Canon PRO-4000 using photo black with Canson Rag Photographic

[lauripie]

I have been trying out Canson Rag Photograpic (top row) and Canon Fine Art Smooth (bottom row) with Canon PRO-4000.

I have printed out the same image using both papers (note: different sizes) and am perplexed by the fact that Canson Rag uses so much Photo Black
(0.423) and even chroma optimizer (0.014).  I was under the impression that these inks were used only in non-matte papers??

Even Canon FA Smooth uses some PB-ink but only 1/100 of the amount of  MB.

There is a visible difference in max blackness, Canons FAS being much darker.

I am using the standard vendor provided profiles for both papers.  Would a custom profile help? 

Printer Name   Paper Consumed [square meter]   Ink Consumption Details(Matte Black)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Black)   Ink Consumption Details(Gray)   Ink Consumption Details(Cyan)   Ink Consumption Details(Magenta)   Ink Consumption Details(Yellow)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Cyan)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Magenta)   Ink Consumption Details(Red)   Ink Consumption Details(Chroma Optimizer)   Ink Consumption Details(Blue)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Gray)
PRO-4000   0.063   0.787   0.423   0.032   0.017   0.020   0.061   0.014   0.018   0.042   0.014   0.016   0.016
PRO-4000   0.294   4.240   0.040   0.093   0.045   0.059   0.219   0.038   0.051   0.137   0.036   0.042   0.046

[Mark D Segal]

Yes, I had noted in my review of Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth that it is particularly good for black shading appearance.

What aspects of the prints do you think may be amenable to improvement with a custom profile? Not seeing your prints and your workflow it is not possible to answer this question remotely.

[Panagiotis]

I have been trying out Canson Rag Photograpic (top row) and Canon Fine Art Smooth (bottom row) with Canon PRO-4000.

I have printed out the same image using both papers (note: different sizes) and am perplexed by the fact that Canson Rag uses so much Photo Black
(0.423) and even chroma optimizer (0.014).  I was under the impression that these inks were used only in non-matte papers??

Even Canon FA Smooth uses some PB-ink but only 1/100 of the amount of  MB.

There is a visible difference in max blackness, Canons FAS being much darker.

I am using the standard vendor provided profiles for both papers.  Would a custom profile help? 

Printer Name   Paper Consumed [square meter]   Ink Consumption Details(Matte Black)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Black)   Ink Consumption Details(Gray)   Ink Consumption Details(Cyan)   Ink Consumption Details(Magenta)   Ink Consumption Details(Yellow)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Cyan)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Magenta)   Ink Consumption Details(Red)   Ink Consumption Details(Chroma Optimizer)   Ink Consumption Details(Blue)   Ink Consumption Details(Photo Gray)
PRO-4000   0.063   0.787   0.423   0.032   0.017   0.020   0.061   0.014   0.018   0.042   0.014   0.016   0.016
PRO-4000   0.294   4.240   0.040   0.093   0.045   0.059   0.219   0.038   0.051   0.137   0.036   0.042   0.046

Which media setting did you use for each paper? Also I wonder If you print again but with the printer BW mode and not with the icc profile if there will be the same difference.

[lauripie]

Yes, I had noted in my review of Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth that it is particularly good for black shading appearance.

What aspects of the prints do you think may be amenable to improvement with a custom profile? Not seeing your prints and your workflow it is not possible to answer this question remotely.

I printed the same picture on Canson Rag using the profile of Canons FAS and the result was much better.  There is a strange quality in the dark areas when using Canson Rag's own profile.  This improved remarkedly using the FAS-profile. 

Why does the Canson Rag profile use Photo Black at all?  I find it very perplexing.  In my case it is 1/3 of the black ink.

Are there others here that have printed on Canson Rag Photographic with Canon 4000/2000 and are satisfied with the results?

[lauripie]

Which media setting did you use for each paper? Also I wonder If you print again but with the printer BW mode and not with the icc profile if there will be the same difference.

I am printing with Miracle and Miracle actually queries the printer for a list of profiles.  So all aspects of the printing are saved in the profile ( an AM1X-file, actually, which contains the ICC-profile whithin ).  I don't know if there is any way for me to intervene. 

[henrikolsen]

Since I was already working the the MCT for the Pro-1000 (could likely be same media types as for the Pro-4000 I assume), I checked the settings for Highest Density Fine Art Paper (recommended by Canson for Rag Photographique) and the specific media type for Fine Art Smooth (needs to be updated/installed manually through MCT as I recall, not present from start). They are both set to only MBK and largest ink usage, so no difference there to explain what you notice regarding ink usage (especially PBK usage).

Don't know what media types you have used. Some are set to be a combination of MBK and PBK, for example Heavy Art Paper (aka Heavyweight Fine Art Paper).  Could that, or perhaps Ex Hvy Art Paper) have been used, and thereby explain usage of PBK for the Rag?

Regarding the perceived blackness I'm sure there is plenty more to this than actual ink levels used, and even what the spectro tells us. As Mark indicated the FA Smooth seems to simply be more deep black looking, despite what normal spectro measurements and ink levels would suggest. Interesting.

[Doug Gray]

Since I was already working the the MCT for the Pro-1000 (could likely be same media types as for the Pro-4000 I assume), I checked the settings for Highest Density Fine Art Paper (recommended by Canson for Rag Photographique) and the specific media type for Fine Art Smooth (needs to be updated/installed manually through MCT as I recall, not present from start). They are both set to only MBK and largest ink usage, so no difference there to explain what you notice regarding ink usage (especially PBK usage).

Don't know what media types you have used. Some are set to be a combination of MBK and PBK, for example Heavy Art Paper (aka Heavyweight Fine Art Paper).  Could that, or perhaps Ex Hvy Art Paper) have been used, and thereby explain usage of PBK for the Rag?

Regarding the perceived blackness I'm sure there is plenty more to this than actual ink levels used, and even what the spectro tells us. As Mark indicated the FA Smooth seems to simply be more deep black looking, despite what normal spectro measurements and ink levels would suggest. Interesting.

Canson Rag Photographique is my favorite matte. Zero OBAs, and outstanding lack of any specular effects. The latter makes it look darker than one might expect from a spectro reading. Surface reflections are difficult to eliminate in glossy, luster, or semi-matte papers and they have the effect of reducing the DMax. The Canson paper is so good that a colorchecker (which, while matte, has some specular reflection) looks pretty bad when light reflects off an angle.

[lauripie]

Since I was already working the the MCT for the Pro-1000 (could likely be same media types as for the Pro-4000 I assume), I checked the settings for Highest Density Fine Art Paper (recommended by Canson for Rag Photographique) and the specific media type for Fine Art Smooth (needs to be updated/installed manually through MCT as I recall, not present from start). They are both set to only MBK and largest ink usage, so no difference there to explain what you notice regarding ink usage (especially PBK usage).

Don't know what media types you have used. Some are set to be a combination of MBK and PBK, for example Heavy Art Paper (aka Heavyweight Fine Art Paper).  Could that, or perhaps Ex Hvy Art Paper) have been used, and thereby explain usage of PBK for the Rag?

Regarding the perceived blackness I'm sure there is plenty more to this than actual ink levels used, and even what the spectro tells us. As Mark indicated the FA Smooth seems to simply be more deep black looking, despite what normal spectro measurements and ink levels would suggest. Interesting.

Thanks for your answer!  It might indeed be a question of media type.  I am a bit perplexed, since I am using the very profiles provided by Canson on their web site (or the am1x-files, to be precise) and which I installed on the 4000 using MCT. 

Mirage, which I use for printing, fetches the media information directly from the printer so all information is directly obtained from the Canson am1x-file (which includes the ICC profile).

See attachments for the info for Rag, Highest Density Fine Art and instructions for installing am1x-files on printer.

The only conclusion can be that Canson has wrong information in the am1x-file and it has to be manually corrected using Canon's MCT (e.g. black ink).  Am I the first to print on Rag Photographic using PRO4000 and Mirage and bump into this??

[Panagiotis]

I believe that you have to manually add the icc profile to the system. Just passing the amx1 media settings to the printer doesn't add automatically the profile to the system. Also your screenshot clearly shows that the media setting that you use for rag photographique 210 uses both Matte and Photo black inks. I don't know why this is recommended by Canson. For the same paper on the PRO-1000 the recommended media setting is "Highest Density Fine Art Paper" like the one you use for the Canon FAS paper which uses only Matte black ink. Also for PRO-1000 there is a dedicated media setting for FAS called "Fine Art Smooth". Isn't it the same for the PRO-4000? Why you use "Highest Density Fine Art Paper" instead?

[lauripie]

I believe that you have to manually add the icc profile to the system. Just passing the amx1 media settings to the printer doesn't add automatically the profile to the system. Also your screenshot clearly shows that the media setting that you use for rag photographique 210 uses both Matte and Photo black inks. I don't know why this is recommended by Canson. For the same paper on the PRO-1000 the recommended media setting is "Highest Density Fine Art Paper" like the one you use for the Canon FAS paper which uses only Matte black ink. Also for PRO-1000 there is a dedicated media setting for FAS called "Fine Art Smooth". Isn't it the same for the PRO-4000? Why you use "Highest Density Fine Art Paper" instead?

Thanks again for answering.

When printing in Lightroom (for instance) the ICC-profile and media settings are indeed given separately, but in Mirage that is not possible.  The upside is that you only choose your paper once and don't run the risk of mixing two incompatible settings.  The problem here is that Canson, for some strange reason, has decided to add photo black to the media settings which gives terrible results, in my opinion.

MCT gives the possibility to create a new media setting package (am1x) from scratch, but I did not manage to get it to work.

And yes, I did use the Fine Art Smooth choice for FAS-paper, see attachment.

[Panagiotis]

If you make a new custom media type for the Pag210 then the profile provided by Canson will be invalidated and you will have to build a new one. Try Rag310, or RagDuo220 settings (amx1) instead of Rag210. Is it the same media type?