Forum like this, especially when the claims made seem so outlandish to others who may not have PhDs, but aren't dopes either. Questions remain unanswered. It's not a matter of courtesy and I am immune to "bling". I'm only interested in real answers to sensible questions.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on April 20, 2018, 09:33:25 pm
As an aside, the smartest guy I ever hired was a PhD and it happened when I wasn't looking to hire anyone. I was chatting with a UCSD Prof. about some stuff I was working on and he mentioned he knew a former student that might be available, giving his name. I about fell off my chair. Turned out I had been browsing their library and  pulled the guy's thesis the week before because he had been investigating things I was also interested in developing commercially. It was open, sitting on my desk at the time.  Flew him out for an interview and hired the guy. Heavy into abstract algebra and coding theory. My experience with PhDs has been quite positive.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 09:42:34 pm
That's your experience as a photographer?

Yeah. Notice the little die on the shoulder of the model? It means "Dior". The lady with the die was my first fullpage magazine picture, back in prehistoric days. When I still thought that becoming a photographer might be a good idea. These days I think being a computer geek might actually be more rewarding :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 09:55:26 pm
I'm only interested in real answers to sensible questions.

Dear Mark,

Here is an excerpt of an email I exchanged with Dave Polashek, back in 2010 when I was the color engineer for the Gutenprint printing system, and I was tracing various issues which occurred in the color management on the Mac print path. Dave was extremely helpful, as I was trying to figure out where the issues lay. For context, Samplerasterprinter was some Apple sample code that created a fake printer, which I modded a bit to check the color flow without using ink. Later I found a way to hack the Mac's CUPS print system to do the same inspection task without needing to compile this piece of code.

The indented lines are mine.

As you can see, Dave considered the "Printer Manages Colors" to be "pretty well exercised" which in my book is what I would call "preferred". There were actually some minor issues here and many more on the other path, implicitly here because it was less exercised. I think the distribution of consumers/pros hasn't changed so much in 8 or so years, nor the API calls to apply color conversions, and would expect the printpaths to still enjoy the same popularity, complexity, and test priority, which is why I consider PMC to be the most reliable if not the best way to print..

I hope this was the level of detail you were expecting me to provide as evidence of my total ignorance of the topic at hand. Print system engineers   are extremely interested in ensuring the correct the behavior of print systems, and they use a bunch of diagnostic tools, including here software like trick profiles and fake printers they mod themselves, and of course spectros which get used to check the actual prints.

Although the fact that I have a PhD virtually guarantees in your eyes that I am a total failure not only as a photographer but also as an engineer, maybe we can now decide that I have an opinion on this issue, you have one, they are not aligned but neither is necessarily absurd. And also, some of my wierdness concerning a topic recently discussed on the colorsync list stems from the fact that much alcohol was consumed since then, many braincells died and so  I have forgotten most of the details that I knew about inkjet print preprocessing, while some other conversation participants never knew them. 

Best Regards,

Edmund
--------

> I slightly modded sampleraster printer (sRGB in lieu of
> Generic RGB in ppd file) . Preliminary testing with
> trick profiles indicates that
>
> - "Printer Manages Color" works well  from CS5 with any
> profile that can then be selected in the Snow Leopard
> printer dialog profile box being applied as convert, with
> the assigned original document profile correctly respected.

Right. That's a pretty well exercised code-path, with nothing especially tricky happening.
---------
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 10:36:32 pm
Yeah. Notice the little die on the shoulder of the model? It means "Dior". The lady with the die was my first fullpage magazine picture, back in prehistoric days. When I still thought that becoming a photographer might be a good idea. These days I think being a computer geek might actually be more rewarding :)

Edmund

Yeah, editorials; been there, done that; low paying work. No wonder you gave it up for a doctorate.
Now advertising photography for a client like Microsoft, including the Photoshop work when few photographers were doing their own imaging, that paid well!

That full page editorial of yours was for what mag?
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 10:41:10 pm

Yeah, editorials; been there, done that; low paying work. No wonder you gave it up for a doctorate.
Now advertising photography for a client like Microsoft, including the Photoshop work when few photographers were doing their own imaging, that paid well!

That full page editorial of yours was for what mag?

You never told me how you got appointed special prosecutor, Andrew.

Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 20, 2018, 10:52:32 pm
Dear Mark,

Here is an excerpt of an email I exchanged with Dave Polashek, back in 2010 when I was the color engineer for the Gutenprint printing system, and I was tracing various issues which occurred in the color management on the Mac print path. Dave was extremely helpful, as I was trying to figure out where the issues lay. For context, Samplerasterprinter was some Apple sample code that created a fake printer, which I modded a bit to check the color flow without using ink. Later I found a way to hack the Mac's CUPS print system to do the same inspection task without needing to compile this piece of code.

The indented lines are mine.

As you can see, Dave considered the "Printer Manages Colors" to be "pretty well exercised" which in my book is what I would call "preferred". There were actually some minor issues here and many more on the other path, implicitly here because it was less exercised. I think the distribution of consumers/pros hasn't changed so much in 8 or so years, nor the API calls to apply color conversions, and would expect the printpaths to still enjoy the same popularity, complexity, and test priority, which is why I consider PMC to be the most reliable if not the best way to print..



Right. That's a pretty well exercised code-path, with nothing especially tricky happening.
---------

OK, in the above extract of your reply I've cut out the crap and just focused on your technical content, which is all I'm interested in. I think this evidence is dated and thin. Since those days, both print paths have undergone substantial technical improvement. Furthermore I wouldn't interpret Dave Polachek's comment in that context to have ranked Printer Color Management as technically superior in terms of printed output to a properly established Application Managed ICC profile based workflow.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2018, 10:53:16 pm
You never told me how you got appointed special prosecutor, Andrew.

Edmund
More absurd comments without answering a simple question.

Let’s examine a quote Dave P. more recently from Ctein’s blog:

“I still think using "Photoshop Manages Colors" is preferable if you take the time to construct an optimal profile, have a challenging document to print, and can manage to do everything correctly. But the results from using "Printer Manages Colors," especially if you are using papers supported by your printer vendor, are extremely close to optimal, and most users should at least give that a try and look at the results before investing in the hardware needed, plus the time needed to build a good color profile.”

Understand the word preferable and why some here prefer this print path? A PhD should not have such difficulty understanding why pros and advanced users/photographers pick such a workflow.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 11:23:19 pm
OK, in the above extract of your reply I've cut out the crap and just focused on your technical content, which is all I'm interested in. I think this evidence is dated and thin. Since those days, both print paths have undergone substantial technical improvement. Furthermore I wouldn't interpret Dave Polachek's comment in that context to have ranked Printer Color Management as technically superior in terms of printed output to a properly established Application Managed ICC profile based workflow.

Mark

  Dave does not write as to his opinion, nor did I ask. I agree with you that a "properly established Application Managed ICC profile based workflow" is superior in many cases, and always when non-vendor media are loaded. But I don't think establishing it is as painless as going straight to PMC, which is why I would recommend amateurs ie. people not in proofing or printing trades stay with PMC and original media when they can.

Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 20, 2018, 11:34:04 pm
Mark

  Dave does not write as to his opinion, nor did I ask. I agree with you that a "properly established Application Managed ICC profile based workflow" is superior in many cases, and always when non-vendor media are loaded. But I don't think establishing it is as painless as going straight to PMC, which is why I would recommend amateurs ie. people not in proofing or printing trades stay with PMC and original media when they can.

Edmund

These days I don't think setting up an application managed workflow with an ICC profile is difficult at all, especially printing through a user-friendly application such as Lightroom. Any normally intelligent person with a modicum of instruction freely available all over the place should be able to manage it correctly with only moderate effort. So I would have no problem recommending this path to anyone just getting into printing digital files. It's reasonable to recommend and instruct best practice from the get-go, given the tools we have today.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2018, 11:47:11 pm
These days I don't think setting up an application managed workflow with an ICC profile is difficult at all, especially printing through a user-friendly application such as Lightroom. Any normally intelligent person with a modicum of instruction freely available all over the place should be able to manage it correctly with only moderate effort. So I would have no problem recommending this path to anyone just getting into printing digital files. It's reasonable to recommend and instruct best practice from the get-go, given the tools we have today.

One might add that anyone with a cheaper printer or older printer generation will get huge benefits from a profiled workflow, because cheaper printers tend to have a wider spread in factory calibration.

Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2018, 12:03:06 am
One might add that anyone with a cheaper printer or older printer generation will get huge benefits from a profiled workflow, because cheaper printers tend to have a wider spread in factory calibration.

Edmund

Yes, in this case likely calling for a custom profile to get it just right.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Doug Gray on April 21, 2018, 12:30:00 am
One might add that anyone with a cheaper printer or older printer generation will get huge benefits from a profiled workflow, because cheaper printers tend to have a wider spread in factory calibration.

Edmund
While it is certainly reasonable that cheaper printers have a wider spread, it's quite apparent that much of the difference between PMC and AMC is intentional boosting of saturation and brightening the tone curve. It seems pretty obvious this is based on OEM's beliefs about what constitutes a "good" print for the average consumer who is most likely viewing the print at lower light levels and a higher surround than when viewing the image on a display.

This causes unavoidable compatibility issues for someone that, for whatever reason. prefers PMC when upgrading printers.

The purpose of my thread was to point out how to put PMC under color management so that one can achieve the same results on a different printer which would otherwise produce different prints using PMC. It does require understanding color management and having tools to create the necessary profile.  Clearly very few of those people would actually be using PMC. But putting it under color management can be done.
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: eronald on April 21, 2018, 08:17:30 am
While it is certainly reasonable that cheaper printers have a wider spread, it's quite apparent that much of the difference between PMC and AMC is intentional boosting of saturation and brightening the tone curve. It seems pretty obvious this is based on OEM's beliefs about what constitutes a "good" print for the average consumer who is most likely viewing the print at lower light levels and a higher surround than when viewing the image on a display.

This causes unavoidable compatibility issues for someone that, for whatever reason. prefers PMC when upgrading printers.

The purpose of my thread was to point out how to put PMC under color management so that one can achieve the same results on a different printer which would otherwise produce different prints using PMC. It does require understanding color management and having tools to create the necessary profile.  Clearly very few of those people would actually be using PMC. But putting it under color management can be done

Yes. And I think there is a simple way to explain this sort of thing. There are two inputs to a profiling engine, reference and measurement, which some people could call contravariant and covariant.  So to compensate for an effect you feed the profiler the altered (by printing) target measured file, to mimic an effect you instead feed the profile engine the corresponding altered reference file on its other input. Etc.

Edmund
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 21, 2018, 08:18:23 am
Mark
  Dave does not write as to his opinion, nor did I ask.
Sure he does as shown below and no you didn’t ask but those who wanted to know did. And preferable (his words) do not take workflow considerations like soft proofing, RI selection and output specific edits based on them into account! That you didn’t ask while others did is telling. AMC provides better output and more control: period!

I would argue that an all-sRGB Printer Managed Color is preferable for photographers with  Epsons.
As hopefully a PhD can see now, Dave and others don't agree with that 'argument’
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: hokuahi on April 21, 2018, 09:52:01 am
@andrewrodney

Sometimes you are just too funny...  ;D
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: digitaldog on April 21, 2018, 09:56:30 am
@andrewrodney

Sometimes you are just too funny...  ;D
Thank you   ;D   ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINtUCshxY
Title: Re: Putting "Printer Manages Color" under Color Management
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2018, 10:08:05 am
THAT is funny!