Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9   Go Down

Author Topic: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?  (Read 25711 times)

hubell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1057
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #120 on: March 20, 2018, 01:14:54 pm »

Hey, I'm learning new english jargon.
In french we would say "la rue" (means the street)
It:s the GFX or the street
But the highway in french would have been used in the sense of easy/no brainer.
If I had wrote that in english with my french mind you would have
Understood exactly the opposite.

Ha, you are 100% right. This is very much an American colloquialism.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_way_or_the_highway

fredjeang2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1376
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #121 on: March 20, 2018, 01:38:47 pm »

Ha, you are 100% right. This is very much an American colloquialism.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_way_or_the_highway
https://youtu.be/_hBJ97obRJU

I will adopt that with some dudes! ;D
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11296
    • Echophoto
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #122 on: March 20, 2018, 01:45:09 pm »

Hi Howard,

I am aware of that, there are some who cannot see that different solutions can make sense. I would think both cameras can make great images. But, the feature sets are different. Hasselblad is compact and has a leaf shutter, which many Hasselblad users consider to be important while the Fuji GFX is quite a bit larger and has a focal plane shutter. The GFX can use HSS, allowing flash sync at high speed and the X1D has an electronic shutter, albeit at low speed. Both are workarounds. Both ES and HSS have limitations but work well within those limitation.

Best regards
Erik

You would think your ultimate conclusion would be obvious. However, for reasons that are not readily apparent and about which we can only surmise, there are many here and at other websites who are unwilling to agree to that.  All you have to do is look at the so-called Medium Format Talk forum at DP Review where owners/potential owners of the X1D and the X1D itself are regularly ridiculed. It's the GFX or the Highway.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 561
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #123 on: March 20, 2018, 03:14:37 pm »

i just got the fuji XH1 mostly for video and it has a really interesting feature: the movie silent operation mode....really reminds me of the X1D touch screen interface for changing settings.....there are lots of obvious differences, the fuji"s menu is tiny and an overlay over the recording image, since it is meant to be used for changing settings while recording and not having to actually rotate dials and moving the camera in any way but it shows what can be done and how easy it is to add things like that once you have a touch screen and it is great to have the option to have both and use one or the other when you need it....also makes me appreciate actual physical dials for certain settings....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

fredjeang2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1376
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #124 on: March 20, 2018, 04:39:27 pm »

i just got the fuji XH1 mostly for video and it has a really interesting feature: the movie silent operation mode....really reminds me of the X1D touch screen interface for changing settings.....there are lots of obvious differences, the fuji"s menu is tiny and an overlay over the recording image, since it is meant to be used for changing settings while recording and not having to actually rotate dials and moving the camera in any way but it shows what can be done and how easy it is to add things like that once you have a touch screen and it is great to have the option to have both and use one or the other when you need it....also makes me appreciate actual physical dials for certain settings....
But that would be practicaly useful only if it worked on an external monitor and not on the camera itself.
The fact that the menu is tiny is also a real problem in practice.
I think you gona like/use more the F-log in camera and maybe the Eterna.
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 561
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #125 on: March 20, 2018, 06:47:12 pm »

But that would be practicaly useful only if it worked on an external monitor and not on the camera itself.
The fact that the menu is tiny is also a real problem in practice.
I think you gona like/use more the F-log in camera and maybe the Eterna.
it actually works ok...i rarely have to change settings during shooting a clip....
eterna is one of the reasons i got the XH1, IBIS the other....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4679
    • Photos
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2018, 09:11:02 pm »

it actually works ok...i rarely have to change settings during shooting a clip....
eterna is one of the reasons i got the XH1, IBIS the other....

How does it compare to ProNeg standard?

fredjeang2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1376
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #127 on: March 21, 2018, 03:47:48 am »

it actually works ok...i rarely have to change settings during shooting a clip....
eterna is one of the reasons i got the XH1, IBIS the other....
Fuji has a good color science when it comes to film emulation and the Eterna should work fine to get a nice footage with little need to post-produce later.
I would probably choose Eterna over F-log most of the time if I shooted with in order to avoid a log workflow, depending on the situation but having it is certainly a plus. Ibis is another one.
I like very much this body design. Much better than the XT2 and it seems solid and very well built. I almost buy one just for that but then I stepped back cause I really didn't need it, (then entering a all new system) but it's a very nice camera indeed.
Before you were talking about the F3 and it really reminds me the good old f3.
It seems competent enough for video.

The fact that the silent mode works well in operation puzzles me because as you point, we hardly have to change settings during recording and if it's nice not to have to use dials, touching a screen produces vibration anayway. That would make sense if those could be operated from an external device not physically connected such as a smartphone so an assistant can control the camera while the cameraman focusses on the handling and framing.
Maybe I don't fully understand the practical side of this silent mode because it would avoid clics on a mike but not vibration. Vibration can be stabilized in post easy though but is an extra pain.
I guess I don't get yet what Fuji was trying to acheive.

There are 2 aspects I like less which are the200Mb/s in 4k stands on the lower limit. Then the hdmi output that I know is not fully uncompressed but 8bits 4.2.2 maybe? One thing I ignore is if it does All-intra or not.
But surely a very very nice overall package. At least it looks chic. It does not have leather snake (I know you love leather and diammonds on cameras ::)) but it has the retro look and it's a camera one wants to grab and shoot with. I think the size is just right, not too small like an A6500 and not as big as a D5. (Although then with grip and all the external cableries, cages, wooden handle with jade incrustations of course and so on, we have a Red...)

The ad of a grip, according to the shape of the camera seems that the balance is not right and won't surprise me if it remained uncomfortable after a while but I suspect that the camera will have a tendency to rotate in the front but I'm just guessing here cause I don't have one. Anyway, Fuji seems to join the video train with interest, which is nice. Imo.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 06:06:47 am by fredjeang2 »
Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #128 on: March 21, 2018, 09:33:15 am »

Hi,

Try to use live view for accurate focusing on the M9, and you see that CMOS or CCD matters. This is just an example of enabling technology.

Regarding DR, it depends a bit on... things. I would agree that life on earth is possible without 13EV DR. As a matter of fact, I was shooting digitally since 2006 and seldom run into DR issues, and when so resolved to HDR.

The area where CMOS benefits is essentially readout noise in the darks. A modern CMOS sensor uses like 6000 analogue digital converters in parallell, while CCD passes the data trough say two ADCs that are not even on the same chip. So, for dark noise CMOS is a winner.

Weather CMOS or CCD, sensors reflect a lot of light while film was dark and was a diffuse reflector. So, film era lenses did not need to take reflection from film into account. With digital, that has changed.
Luminance range at the sensor is often limited by veiling flare in the lens.

So needs do vary. If a camera has new capabilities that we don't need there is little reason to upgrade.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, that is my point. If you don't need the new features then you don't need to upgrade. New features rarely have any baring on my photography at all.

I don't need or use live view on an M camera. It's there on my M10 and I don't use it. I don't even have much use for live view in general when shooting MFD either. Others I'm sure have uses for it.

An M9 has plenty of DR. As you've pointed out it has a tonne more than the digital cameras, especially the ones I started using in 1996! It has more than transparency film which is what I spent my time shooting before that. The M9 has enough to make it look like colour neg too. I have more in my Phase One it's certainly useful. But if you expose correctly, more is always useful but to me it is not necessary.

Buying an X1D is the sort of upgrade I see as valid for the first time in many years. It combines the IQ of Medium Format and the portability of the M. The DR and high ISO is just a bonus for me.
Logged

fredjeang2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1376
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #129 on: March 21, 2018, 10:06:39 am »

Yes, that is my point. If you don't need the new features then you don't need to upgrade. New features rarely have any baring on my photography at all.

I don't need or use live view on an M camera. It's there on my M10 and I don't use it. I don't even have much use for live view in general when shooting MFD either. Others I'm sure have uses for it.

An M9 has plenty of DR. As you've pointed out it has a tonne more than the digital cameras, especially the ones I started using in 1996! It has more than transparency film which is what I spent my time shooting before that. The M9 has enough to make it look like colour neg too. I have more in my Phase One it's certainly useful. But if you expose correctly, more is always useful but to me it is not necessary.

Buying an X1D is the sort of upgrade I see as valid for the first time in many years. It combines the IQ of Medium Format and the portability of the M. The DR and high ISO is just a bonus for me.
However there is a big difference. I don't know what kind of photography you are in with the M, but for reportage, the size of the X1D is significant. Surely smaller as for a MF and very portable, but big enough to be noticed by people and security crews. It could be intimidating. The M does not attract attention and when it does, people do not step away like with big cameras. I think most imagine that one is shooting film and security don't react either. With a dslr they jump inmediatly.
I've been in the past in some museums where photography is not allowed and with the M on shoulder clearly visible they let you in. It's quite amasing how this M opens doors where other systems close them. I don't think it's possible with the X1D.
Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #130 on: March 21, 2018, 10:28:57 am »

However there is a big difference. I don't know what kind of photography you are in with the M, but for reportage, the size of the X1D is significant. Surely smaller as for a MF and very portable, but big enough to be noticed by people and security crews. It could be intimidating. The M does not attract attention and when it does, people do not step away like with big cameras. I think most imagine that one is shooting film and security don't react either. With a dslr they jump inmediatly.
I've been in the past in some museums where photography is not allowed and with the M on shoulder clearly visible they let you in. It's quite amasing how this M opens doors where other systems close them. I don't think it's possible with the X1D.

That's not really what I do and isn't a concern for me. The X1D really isn't much bigger than the M anyway.

I would just hire the museum for the day.
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 561
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #131 on: March 21, 2018, 01:02:06 pm »

How does it compare to ProNeg standard?
eterna is the best starting point for post profile i have ever seen, obviously it is not raw....i am not really a big fan of 8 bit log footage....i really don't like the sony s-log, i think panasonic and fuji have nice log but as long as it is still only 8 bit, things just fall apart pretty quickly....
eterna has smooth tones with slight desaturation, color temp is obviously important and it cant create miracles in terms of DR but it just looks really nice, especially with skin tones....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

fredjeang2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1376
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2018, 02:41:46 pm »

eterna is the best starting point for post profile i have ever seen, obviously it is not raw....i am not really a big fan of 8 bit log footage....i really don't like the sony s-log, i think panasonic and fuji have nice log but as long as it is still only 8 bit, things just fall apart pretty quickly....
eterna has smooth tones with slight desaturation, color temp is obviously important and it cant create miracles in terms of DR but it just looks really nice, especially with skin tones....
I agree with you on S-log.
On Eterna I have a question because you have been working with.
We agree that 8bit log are not ideal.
Eterna has a good DR, low contrast satu, fine grain for the isos and above had the reputation of stability with no colour shift with brightness changes, great skin tones independently of the context... But in the Fuji still is 8bit.
So if I got it right, it's not only that it avoids a Log workflow but also preferable to log in a 8bit environement?
What I understand from your words is that it gives a starting point to grade directly, with more lattitude and directly plaisant tones than the F-log.
Is that correct?
I also understand that Fuji just didn't ad a "gimmick" lut for this simulation but really is the fruit of their experience with film and they made researches in order to offer the same characteristics in the Xh1. Is that correct?
Another way to say that it is not a marketing call but a true digital Eterna.
If you confirm those 2 points, that changes it all for me because it would be a massive plus and I might get into this Fuji just for that.
Thanks.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 02:50:39 pm by fredjeang2 »
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 561
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #133 on: March 21, 2018, 08:55:47 pm »

I agree with you on S-log.
On Eterna I have a question because you have been working with.
We agree that 8bit log are not ideal.
Eterna has a good DR, low contrast satu, fine grain for the isos and above had the reputation of stability with no colour shift with brightness changes, great skin tones independently of the context... But in the Fuji still is 8bit.
So if I got it right, it's not only that it avoids a Log workflow but also preferable to log in a 8bit environement?
What I understand from your words is that it gives a starting point to grade directly, with more lattitude and directly plaisant tones than the F-log.
Is that correct?
I also understand that Fuji just didn't ad a "gimmick" lut for this simulation but really is the fruit of their experience with film and they made researches in order to offer the same characteristics in the Xh1. Is that correct?
Another way to say that it is not a marketing call but a true digital Eterna.
If you confirm those 2 points, that changes it all for me because it would be a massive plus and I might get into this Fuji just for that.
Thanks.
the fuji, just like the sonys (mirrorless) and canons and nikon all only record 8bit video...the GH5 does 10bit (although i am not sure how much of an advantage it is with the smaller sensor and limited DR)....eterna just like all the other looks and f log is 8bit....IMO it just does a really good job distributing the data over that very limited 8bit range....nice DR and most importantly color....if you shoot eterna with the color balance way off, it will still look like crap and won't be easy to fix.....8bit log looks flat but because of the limited information is it hard to really grade well in post.....fuji acros is awesome BW and eterna awesome color negative right out of camera.....
with fuji offering 200mbps they are trying to push things towards better video, 10bit will be the next step...i doubt it will come as a firmware in the XH1, but who knows...i definitely have no interest in internal 10bit just to provide the spec.....but in reality compress the hell out of it.....i would like 60fps 4K but again, looking at the 120fps HD, i am not sure the camera can do it in a meaningful way......there is a reason a 10bit, 4k 60fps 400mbps camera like the FS7 is a LOT bigger, heavier and expensive....it does have very nice log, but for 24fps 4K i might even prefer eterna and ibis at this point (at least for situations where the more limited DR of the XH1 is not an issue)
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

gmfotografie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
    • gmfotografie
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #134 on: March 22, 2018, 02:17:47 am »

X1D has a beautiful style and gives me much more better colors out of cam as fuji does.
for me thats all why i buy the x1d

the rest is making pictures

fredjeang2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1376
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #135 on: March 22, 2018, 03:26:24 am »

the fuji, just like the sonys (mirrorless) and canons and nikon all only record 8bit video...the GH5 does 10bit (although i am not sure how much of an advantage it is with the smaller sensor and limited DR)....eterna just like all the other looks and f log is 8bit....IMO it just does a really good job distributing the data over that very limited 8bit range....nice DR and most importantly color....if you shoot eterna with the color balance way off, it will still look like crap and won't be easy to fix.....8bit log looks flat but because of the limited information is it hard to really grade well in post.....fuji acros is awesome BW and eterna awesome color negative right out of camera.....
with fuji offering 200mbps they are trying to push things towards better video, 10bit will be the next step...i doubt it will come as a firmware in the XH1, but who knows...i definitely have no interest in internal 10bit just to provide the spec.....but in reality compress the hell out of it.....i would like 60fps 4K but again, looking at the 120fps HD, i am not sure the camera can do it in a meaningful way......there is a reason a 10bit, 4k 60fps 400mbps camera like the FS7 is a LOT bigger, heavier and expensive....it does have very nice log, but for 24fps 4K i might even prefer eterna and ibis at this point (at least for situations where the more limited DR of the XH1 is not an issue)
Thanks for your time and thoughts on this aspect of the Fuji. This is all I wanted to know.
I definatly will give it a closer look, find one on rental when have time and fit it in my workflow.
I have no idea of this system lens line, but I trust Fuji on cost/quality lenses.

Ps: although the GH5 has more features for video on the paper, and a great deal of experience since the GH2, I owned a few and never was convinced totally by the images, not that much video but more specially the stills where there is definatly a penalty with smaller sensors and the promissed reduced size is not such. DR is one of them but also other aspect of the output. I give much more importance to DR in video than I do with still imagery. The good point of the m4/3 is that it opens a wide range of lenses, some of them very good, the system is inexpensive and I can see why the movement makes adepts, but I discarted it some time ago.

Eterna could make sense, and a lot in what is mainly a still camera doing video! Being able to have a solid profile that is not
Log and retains all the information and above all delivers a straighforward starting point if we take care of the shooting is not a joke. I suspect that if it works, it should be faster, constant according to different scenes, and more fun to work with in post for results that will be pleasant (pleasant, pleasing?...argh my english) for the spectator.
I see it as a sort of false log that does not have the hassles of log workflow but is the fruit of Fuji colour science in film.
And man, I love the XH1 body.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 04:21:48 am by fredjeang2 »
Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #136 on: March 22, 2018, 04:49:30 am »

X1D has a beautiful style and gives me much more better colors out of cam as fuji does.
for me thats all why i buy the x1d

the rest is making pictures

I have noticed this also. The Hasselblad looks significantly better in colour to me. It looks like proper Medium Format colour and has really impressed me.

The Fuji looks more like dSLR colour and looks relatively thin. I don't remember seeing anything from the Fuji that has impressed me.
Logged

gmfotografie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
    • gmfotografie
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #137 on: March 22, 2018, 06:37:34 am »

I have tested  the x1d for one week. I also have the canon 5dIV, 6D and the XPRO2. I never have this WOW Effect opening the RAW Files as I got from ther X1D. The pitcures are just beautiful.
For me this is the most important fact for buying this camera - then comes the cameraworkflow, resolution, sync speed and design.

This camera impressed me very much

fredjeang2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1376
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #138 on: March 22, 2018, 07:13:58 am »

I have tested  the x1d for one week. I also have the canon 5dIV, 6D and the XPRO2. I never have this WOW Effect opening the RAW Files as I got from ther X1D. The pitcures are just beautiful.
For me this is the most important fact for buying this camera - then comes the cameraworkflow, resolution, sync speed and design.

This camera impressed me very much
Man, I don't think anybody would experience ever a wao effect with a 5d4, 6d, Sony or Xpro2. They deliver what
Is expected in their respective areas but nothing exceptional either. None of those
Are top of the line of any genre but good cameras.
Depending on the photographic needs, one might experience a wao effect with a D5 or 1Dx in sport photography
Or photojournalism.

The X1d plays in another league. Horses for courses.

But if I take this on line review: https://www.google.es/amp/s/photographylife.com/fuji-gfx-50s-vs-hasselblad-x1d-50c/amp?source=images
It says the exact opposite of the latest comments. 2 people testing the same gears seeing the exact opposite is quite embarrassing. Bottom line is renting both, testing both and decide according to each one personal vision/needs.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 07:37:38 am by fredjeang2 »
Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: gfx50s fujifilm or Hasselblad x1D? is one really better?
« Reply #139 on: March 22, 2018, 08:06:38 am »

Man, I don't think anybody would experience ever a wao effect with a 5d4, 6d, Sony or Xpro2. They deliver what
Is expected in their respective areas but nothing exceptional either. None of those
Are top of the line of any genre but good cameras.
Depending on the photographic needs, one might experience a wao effect with a D5 or 1Dx in sport photography
Or photojournalism.

The X1d plays in another league. Horses for courses.

But if I take this on line review: https://www.google.es/amp/s/photographylife.com/fuji-gfx-50s-vs-hasselblad-x1d-50c/amp?source=images
It says the exact opposite of the latest comments. 2 people testing the same gears seeing the exact opposite is quite embarrassing. Bottom line is renting both, testing both and decide according to each one personal vision/needs.

That review is terrible. These online reviews are usually useless.

The reviewer says "There are no differences at low ISO values, so I am only going to show you ISO 6400 and ISO 100 pushed to 5 stops."

The reviewer then shows two pictures and says "Do you see any differences here? Good, because I don’t see any either"

But if you open up both images in separate tabbed windows and click between the two you see one is much more saturated than the other. There is a startling difference and it means the entire review is useless.

The reviewer is incapable. Doesn't even know what they are looking at or what to look for. The internet is full of amateur hacks who have no idea, making "reviews". Al they are doing is fumbling along learning and putting it out there as some kind of relevant opinion.

The only person you can rely on for a test and review is yourself.

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9   Go Up