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Author Topic: Adobe CC 2018 Update  (Read 6299 times)

Rajan Parrikar

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Adobe CC 2018 Update
« on: October 18, 2017, 01:23:09 pm »

Alert #1: During updates, I had checked the boxes for transporting earlier settings to the new CC 2018. In Camera Raw I noticed that my ProPhoto colourspace setting had changed to Adobe Colourspace and 16 bits to 8 bits.

Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 01:26:48 pm »

Alert #2: Several plugins haven't ported over to the new version.

churly

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 07:19:40 pm »

Thanks for the warning.  I have been waiting for you early adopters to test the water  ;)
Chuck
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Chuck Hurich

Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 07:39:00 pm »

Thanks for the warning.  I have been waiting for you early adopters to test the water  ;)
Chuck

For the most part it was a simple matter of copying the plugins into the new location, which for the Mac is at -

Hard Drive/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Plug-Ins/CC

The more serious issue was the one about colourspace. Also, just to be sure check again your Camera Raw settings, especially the sharpening for "Preview images only" or "All images."

fdisilvestro

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 10:00:15 am »

Hi,

I was having trouble with some key shortcuts that were not working, such as "Stamp layers" Ctrl+Alt+Shift+E. I then found on the Adobe forums that there is an issue with all shortcuts that include the "Alt" key. The funny thing is that if you press the  "Alt" key first, the shortcut does not work, but if you press first "Ctrl" and later the "Alt" key, then the shortcut works.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 10:21:56 am »

Are you folks reporting apparent bugs to Adobe?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 02:47:02 pm »

Are you folks reporting apparent bugs to Adobe?

I was going to report the issue with the key shortcuts when I found the workaround in the Adobe forums. With regards to the issues reported by Rajan (Not keeping color settings and not porting all plugins), I have experienced it with every major version update of Photoshop, so It seems hopeless to me.

Doug Gray

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2017, 06:23:27 pm »

Installed the collection. I don't see anything too different. I like the improved "help tip" popups in some places. My main concern was that they would disable or break the null transform mechanism to print w/o color management which is needed for profiling targets. First thing I check on any upgrade. It continues to work  (.13 ave dE with a print from PS with null transform compared to that from i1Profiler)  but also has all the same warnings not to do it.

One noticeable improvement is the startup speed. For some reason prior versions would hang for 10 to 15 seconds before showing the full startup screen.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2017, 10:59:48 pm »

Installed the collection. I don't see anything too different. I like the improved "help tip" popups in some places. My main concern was that they would disable or break the null transform mechanism to print w/o color management which is needed for profiling targets. First thing I check on any upgrade. It continues to work  (.13 ave dE with a print from PS with null transform compared to that from i1Profiler)  but also has all the same warnings not to do it.

One noticeable improvement is the startup speed. For some reason prior versions would hang for 10 to 15 seconds before showing the full startup screen.

Doug, grateful if you would decode/unpack this:

 - which application are you talking about?

 - What is this "null transform mechanism" you refer to (I thought it is just several choices one makes with colour spaces and rendering intents, but please define).

 - What is the dE 0.13 all about? dE(76), dE(00) and dE between what and what?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 12:53:27 am »

Doug, grateful if you would decode/unpack this:

 - which application are you talking about?

 - What is this "null transform mechanism" you refer to (I thought it is just several choices one makes with colour spaces and rendering intents, but please define).

 - What is the dE 0.13 all about? dE(76), dE(00) and dE between what and what?

Adobe Photoshop 2018, desktop.

Null transform technique is a way to bypass color management in Photoshop while retaining the ability to position profiling target sheets easily across roll paper or whatever media is being used.

The technique is quite simple. Assign any printer profile to an RGB image. It doesn't matter where the profile came from or even if for a different printer. Then print using "Photoshop Manages Color (disabling in the driver)" and select the exact same profile. This is critical. It must be the same profile.  Then print. It makes no difference what intent is selected or if BPC is selected. These are not used when the image is in the same RGB space as the printer profile. However, when this is done you get a pop up box saying "it appears you are trying to print without color management. Please use ACPU then a cancel and "get it" button. Hit the cancel and print.

This appears to be something they put in common code, possibly to deal with some intrinsic color management  conversions occurring in the OS's printer data path. This has impacted the IOS PS versions at times in normal printing so may be an issue there when trying to completely disable color management. However, Windows has always printed perfectly fine targets w/o color management, since dropping the option back in CS5 or so by using the "null transform" technique.

Adobe's ACPU is seriously crippled. About half the time if I print out a tiff target using it using the default settings the XRite I1isis2 can't read it because it shrinks the image. Expanding the target 3% seems to work but is a kluge. And positioning a target on odd sized paper is painful even when doable with ACPU.

However, I take warnings seriously and so anytime there is an update in Windows OS or Photoshop I run two test prints, one from Photoshop and one from I1Profiler (which currently works) then scan them with the I1isis. The two should match within the usual tolerance of scanning two prints made at the same time and printer.

Comparison is done using PatchTool. I use the default set of 957 patches for a standard US letter paper. When comparing patches printed in this manner the statistics of duplicate pages printed with I1Profiler should match those printed using the null transform if it does, in fact, bypass color management. The .13 dE was DeltaE2000, my preferred metric for tiny differences. The dE1976 was .19. These were the average of all 957 patches on both printed sheets.

Caveat: This has always worked on Windows, but IOS is a different animal. I have no idea what happens there but I understand ACPU doesn't have the same shrinkage issue in IOS.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 01:13:23 am by Doug Gray »
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2017, 10:15:17 am »

WARNING

Doug's ‘Null Transform’ method does not work in iterations of Mac OSX up to and including El Capitan (10.11.x). I have not tested it under ‘Sierra’ nor ‘High Sierra’.

On the Mac ACPU does reposition the target slightly but a simple adjustment of the TIFF suffices.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2017, 10:41:14 am »

Adobe Photoshop 2018, desktop.

Null transform technique is a way to bypass color management in Photoshop while retaining the ability to position profiling target sheets easily across roll paper or whatever media is being used.

The technique is quite simple. Assign any printer profile to an RGB image. It doesn't matter where the profile came from or even if for a different printer. Then print using "Photoshop Manages Color (disabling in the driver)" and select the exact same profile. This is critical. It must be the same profile.  Then print. It makes no difference what intent is selected or if BPC is selected. These are not used when the image is in the same RGB space as the printer profile. However, when this is done you get a pop up box saying "it appears you are trying to print without color management. Please use ACPU then a cancel and "get it" button. Hit the cancel and print.

This appears to be something they put in common code, possibly to deal with some intrinsic color management  conversions occurring in the OS's printer data path. This has impacted the IOS PS versions at times in normal printing so may be an issue there when trying to completely disable color management. However, Windows has always printed perfectly fine targets w/o color management, since dropping the option back in CS5 or so by using the "null transform" technique.

Adobe's ACPU is seriously crippled. About half the time if I print out a tiff target using it using the default settings the XRite I1isis2 can't read it because it shrinks the image. Expanding the target 3% seems to work but is a kluge. And positioning a target on odd sized paper is painful even when doable with ACPU.

However, I take warnings seriously and so anytime there is an update in Windows OS or Photoshop I run two test prints, one from Photoshop and one from I1Profiler (which currently works) then scan them with the I1isis. The two should match within the usual tolerance of scanning two prints made at the same time and printer.

Comparison is done using PatchTool. I use the default set of 957 patches for a standard US letter paper. When comparing patches printed in this manner the statistics of duplicate pages printed with I1Profiler should match those printed using the null transform if it does, in fact, bypass color management. The .13 dE was DeltaE2000, my preferred metric for tiny differences. The dE1976 was .19. These were the average of all 957 patches on both printed sheets.

Caveat: This has always worked on Windows, but IOS is a different animal. I have no idea what happens there but I understand ACPU doesn't have the same shrinkage issue in IOS.

Thanks Doug, that clarifies it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2017, 10:43:28 am »

WARNING

Doug's ‘Null Transform’ method does not work in iterations of Mac OSX up to and including El Capitan (10.11.x). I have not tested it under ‘Sierra’ nor ‘High Sierra’.

On the Mac ACPU does reposition the target slightly but a simple adjustment of the TIFF suffices.

Hi Simon,

I've been using ACPU (being on a Mac) without difficulty for all the profiling I've been doing, and i1Profiler, using the i1Pro2 has no problem reading the targets. But an iSiS is a different ball-game.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2017, 02:01:54 pm »

WARNING

Doug's ‘Null Transform’ method does not work in iterations of Mac OSX up to and including El Capitan (10.11.x). I have not tested it under ‘Sierra’ nor ‘High Sierra’.

On the Mac ACPU does reposition the target slightly but a simple adjustment of the TIFF suffices.
That certainly explains why Adobe puts the big bad warning when using the same printer profile as the image tagged one. I've read Apple's data path carries, and uses, metadata differently than Microsoft which would explain the different behavior.  Now, if Adobe would just fix their ACPU...

Mark,
I too never had a problem with I1Pro's in their assorted vintages but the i1iSiS is pretty picky about dimensions. But the i1iSiS is good with excellent repeatability on all my usual paper outside of a Baryta semi where the spacing wheels slightly squish the surface and can shift readings several dE76. I work around that by setting the margin spacing so the squish marks are on the boundaries of the 6mm patches. Easily done with Photoshop but not directly in I1Profiler. The most marginal media is canvas which, being stretchy, is not sufficiently dimensionally stable and the i1iSiS requires that. I get more consistent results with the I1Pro2 for canvas.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2017, 02:43:22 pm »

Interesting thread discussing the reason Adobe removed the no color management option.

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/997604

It all boils down to IOS forcing color management. Apparently ACPU is using some older deprecated path that only provides 8 bits to the printer but doesn't force CM. Fine for profiles so long as Apple continues to provide this secondary path. But the 16 bit printer path just won't allow for untagged data. Since Windows hasn't (so far) changed their drivers to 16 bits the null transform continues to work and the warning can be disregarded.

Michael Reichmann has a great post about the flail that occurred when Apple did this and everything broke. At the time he used Adobe RGB as the common tag to achieve a null transform. Adobe has since removed working space RGB profiles from the list of selectable printer profiles. An actual null transform using a printer profile, where the data is converted to then from the PCS, will introduce errors the magnitude of which vary depending on how well the profile inverts. But it will always introduce some error.  Windows simply sees the profiles are the same and skips the transform altogether so on Windows the null transform continues to function perfectly. Of course there is a new Win 10 out. I see another test coming up shortly.

Michael's rundown of the great flail.
https://luminous-landscape.com/solving-recent-profiling-issues-with-apple-computers-epson-printers-and-photoshop/


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BobShaw

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2017, 07:36:58 pm »

Why should you have to do all this repair work when you "upgrade" an Adobe app? Everyone else just upgrades the app and the settings stay the same.
Even just renaming the app is a pain as the dock alias does not work anymore.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:43:41 am by BobShaw »
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kirkt

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 09:00:25 am »

"Print-Tool" for Mac users will permit one control over color management during printing.  From the same author as QuadTone RIP:

http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRprinttool.html

kirk
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2017, 09:43:48 am »

"Print-Tool" for Mac users will permit one control over color management during printing.  From the same author as QuadTone RIP:

http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRprinttool.html

kirk

For me would seem to be a non-starter unless I misunderstood something; but apparently - can't print from raw files, not yet adapted to the Ultrachrome HDX inkset for the Epson SC-P5000 and no Absolute Rendering Intent. For creating profiles one needs QTR (separate license and requires Photoshop (all based on what I read of their documentation).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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kirkt

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2017, 09:59:19 am »

For me would seem to be a non-starter unless I misunderstood something; but apparently - can't print from raw files, not yet adapted to the Ultrachrome HDX inkset for the Epson SC-P5000 and no Absolute Rendering Intent. For creating profiles one needs QTR (separate license and requires Photoshop (all based on what I read of their documentation).

This is a utility that permits printing non-color-managed targets for profiling (no color management), obviating the need for adobe's utility or for the workaround detailed above that is not permitted by Photoshop on Macs.  It also gives control over the size and layout of the target for print.

No need for QTR.

kirk
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe CC 2018 Update
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2017, 10:09:18 am »

Thanks for the clarification.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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