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Author Topic: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image  (Read 2410 times)

saiguy

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LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« on: December 18, 2017, 07:38:20 pm »

I just printed some photos, raw ProPhoto. It is unique in that it is of 50 Hindu Swamis with their orange, yellow, and some red caps and scarfs, clothing. It is on a stage with colorful stage lighting. The extensive curtains are deep maroon. I soft proofed to Exhibition Fiber and Luster. The slightest contrast, saturation, black point increases showed much of the photo was way OOG.

Then I thought the color management is supposed to fix all that. I used perceptual since so many similar shades.

I am happy with the prints on both papers. This may not be best practice, but in this case seemed to be the best route.

Printed on EP 3880. Sorry I can not share the photo here.
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digitaldog

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 08:00:43 pm »

Nope. OOG colors are a fact of life and while ProPhoto RGB has a massively large color gamut (some 'imaginary colors'), there are still colors it may contain that cannot be printed and vise versa.
NO printer can output all of sRGB! A much smaller gamut color space. The shapes of working spaces and output spaces are vastly different too so it's often the case of trying to fit round holes in square pegs. This might clear up some of your questions.


Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut
A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.
High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov
Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q
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saiguy

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 08:46:35 pm »

Digitaldog, 

I have watched your video several times and it is great. My case is that when soft proofing this image there was nothing I could do that would not immediately show massive OOG. It is not a landscape image. If I respected the OOG warnings, there would have been no soft proof tweaks. The image would have been quite flat. It is in that scenario that I soft proofed by eye, with simulate paper&ink, and completely disregarded OOG warnings.

The prints look great, not flat. Wish I could share the shot but I can not. It shows me in this extreme scenario, the software rendered a great job of rendering way OOG to produce a nice print.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 08:59:08 pm »



Then I thought the color management is supposed to fix all that. I used perceptual since so many similar shades.

I am happy with the prints on both papers. This may not be best practice, but in this case seemed to be the best route.



Just to amplify a bit on what I think Andrew means here, colours that are OOG aren't "fixed" by colour management - if by "fixing" you mean the gamut changes to accommodate them. The gamut doesn't change by virtue of how you manage OOG colours. The gamut is fixed by the paper/printer/profile you are using. Rendering Intent determines how in gamut colours and OOG colours are handled in relation to each other. Perceptual Intent compresses OOG colours into gamut by compressing the source colours into the destination space by desaturation, while Relative Intent clips the OOG colours to the nearest values on gamut boundary. There is shifting of in-gamut colours using Perceptual Intent and very little such shifting with Relative Intent. So, no free lunch. There isn't a hard and fast rule about which Rendering Intent to use - the "best practice" is to use the Rendering Intent that you think suits the photo best - it's a matter of personal judgment.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2017, 09:00:24 pm »

Digitaldog, 

I have watched your video several times and it is great. My case is that when soft proofing this image there was nothing I could do that would not immediately show massive OOG. It is not a landscape image. If I respected the OOG warnings, there would have been no soft proof tweaks. The image would have been quite flat. It is in that scenario that I soft proofed by eye, with simulate paper&ink, and completely disregarded OOG warnings.

The prints look great, not flat. Wish I could share the shot but I can not. It shows me in this extreme scenario, the software rendered a great job of rendering way OOG to produce a nice print.

Yup - that makes a lot of sense - ignore all those warnings in this situation and trust your eyeballs - provided your monitor is properly calibrated and profiled.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Majohnson

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 02:27:54 am »

The issue I have with the gamut warning is that it does not show you the degree the colour is out of gamut. I have to use ColorThink Pro for this. I only do this if I want to be as accurate as possible. Other times I just follow my own judgement. You get to know which colours can cause issues.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 07:33:55 am by Majohnson »
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digitaldog

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2017, 10:33:54 am »

The OOG overlay isn't very useful IMHO: kind of buggy. Shows 1% and 100% OOG (percentages as an example only) as one ugly overlay.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2017, 10:52:51 am »

The OOG overlay isn't very useful IMHO: kind of buggy. Shows 1% and 100% OOG (percentages as an example only) as one ugly overlay.

Yes, but not only that - I think there are two effects of interest with "saturation clipping" - one is the loss or alteration of colours, the other being the loss of image detail that saturation clipping can cause. This latter effect is imperceptible both with Photoshop's Gamut warning and with ColorThink Pro's really nifty overlays using colour worksheets - in which case we can see what pixels fall out of the gamut boundary, but that doesn't show us anything about loss of detail. For that one just needs to soft-proof with alternative Rendering Intents and see what they do to the vulnerable areas that those tools identify. This is very convenient to do in Lightroom using the Softproof option in the Develop module which allows one to easily click and view Relative or Perceptual. Sad to say, but often enough, the most reliable test of what happens to detail is what emerges on paper!
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2017, 11:04:31 am »

At best I think the OOG overlay is sort of like a sign that says "Warning! I think you just might be getting a bit too close to the edge."
Andrew's and Mark's comments are very much to the point.
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Redcrown

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2017, 11:50:14 am »

Instead of softproof, try this:

1. Dupe your original image.
2. Convert the dupe to the colorspace and rendering intent of interest.
3. Copy the dupe and paste as new layer in the original, discard the dupe.
4. Put that layer in Difference mode.
5. Analyze the difference.

In most cases you see a black image because there is so little difference. So maybe add a Threshold layer, move the slider to the far left and then nudge it to the right 1 value at a time to get a better visual of the difference. Also, display the histogram and look at the StdDev value.

This is not 100% accurate, but pretty close. When you copy the dupe and paste to original another colorspace conversion occurs. Most likely from a small gamut to a much larger one, but still a conversion, whose math may give a difference. Example: Converting an sRGB image to ProPhoto and then back to sRGB will show a small difference compared to the original sRGB.
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digitaldog

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 12:22:47 pm »

Instead of softproof, try this:

1. Dupe your original image.
2. Convert the dupe to the colorspace and rendering intent of interest.
3. Copy the dupe and paste as new layer in the original, discard the dupe.
4. Put that layer in Difference mode.
5. Analyze the difference.
Or use Apply Image command outlined below, after which, you can get a new document of the 'differences' and depending on how little they differ, you can adjust to see this easier:
http://digitaldog.net/files/Apply_Image.pdf
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Miles

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Re: LR soft proof, OOG ignored on a unique image
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 10:18:43 am »

Thanks for providing an easy work flow to check OOG colors, guys.  Most appreciated.
Miles
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