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Author Topic: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast  (Read 5064 times)

LorenzoD

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i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« on: December 20, 2017, 03:46:13 pm »

With my i1Dispaly I can't adjust the contrast of my monitor even if I choose the option to manually adjust brightness, contrast and RGB.

During the calibration I can only adjust brightness and RGB but not contrast.

Does someone have the same problem?


Mac Pro late 2013
MacOS High Sierra 10.13.2
i1Profiler version 1.7.2
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rdonson

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2017, 09:24:52 pm »

What monitor do you have?
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 04:20:02 pm »

So how does the light the print is viewed under not affect the appearance of the brightest white and the darkest black that determines contrast ratio on a print when now we're having to tweak the contrast of the display?

The contrast appearance of a print can change according to the character of light it's viewed under as in a broadly diffused spot flood vs a narrow spot type light.

What happened to standards that the display should be set to what the image was made to look through edits on a calibrated display? You change the contrast ratio, you change all your images you've edited before the contrast change.

Who needs to get this precise on getting a screen to print match?

What is the real world application in changing the contrast ratio on a display?

It looks like more work than it's worth.
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digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 05:05:44 pm »

Who needs to get this precise on getting a screen to print match?
What is the real world application in changing the contrast ratio on a display?
Do you know how to click on a web link?  ;)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 08:21:13 pm »

Do you know how to click on a web link?  ;)

I read the blog, Andrew. I'm surprised you would even mention contrast ratios of displays since you've said they're just marketing gimmicks to get the unsuspecting to buy the manufacturer's display.

A display may have a contrast ratio of 1000:1 or 800:1? Who the hell can calibrate and edit on that bright of a display? You have a twenty one step black to white stepwedge and with that brightness of white you'll get snow blind before you can be able to make out the difference between 250RGB gray and 255 white.

I'm so glad I don't have to work this hard and yet still get screen to print matches from my local Walmart's Fuji Frontier drylab sending sRGB images.
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digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 08:27:27 pm »

I read the blog, Andrew. I'm surprised you would even mention contrast ratios of displays since you've said they're just marketing gimmicks to get the unsuspecting to buy the manufacturer's display.

A display may have a contrast ratio of 1000:1 or 800:1? Who the hell can calibrate and edit on that bright of a display? You have a twenty one step black to white stepwedge and with that brightness of white you'll get snow blind before you can be able to make out the difference between 250RGB gray and 255 white.

I'm so glad I don't have to work this hard and yet still get screen to print matches from my local Walmart's Fuji Frontier drylab sending sRGB images.
Where did I say that Tim?
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Doug Gray

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 08:31:27 pm »

http://blog.xritephoto.com/2011/07/x-rite-i1display-pro-advanced-features-contrast-ratio-with-coloratti-andrew-rodney/

I'm not a fan of setting the monitor "contrast" to match matte paper's DMax. While, with some limitations, it works with Perceptual and, with BPC enabled, Rel. Col., it fails with straight Rel. Col.

First, most all matte papers don't achieve near a DMax of 2, which corresponds to a contrast ration of 100:1 so setting the monitor to match a matte print requires a lower contrast ratio.

Take this example. A matte paper with deepest blacks at L*=17 (reflectance 2.3%)  has a contrast ratio about 40, assuming a paper white of L*=96 or so. If I set my monitor's black point to 2.5 nits and white point to 100 nits using ColorNavigator, blacks and whites on the monitor look the same as blacks and whites on a print viewer with matching illuminance (around 330 lux). It also has is a good match to a print using Re. Col. with BPC.

However, if you want to show the effects of papers that don't have neutral white points and so select "show paper color" it breaks. The blacks are greatly increased in lightness in all intents ("black ink" is automatically selected). If you measure a black patch, instead of 2.5 nits you get 5 nits. In a sense, its double profiling and "show paper color" is useless. This was due to an error on my part. I had selected the wrong soft proof profile when running this test and it had a particularly bad black point effectively reducing the "contrast ratio" to 22 which made it look like Photoshop had a bug. It does, but not for this.

BTW, to get this to work at all (I'm using a 10 bit monitor CG318) I had to disable graphics acceleration or check the "desaturation colors by" and select 0% in the Color Settings. Otherwise really ugly gradient display. Strange Photoshop bug. This is a really bad bug in Photoshop that forces you to choose between 10 bit mode with bad soft proofing or 8 bit mode with proper soft proofing. It may be a Windows specific Photoshop bug.

My preference is to use the maximum possible contrast ratio and let Photoshop do its magic with view soft proof. Especially if you switch paper types a lot.

OTOH, some prefer to edit on the monitor as close an approximation to what gets printed as possible and that allows it but you lose some soft proof features since setting contrast ratio only deals with the tone curve aspect of soft proofing, not the colors that are outside the printer's gamut.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 05:48:48 pm by Doug Gray »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 08:13:11 am »

I just wish for once in these kind of bleeding edge "gotta get it exact" screen to print match discussions someone would show what the numbers in contrast ratio and luminance represent on a real print next to the actual digital image.

We don't know the size of the print and viewing environment and amount and character of print viewing light. Is it a wall size print? Poster size? How is this print being viewed?

No one knows what the OP is going after and why he/she thinks it's a contrast issue when the printer profile and the color managed image on a calibrated/profiled screen should be creating the match.

You bought and paid for the technology so it's suppose to work without all this added work. And I bet no one viewing the print is going to notice any difference in the slight tweak to contrast ratio in a print.

If I want to see a drastic change in a print, I have to make huge edits to luminance that makes the preview too bright and contrasty just so I can view it hanging on my dimly lit living room wall with no special museum quality lighting.

I doubt the OP is trying to go for that kind of match, but since we don't know, all we can do is spitball it.
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digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2017, 09:24:05 am »

I just wish for once in these kind of bleeding edge "gotta get it exact" screen to print match discussions someone would show what the numbers in contrast ratio and luminance represent on a real print next to the actual digital image.

We don't know the size of the print and viewing environment and amount and character of print viewing light. Is it a wall size print? Poster size? How is this print being viewed?

No one knows what the OP is going after and why he/she thinks it's a contrast issue when the printer profile and the color managed image on a calibrated/profiled screen should be creating the match.

You bought and paid for the technology so it's suppose to work without all this added work. And I bet no one viewing the print is going to notice any difference in the slight tweak to contrast ratio in a print.

If I want to see a drastic change in a print, I have to make huge edits to luminance that makes the preview too bright and contrasty just so I can view it hanging on my dimly lit living room wall with no special museum quality lighting.

I doubt the OP is trying to go for that kind of match, but since we don't know, all we can do is spitball it.
You have done absolutely nothing to aid the OP nor understand his request!
Do you even own i1P? You don’t seem to understand how it operates or WHY.
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digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 09:34:39 am »

I'm not a fan of setting the monitor "contrast" to match matte paper's DMax. While, with some limitations, it works with Perceptual and, with BPC enabled, Rel. Col., it fails with straight Rel. Col.
The feature is about setting the contrast ratio of the display and further, not all AtoB and BtoA tables are created equally and in sync which is why, setting this within the display above and beyond what those tables are supposed to provide in a soft proof is the reason this feature exists.
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digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2017, 10:32:58 am »

I'm surprised you would even mention contrast ratios of displays since you've said they're just marketing gimmicks to get the unsuspecting to buy the manufacturer's display.
Still searching for that text you made up?
In the meantime, this article on contrast ratio of displays, dating back to the Sony Artisan days will likely make your head explode which will be a good excuse for not finding text of mine suggesting let alone stating this feature is a 'marketing gimmick'.
http://digitaldog.net/files/BlackisBack.pdf
And then there's the other question asked of you; do you even own i1Profiler? Yes or no is fine, I don't expect you to understand how to control the contrast ratio of a display to better match a soft proof even with the URL below.  ::)
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Doug Gray

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2017, 03:49:49 pm »

The feature is about setting the contrast ratio of the display
Yes, I1Profiler lets you set the "contrast ratio" and provides a number of ways to enter or get it. You can even have it use a printer profile from which it will calculate a ratio (the matte profiles I've made with I1P produce "contrast ratios" of 22 (9800 using PK on matte - blech) to 48. ColorNavigator doesn't refer to "contrast ratio" but rather requires you enter a luminance level for "black." ColorNavigator will set the monitor's internal LUTs while the I1P uses the video card's LUTs run in it's most basic mode. The "contrast ratio" is then the luminance of white/luminance of black. In my testing both programs produced the same tone response curves (profile TRC 1D tables) when matrix profiles are selected when set to the same "contrast ratio."

Quote
...and further, not all AtoB and BtoA tables are created equally and in sync which is why, setting this within the display above and beyond what those tables are supposed to provide in a soft proof is the reason this feature exists.

True, The 9800 canned profiles are particularly bad. They incorporate BPC in both the AtoB1 and BtoA1 tables, which hoses Photoshop's view proof because a printed black is reported as L*=0 instead of the actual L*=25. When using these Epson 9800 canned printer profiles setting the "contrast ratio" is the only way to get a proper rendering of how images will be printed.

Unfortunately, what fixes broken Epson profiles, breaks correctly generated profiles.
Ignore this. I made an error in selecting the wrong profile. Original post corrected.


I only print with correctly made custom profiles and for those setting the monitor for the lowest min luminance in either I1P or ColorNavigator produces the fewest soft proof anomalies. Also, minimum black luminance, or highest "contrast ratio" as I1P describes it, is the specifically recommended option in ColorNavigator.  I depend on soft proofing and really don't like the print->tweek->print cycles I did a long time ago.

Interestingly, I1P does not show the canned Epson or Canon profiles when setting "contrast ratio." No idea why.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 05:52:12 pm by Doug Gray »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2017, 09:10:04 pm »

Still searching for that text you made up?

Still looking for real world proof this level of precision/contrast manipulation is necessary over what a calibrated display and custom printer profile provides to get a match and a decent print for exhibition under a known set of print viewing light conditions.

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digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler problem - Can't adjust contrast
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2017, 09:22:51 pm »

Still looking for real world proof this level of precision/contrast manipulation is necessary over what a calibrated display and custom printer profile provides to get a match and a decent print for exhibition under a known set of print viewing light conditions.
Searching for both. Own i1Profiler?
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