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Author Topic: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera  (Read 1794 times)

edvardvoit

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hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« on: January 06, 2018, 08:25:24 PM »

Hi all! decided to give digital another try.
I've been a LF film user for quite a while now,gave digital a try couple of years ago with sinar emotion 75 lv -  went back to film.
Now i got a [email protected] project in mind which will be mainly film but i want to try MF digital back to capture some colour as well,but when i start researching , well.... too many contradictions.
I boiled down my choice to hasselblad H5d/H4D 60 and phase one P65+ IQ60.
I know they all share same sensor but too many praised P1 as an obvious choice for tech camera  and some rubbish talk hassie.
That i can't understand - it is same sensor- why P1 should be better?
i know post production etc... - but does anyone actually use Hd60 back on tech camera (arca swiss) how it takes tilts and shifts?
HB is more appealing to me price  and camera/lens wise
Another question is about long exposure.
Again same sensor but Hd60 has only 32s while P1 has a minute?
I know maybe HB consider the IQ after 32 s unaccaptable, but is there way around it? 1 minute also not enough sometimes but half a minute definitely no good
What the IQ of 60 mpx backs compare to new mirrorless H1dx and fuji? - I don't want to start CCD vs CMOS debate - jsut pure experience.
Thank you in advance for your time!
Edward
oh, must be within budget, so 80 -100mpx out of question.
HB is purely because it's a better camera and can't buy hd60 back on it's own.

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matted

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 08:51:50 PM »

I think one of the biggest reasons people dislike Hassy backs on tech cameras is their lack of an easy way to power them; phase backs just take a battery inside, however Hassy backs require an external power supply of some kind. Nothing to do with performance!
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tcdeveau

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2018, 10:52:00 PM »

As mentioned, Hasselblads require an external power source. There is a battery adapter available from Hasselblad but it is expensive (~$1000 USD) and there are a few other work arounds (FW to DC adapter with external battery pack, for example).

AFAIK the max shutter speed on the Hasselblads is the max and there is no way around it. My experience is limited to H4D-40 (max speed 256 secs), and idk if the limitation comes from the back or the body. If the limitation is on the body, you may be able to make it longer on a tech cam but can’t say for sure.

In general, if you need shutter speeds longer than 32sec to 1 min you may want to consider a different back. H4D/5D-40 does 256 sec, H5D-50 CCD does 2 mins, IQ260 does 1 hour, p45+ does 1 hr, then there are the CMOS backs.....

The GFX and X1D are great (up to 1 hr exposure with no dark frame). If you want tilt and shift, there are no native options and you’ll have to adapt third party T/S lenses (such as a canon) or use a cambo actus. With the X1D, you’re limited to using electronic shutter.
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edvardvoit

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 06:41:50 AM »

Thank You guys,
If there is only issue with a power i can live with external battery, no probs. But i read somewhere hd60 exhibit colour cast when shifted or tilted but then this should do P1 as well as it is basically same chip.
I opted for a maximum res i can budget hence 60mp, but initially i was after 50 ccd, which can do 2min max.
I've been to hassy open day and know the feeling of x1df - very nice , indeed, though the price was out of my reach.now , with some bargains around it maybe the option as files i got from that day looks good.
The only thing which put me a bit off that i don't know if it will adequatly record the nuances / shades of colour - which is why i want to buy MDF in a first place.I am more convinced with CCD sensors to do that kind of work, but i may be wrong.Technology is going quick these days
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Doug Peterson

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2018, 12:32:02 PM »

The color cast produced by the sensor is the same in both cases. However the technical quality of the algorithms used for removing that color cast is not necessarily the same. I've found Capture One has consistently outperformed any other program with it's LCC tool.

The fact that you'll need to do LCC/even-fielding/shading (it's called different things in different programs) means that you'll very likely be using either Phocus or Capture One. LightRoom nominally introduced a tool for this, but I don't think you'll find many people using it. Capture One has a robust and deep toolset that makes it the software of choice for a huge percentage of the high-end market (not just Phase One users, but also Canon, Sony, Nikon, etc). It's image quality for single-shot captures is also the best you'll find; better algorithms/math for extracting the most detail out of the raw file. Notably, while Capture One supports a large range of small format cameras, it does not support files from Hasselblad or other medium format makers; only Phase One files.

The P+ and IQ series are built like tanks and have no moving parts (e.g. no fans). Any camera can fail, but the durability and longevity of Phase One backs is very good. It's hard to find them now, but there was a series of videos where the P+ was frozen in dry ice, baked in an oven alongside a cake, placed under the wheels of a 2 ton truck, dropped from the roof of a car onto concrete (don't try that at home please), and shot out of the air from a high distance while riding a balloon – working perfectly afterward. Tech camera use often includes very cold weather, very hot weather and other extremes.

The ease of onboard battery should not be understated. Using an external battery (which you can also do on a P1) is more than a minor annoyance in many cases.

Every P1 back can also sync at any copal shutter speed without changing any menu option. If you're not buying a P1 make sure to check on the specific back you're purchasing as some backs require you to change an option in the menu to indicate if you're shooting faster or slower than 1/8th of a second, which is especially painful when bracketing.

But I'm biased (we sell Phase One, not Hasselblad), so by all means you should make your own evaluation.

If you're on a budget and long exposure matters to you the P45+ was one of the most popular backs ever for tech cameras users and should be even less than a P65+. Its max exposure time is one hour. It's true it's "only" 40mp, but with Capture One's really great demosaicing algorithms you'll find it holds its own very well.

Of course if you can stretch your budget an IQ260 or IQ150 would both be excellent tech camera backs. It's worth considering if it makes sense to save up for and hold off on your purchase a year or two longer, the combination of increased coins in the piggy bank and decreased price of one of those two backs might make a better choice long term. Both provide an hour long exposure capability and the IQ150 would provide CMOS live view and a retina grade LCD for image review.

Bo_Dez

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2018, 12:38:02 PM »

P65+ is a cracker. I agree it's built like a tank.

BUT - just because they have no moving parts doesn't mean it's infallible. Check the hex key sensor mount regularly - if it's loose the back turns into a wobbly tilt/shift sensor.

I found out this the hard way on a job. Intermittently the pictures had a shifted plain of focus but it would just, at first look, appear really soft and messed up. The shoot was a disaster and we spent the entire day trying to trouble shoot lenses, prisms, bodies etc etc etc.

The friggen hex screws that the sensor is mounted with was loose.

Didn't find out what was wrong until the job was over. Luckily the pictures were salvaged with a week more retouching and comping images but I lost that client  :-[
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 12:43:06 PM by Bo_Dez »
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Joe Towner

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2018, 12:41:35 PM »

Hasselblad hasn't sold the ImageBank in a while, so you're most likely going to have to build something.  There are other threads on here talking about it.  CCD's really really don't like long exposure - shy the P45+/IQ260/380.  Onne thing I would really consider is focus and overall manageability of the back.  The Hass screens on the H6 are great, but the H4/H5 series really suck.  Also consider the Credo 60 as it falls into your price range between the H5 and the IQ.

How are you going to be shooting - in studio or out in the field?  Are you working tethered or trying to work with just the back?  I see you're in the UK, so there are dealers for both available.
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edvardvoit

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2018, 01:15:37 PM »

To Joe - that was i was expecting - haven't seen any good pics with very long exposures on CCD including P45+.Anyway i won't go any lower than 50 mp as there are plenty of deals available, also don't really want to go 80 mpx as it need lens which are quite expensive.
BTW i think there is no much difference in real small pints(up to 16x12") between top FF and entry level MF.all depends on lenses and who is behind the lens.
I think i'll stick to h5d60 or 65+ if not, go for a 50 c cmos on fuji or x1 if it will be in my price range.Didn't like fujinons though since my LF (however must admit i liked gx680 despite it bulk)
I really keen to compare my 30x40" print from 6.5x8.5" neg to 60 mpx back.
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edvardvoit

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2018, 01:20:42 PM »

To Doug - Thank You for your input.I know you sell P1 but anyway some useful info, thanks. I think in two years time 100mpx sensors will be at the price of IQ backs now and a lot of mirrorless options to choose from.
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BobShaw

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2018, 08:28:23 PM »

You can just power the Hasselblad backs with a Firewire cable to an older MBP.
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edvardvoit

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Re: hasselblad hd60 vs phase one p65+ for tech camera
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 04:15:27 AM »

To Bob  - I am PC, but thanks anyway.
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