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greyscale

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Black and White in camera ?
« on: December 03, 2017, 01:00:43 PM »

Is black and white in videos done in camera or in post?
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Chrissand

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 01:34:44 PM »

Post - normally.
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greyscale

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 11:01:22 AM »

Thank You, Chris.
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John Brawley

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2017, 07:44:42 AM »

Is black and white in videos done in camera or in post?

There's only one that can truly shoot B&W that I know of, the RED EPIC Monochrome. Much like the monochrome Leica, they basically pulled the BAYER filter off their sensor.

One of the first clips I recall seeing with this was this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUsVbTj2AY

And you can buy them here http://www.bandpro.com/red-epic-dragon-monochrome.html though I thought they were a rental only camera from RED.

JB
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bcooter

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2018, 02:27:36 PM »

There's only one that can truly shoot B&W that I know of, the RED EPIC Monochrome. Much like the monochrome Leica, they basically pulled the BAYER filter off their sensor.

One of the first clips I recall seeing with this was this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUsVbTj2AY

And you can buy them here http://www.bandpro.com/red-epic-dragon-monochrome.html though I thought they were a rental only camera from RED.

JB

I wouldn't buy one but would rent.    Last year we had a client that wanted a series of black and white commercials, so I suggested a (the RED) black and white camera, for all the reasons we know.

They we're fine with it until the last week of pre pro when they said, "you can also do this in colour  . . . right?   I said no it's a black and white camera, so that went out the window.

Since I've never used that camera, I know in resolve you can produce excellent black and white, so I just dropped the thought and used my REDs.

Sure enough they wanted both black and white and colour in all of the "videos".

Anyway, they got what they wanted and it all worked out.

IMO

BC

UlfKrentz

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 10:14:34 AM »

If you don´t really need color and can make it fit into your workflow make sure to check the RED Monochrome. We shot a Dragon Monochrome, I was wondering if it would make any sense to use it instead of the standard (color) Dragon, I´m so glad we made the choice:



Cheers!

fredjeang2

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 05:12:11 AM »

If you don´t really need color and can make it fit into your workflow make sure to check the RED Monochrome. We shot a Dragon Monochrome, I was wondering if it would make any sense to use it instead of the standard (color) Dragon, I´m so glad we made the choice:



Cheers!
Very nice!
Did you use the REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10? On this.
Or the traditiinal Cineon + a Redgamma 2,3,4?
I'd like to have imputs from users on the RWG with the new log curve.

But then, (in agreement with Coot on the irrevesibility) considering that
There is nothing that can not be acheived in post with the right tools
And skills.
In that sense, what is the real advantage of a specialized camera?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 07:57:35 AM by fredjeang2 »
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 08:10:54 AM »


But then, (in agreement with Coot on the irrevesibility) considering that
There is nothing that can not be acheived in post with the right tools
And skills.
In that sense, what is the real advantage of a specialized camera?

Fred,
Thanks, glad you like it! The Monochrome does not have any bayer filters in front of the sensor, so the resulting image is much, much cleaner. In addition it has a longer reach into spectral sensitivity on both ends. That said, in case you want to alter the color to grayscale conversion you have to do it in camera (via lens filtration, like it used to be with b/w film). We pulled stills from these clips you probably won´t believe it´s from a video camera. While the captured image is in RGB format (which is strange enough due to size) all channels contain the same information, there was no need for any "color" tweaks, I usually use Redgamma 2 as I feel it has the nicest and most organic overall feel. BTW, we also needed few color shots in there that have been converted in post and I had a hard time to get them kinda matched (still feel they suck if directly compared) Cheers!

fredjeang2

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 08:55:19 AM »

Fred,
Thanks, glad you like it! The Monochrome does not have any bayer filters in front of the sensor, so the resulting image is much, much cleaner. In addition it has a longer reach into spectral sensitivity on both ends. That said, in case you want to alter the color to grayscale conversion you have to do it in camera (via lens filtration, like it used to be with b/w film). We pulled stills from these clips you probably won´t believe it´s from a video camera. While the captured image is in RGB format (which is strange enough due to size) all channels contain the same information, there was no need for any "color" tweaks, I usually use Redgamma 2 as I feel it has the nicest and most organic overall feel. BTW, we also needed few color shots in there that have been converted in post and I had a hard time to get them kinda matched (still feel they suck if directly compared) Cheers!
Thanks Ulf.
Agree on Redgamma2. My fav as well.
About B&W in post, don't know if you tried it but you can work in LAB mode in Resolve. (right click on nodes/color space/LAB). That allows you to sort of emulate a PS workflow. Combined with the layer mixer's blending modes and qualify just the Lum, you can get quite fast photographic results. If you never tried it is worth a look.
In LAB, the RGB curves are: Y=none, R=becomes your L, G=becomes the A and B=becomes the B of the LAB channels.
(If I have time this week I'll do a demo with Red sample and give the link because it's fun)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 08:59:18 AM by fredjeang2 »
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bcooter

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 10:42:48 AM »

Fred,
Thanks, glad you like it! The Monochrome does not have any bayer filters in front of the sensor, so the resulting image is much, much cleaner. In addition it has a longer reach into spectral sensitivity on both ends. That said, in case you want to alter the color to grayscale conversion you have to do it in camera (via lens filtration, like it used to be with b/w film). We pulled stills from these clips you probably won´t believe it´s from a video camera. While the captured image is in RGB format (which is strange enough due to size) all channels contain the same information, there was no need for any "color" tweaks, I usually use Redgamma 2 as I feel it has the nicest and most organic overall feel. BTW, we also needed few color shots in there that have been converted in post and I had a hard time to get them kinda matched (still feel they suck if directly compared) Cheers!

Very nice Ulf, nice production, direction and a very good edit.

I'd love to shoot black and white with the dragon, but the moment someone mentioned, can we get color out later I just dropped the idea, because it's going to bite me.

The final outcome of our black and white shoot was two spots we're black and white, two were in color (different edits).

In shooting planned black and white, what most don't understand it's not just the camera or the processing, it's how we prop, do makeup, light for tone, etc. etc.




fredjeang2

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 11:45:34 AM »

In shooting planned black and white, what most don't understand it's not just the camera or the processing, it's how we prop, do makeup, light for tone, etc. etc.
Well James, you hit the nail on the key point: MUA, Lightning etc... for the final look. In short, pre and prod so that the PP is just a sweet extention instead of being fixing sins. This is by far the most complicated and the people who have those skills are not legions. I guess, that in itself justifies the zeros on the bill.
A few weeks ago I had a funny conversation in Whatsapp (I hate whatsapp) with a big name of the fashion photography (he shooted many Hollywood stars and the best top models) and we were talking just about that. What made me laugh is that he calls the retouchers, "the MAC dudes", with a clear contemptuousness, pointing that as he gets older, the assistants are less and less skilled in the prod area because everybody thinks that "the MAC dudes" cure all crap, and ironicaly it does occur very often. But then, also in "the MAC dudes" terrain, the ones who have the skills to fix things for the high-end are not legions either and have a lot of zeros on their bills too. The MAC dudes is a good way to explain the situation. 
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bcooter

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 12:11:31 PM »

Well James, you hit the nail on the key point: MUA, Lightning etc... for the final look. In short, pre and prod so that the PP is just a sweet extention instead of being fixing sins. This is by far the most complicated and the people who have those skills are not legions. I guess, that in itself justifies the zeros on the bill.
A few weeks ago I had a funny conversation in Whatsapp (I hate whatsapp) with a big name of the fashion photography (he shooted many Hollywood stars and the best top models) and we were talking just about that. What made me laugh is that he calls the retouchers, "the MAC dudes", with a clear contemptuousness, pointing that as he gets older, the assistants are less and less skilled in the prod area because everybody thinks that "the MAC dudes" cure all crap, and ironicaly it does occur very often. But then, also in "the MAC dudes" terrain, the ones who have the skills to fix things for the high-end are not legions either and have a lot of zeros on their bills too. The MAC dudes is a good way to explain the situation.


Fred, your right.

I find that everyone we now shoot for has either grown up or become very use to the post production era, especially in stills.   I don’t think a scene doesn’t go by where someone says “you can fix that in post . . . right?”

They believe and are right that anything can be done in post, but it has to be done by a very good team and it takes time.

Now that clients want motion, many times from the same project they think motion post is as simple as stills and will refer to some movie that looks organic but in reality has some green screen or matted portion in every scene.

What they don’t do is look at the credits and see the 300 post production artists, spread across three effects companies and 2 years of work. 

We shot a video targeted for China where the scene was a family pulls up in a vehicle and gets out, goes into an airport.   We took great pains in selecting a vehicle popular in China, changed the license plates, removed the vehicles logos except for one that could not be removed.

Their legal dept wanted the logos removed and same with any naming.    I called my effects guy who is quite reasonable but they choked on the price, so I made stills of the areas, retouched them in PS, then tracked them.   It took three long days, so there wasn’t any savings.

It’a interesting that when I go through the work I’m most proud of it was 99% organic with little post work, but today that’s very rare. 

But yes, it's the mac dudes which is ok as long as I'm not the mac dude.

IMO

BC

fredjeang2

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 06:38:56 PM »


Fred, your right.

I find that everyone we now shoot for has either grown up or become very use to the post production era, especially in stills.   I don’t think a scene doesn’t go by where someone says “you can fix that in post . . . right?”

They believe and are right that anything can be done in post, but it has to be done by a very good team and it takes time.

Now that clients want motion, many times from the same project they think motion post is as simple as stills and will refer to some movie that looks organic but in reality has some green screen or matted portion in every scene.

What they don’t do is look at the credits and see the 300 post production artists, spread across three effects companies and 2 years of work. 

We shot a video targeted for China where the scene was a family pulls up in a vehicle and gets out, goes into an airport.   We took great pains in selecting a vehicle popular in China, changed the license plates, removed the vehicles logos except for one that could not be removed.

Their legal dept wanted the logos removed and same with any naming.    I called my effects guy who is quite reasonable but they choked on the price, so I made stills of the areas, retouched them in PS, then tracked them.   It took three long days, so there wasn’t any savings.

It’a interesting that when I go through the work I’m most proud of it was 99% organic with little post work, but today that’s very rare. 

But yes, it's the mac dudes which is ok as long as I'm not the mac dude.

IMO

BC
it's been some time since I didn't dig in your site
And the "new" version is really good. Very well optimized on cell phone
And the motion showcase is very agile, no bad streaming, easy to review.
Fast, efficient and professional.
Well done indeed!
Some really really good color work too.
No teal-and-orange cliché. Great imagery. Bravo.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 05:15:32 AM by fredjeang2 »
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bcooter

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2018, 06:54:40 AM »

it's been some time since I didn't dig in your site
And the "new" version is really good. Very well optimized on cell phone
And the motion showcase is very agile, no bad streaming, easy to review.
Fast, efficient and professional.
Well done indeed!
Some really really good color work too.
No teal-and-orange cliché. Great imagery. Bravo.

Thank you Fred, as you know showing your work in a vehicle is never finished and can consume all of your spare time.

Maybe soon we will finish it.

Thanks

BC

fredjeang2

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Re: Black and White in camera ?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2018, 08:45:12 PM »

Fred,
Thanks, glad you like it! The Monochrome does not have any bayer filters in front of the sensor, so the resulting image is much, much cleaner. In addition it has a longer reach into spectral sensitivity on both ends. That said, in case you want to alter the color to grayscale conversion you have to do it in camera (via lens filtration, like it used to be with b/w film). We pulled stills from these clips you probably won´t believe it´s from a video camera. While the captured image is in RGB format (which is strange enough due to size) all channels contain the same information, there was no need for any "color" tweaks, I usually use Redgamma 2 as I feel it has the nicest and most organic overall feel. BTW, we also needed few color shots in there that have been converted in post and I had a hard time to get them kinda matched (still feel they suck if directly compared) Cheers!
Wao Ulf: The geckos are amazing!! I absolutly love them.
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