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Author Topic: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update  (Read 21855 times)

Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2017, 12:14:10 pm »

Indeed I did. Notice the screen capture I provided with 'none' on the dropdown menu? That's really a bad design! The dropdown is populated with names of the kinds of B&W profiles to be crated. You can't create a none setting B&W profile.
Indeed you did. I should constrain my statement to the CLI bashing folks then  :-\
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GWGill

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2017, 12:13:07 am »

UI coding takes extraordinary amount of time to fiddle with things that have nothing to do with application functionality and this takes a lot of time away from the developing main functionality.
Exactly. It's certainly not from lack of wanting a GUI, that ArgyllCMS doesn't have one.
i.e. anyone assuming that the lack of a GUI has something to do with a deliberate policy of making it difficult to use, or to some lack of effort on my part, has widely missed the mark, and just seems like an attempt to rub salt into a wound.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2017, 07:46:23 am »

Exactly. It's certainly not from lack of wanting a GUI, that ArgyllCMS doesn't have one.
Agree with this and it's important to remember that ArgyllCMS has a whole bunch more functionality than many commercial offerings.  I have a Notepad file that contains all the major command line arguments that I use and I just have to do some small substitutions when I have a new paper to profile.  A simple copy from the Notepad file and paste into the command line saves me a lot of frustration brought about by mistyping something.  There are also some batch file commands HERE that will help automate some of the more common uses (I've not tried this approach).
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howardm

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2017, 03:56:18 pm »

Another point is the complexity metric (sorry for marketing speak).

Consider the GUI complexity of displaycalGUI and the amount of buttons, options and TIME (=money) just to do a reasonably complete display calibration.

I think a GUI for the print profiling and much of the rest of the toolkit would be an unholy mess.

Even w/ Mac's, you want to do something 'complex' or off-beat?  Guess what, you're going to be using Terminal.

Doug Gray

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2017, 05:42:32 pm »

Another factor to consider is that supplying a gui would invite many less sophisticated users. While that seems like a good thing, color management is a complex subject and printer ICCs in particular involve a lot of complex options and tradeoffs. People using CLIs are more likely to study the different utilities and delve into the details of ICC profiles on their own. It's free software and really can't be expected to provide the level of customer support expected from commercial products.
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robertDthomas

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2017, 08:44:15 am »

I appreciate all the conversation about GUI’s and command line operations but I would be interested in what the original poster presented.  That being the just released iStudio from X-Rite.  Has anyone received the hardware and run some profiles and got a review of that?
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digitaldog

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2017, 09:59:37 am »

I appreciate all the conversation about GUI’s and command line operations but I would be interested in what the original poster presented.  That being the just released iStudio from X-Rite.  Has anyone received the hardware and run some profiles and got a review of that?
With the old hardware (which I suspect is identical to new in terms of the profiles), yes. Here's a massive bug; doesn't appear you can build a V2 ICC profile, only V4. Not good, not good at all unless someone can find the magic V2 switch in this new and mostly unnecessary software.
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Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" on pluralsight.com

Mark D Segal

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2017, 10:48:50 am »

With the old hardware (which I suspect is identical to new in terms of the profiles), yes. Here's a massive bug; doesn't appear you can build a V2 ICC profile, only V4. Not good, not good at all unless someone can find the magic V2 switch in this new and mostly unnecessary software.

Andrew - by now has the industry not resolved the issues around V4? If not, what remaining defects would you highlight?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2017, 11:02:54 am »

Andrew - by now has the industry not resolved the issues around V4? If not, what remaining defects would you highlight?
Nope and worse, and again, V4 profiles provide nothing at all useful without (in part) support for PRMG in that profile.
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Doug Gray

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2017, 11:42:00 am »

Nope and worse, and again, V4 profiles provide nothing at all useful without (in part) support for PRMG in that profile.

Yep, currently.

V4 could provide more functionality with stuff that isn't part of the PRMG/Perc. For instance floating point and other LUT extensions that would substantially improve the gamut boundary issues with BtoA1 transforms. Right now I1Profiler produces identical Rel. Col. tables and transforms for V2 and V4 profiles and so still has the +/- 3 dE intrinsic boundary clipping errors with their highest quality (36^3 cube) settings.

Supposedly Photoshop fully supports V4 but since I don't know of any software that produces V4 utilizing these enhancements so V4 profiles at this point are more of a pain that makes no difference in most applications that support them while causing issues in some with poor support. In particular the clipping of L* below 3.1 with Perc. Intent.
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GWGill

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2017, 05:41:26 pm »

That being the just released iStudio from X-Rite.  Has anyone received the hardware and run some profiles and got a review of that?
X-Rite seem to have a knack for creating product naming confusion (I'm sure their marketing folk are very pleased with themselves!), so it's unclear to me whether "i1 Studio" means the hardware, the software, or both.

The little information I have on the hardware hints that it is virtually identical to the ColorMunki spectro. Only obvious technical change is to the USB ID number, and the color and markings of the case. Certainly it seems backwards compatible enough to be able to run with existing software, even though no existing software will recognize the new USB ID's.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 05:45:11 pm by GWGill »
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GWGill

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2017, 05:43:44 pm »

Nope and worse, and again, V4 profiles provide nothing at all useful without (in part) support for PRMG in that profile.
There's no technical obstacle to creating V2 profiles that include the PRMG. All it is, is a tag to indicate it's being used, and then using it as the intermediate gamut in generating A2B and B2A tables.
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GWGill

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2017, 05:49:06 pm »

Right now I1Profiler produces identical Rel. Col. tables and transforms for V2 and V4 profiles and so still has the +/- 3 dE intrinsic boundary clipping errors with their highest quality (36^3 cube) settings.
I'm unconvinced - it's pretty fundamental to the idea of using a general cLUT transform from PCS to device values. Yes, I'm sure that having a fancier ways of expressing the transform can improve the precision, and reduce the gamut boundary errors, but it's always going to be there. That's why I don't recommend using this color management workflow if you want highest accuracy.
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Doug Gray

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2017, 07:11:03 pm »

I'm unconvinced - it's pretty fundamental to the idea of using a general cLUT transform from PCS to device values. Yes, I'm sure that having a fancier ways of expressing the transform can improve the precision, and reduce the gamut boundary errors, but it's always going to be there. That's why I don't recommend using this color management workflow if you want highest accuracy.

Yeah, Graeme, you're right. Gamut boundary issues are fundamental to BtoA1 (and BtoA3 in V4) transforms. Not sure what I was thinking. The change to allowing float32s in the grid points buys little. Increasing the grid resolution is the only way to significantly improve BtoA1 at gamut boundaries and that comes at a high cost. While storage is cheep these days, cache locality isn't though that shouldn't be an issue in printing.

While reverse interpolating the AtoB1 tables avoids the gamut boundary issue, or better,using the raw device Lab data, either one is going to be pretty slow and is outside any standard ICC color management engine I'm aware of.

Generally, the errors that are inside the gamut boundaries by at least one grid separation have quite low error. Perhaps a special CMM where near boundary colors are handled specially by AtoB1 interpolation to locate the best device values?  Are you aware of products that do that?
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GWGill

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2017, 01:44:09 am »

While reverse interpolating the AtoB1 tables avoids the gamut boundary issue, or better,using the raw device Lab data, either one is going to be pretty slow and is outside any standard ICC color management engine I'm aware of.
There's nothing that makes it non ICC, but yes, it's going to be noticeably slower. Fully threaded RGB on a modern machine with the aim of just more accurate clipping isn't going to be that slow though (I'm guessing a fraction of a second, even with an accuracy-at-all-costs type of algorithm that I use in ArgyllCMS).
Quote
Generally, the errors that are inside the gamut boundaries by at least one grid separation have quite low error. Perhaps a special CMM where near boundary colors are handled specially by AtoB1 interpolation to locate the best device values?  Are you aware of products that do that?
An approach that might be faster would be to have two B2A tables, one that doesn't clip (although you'd have to scale the device values to allow for out of range output on grid values just outside the gamut boundary), and one that always clips, even for grid values just inside the gamut boundary. So you convert via the first, and if you get an out of gamut device value, you look up the second. The transition isn't likely to be seamless though, so there'd still have to be some sort of explicit transition region to smooth things over.

Of course all this is only a concern for colorimetric rendering. If you're doing perceptual, a rounded out compression near the gamut surface is probably what you are after anyway :-)
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digitaldog

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2017, 12:07:36 pm »

Yep, currently.
Let's examine the date upon which V4 profile creation was possible.  :o
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digitaldog

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2017, 12:10:23 pm »

There's no technical obstacle to creating V2 profiles that include the PRMG. All it is, is a tag to indicate it's being used, and then using it as the intermediate gamut in generating A2B and B2A tables.
Then this begs the questions:


1. Without PRMG, what does a V4 profile offer today that a V2 doesn't and who's package provides those option? Specifics on X-rite's product would be ideal if available since that's the overall topic here.
2. If the structure (version) isn't an issue in what can build a profile with the PRMG, who does build profiles with it? If no one, does that mean it's not as useful as it's meant to sound?
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digitaldog

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2017, 12:14:03 pm »

X-Rite seem to have a knack for creating product naming confusion (I'm sure their marketing folk are very pleased with themselves!), so it's unclear to me whether "i1 Studio" means the hardware, the software, or both.
IF it's the marketing people I used to work with, no. But then they didn't call such shots. Meaning much of the dysfunction inside of X-rite / GMB after the merger was from within the 'new' company itself. From upper levels in this case, thanks to said merger (IMHO).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: FYI - i1Studio - the ColorMunki Photo update
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2017, 12:55:03 pm »

IF it's the marketing people I used to work with, no. But then they didn't call such shots. Meaning much of the dysfunction inside of X-rite / GMB after the merger was from within the 'new' company itself. From upper levels in this case, thanks to said merger (IMHO).

And since that merger, Danaher Corporation bought the merged company, so who knows in what ways they intervene on how X-Rite operates.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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