long live NRA - next convention in Mandalay Bay !

[Alan Klein]

Well maybe this is a better list : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

There you'll see that 95% of the US cities on this list have a murder rate higher then most European countries, didn't know there were so many left hotspots where things go awry.

And if you exclude all kind of cities should we also exclude the gang shootings in Antwerp/Amsterdam/Hamburg/Marseille etc. That will drop the European murder rates too. I'm not in favour of that, for me that's too much of "figures don't lie, but liars figure", too much excluding enough unfavourable data so the final answer supports the point one wants to make.

The issue in the USA is the high murder rate for black Americans.  It's 11.2 per 100,000.  Overall murder rate for all races is 2.99 per 100,000.  For whites, it's 1.7 per 100,000.  So the national average is skewed. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

[Alan Klein]

there are some things that could be done to control the number and types of guns a single individual can own.  I've done a lot of bird hunting and only need a nice shotgun for that purpose.  In the 'old' days police used 5 or 6 shot revolvers and that was deemed sufficient for them (can't remember what the magazine capacity is for the Glocks that are now ubiquitous but it's higher).  Does anyone other than the NRA and its minions think that high capacity assault rifles serve any sporting purpose?  Does someone really need 19 guns in their possession?

Another thing that could be done is to eliminate the various laws that shield these companies from liability.  Apparently one of the weapons used in the Las Vegas shootings had a stock attachment ($40 is the cost according to the Washington Post) that allowed it to fire in a rapid burst mode that is prohibited by the 'machine gun' ban.  Why is this even sold?  Can this manufacturer be sued by the shooting victims?

We all have to register our cars with the various state MVAs.  Why should there not be a similar system in place for guns?  Alternatively, the NRA could run a national database to track those who try to stockpile weapons though I suspect the NRA thinks that it is just fine for people to own miniature arsenals in their homes.As already noted, pure ammonium nitrate fertilize is regulated as are a lot of other compounds that can be used for making explosives.

Finally, just because there are those who would circumvent the law in terms of any firearms regulation does not mean that we should not try.  We regulate cars and a bunch of other stuff and nobody seems to object the same way they do about guns.

The 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms have nothing to do with hunting.  There is no Constitutional protection for hunting. States grant hunting licenses and impose requirements as they see fit.  Hunting and the 2nd Amendment is a red herring used to change the meaning of the Constitution and fool people.    The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is personal defense and as a protection against tyranny.  That's why the NRA opposes any restrictions.  They see any limitations as a slippery slope to eventually take guns away from citizens and make them defenseless against oppressive government. 

Also, there is no constitutional protection for driving a car.  That's a privilege granted by each state as they see fit, just like hunting.   

Having said all that, there are plenty of checks regarding gun ownership that do not violate the constitution's 2nd amendment. 

[Alan Klein]

Here I agree with you, the problem is not the government, it's the NRA gun lobby and the people who believe guns means freedom and less crime. When the will of the (majority of) the people is to make gatting and carrying guns easy the government will follow the majority. It's the will of the US people that is up for discussion here, not the government.

The NRA is not a "problem".   You may or may not agree with it's point of view.  But, we live in a country where citizens can petition (lobby) Congress to enact or not enact laws.  That's what democracy is all about.  The fact they have 5 million members is actually huge, Most groups who lobby Congress are tiny by comparison.  In any case, the NRA has a right to push their point of view and support or oppose legislators depending on how they expect them to vote.  That's what democracy is all about, isn't it?

Also, see my last post.  The right to bear arms is Constitutionally protected, like freedom of speech.  A majority of states (I think 75%) would have to amend the constitution to change the 2nd Amendment. 

[texshooter]

Catalonians may soon wish they had more guns.

[Alan Klein]

Can't speak for Europe (which is a continent comprising multiple different countries, seemingly to the surprise of many Americans), but in England, I think the answer to your question is yes.

Jeremy

What did England do to tighten up on leasing trucks?

[Robert Roaldi]

What did England do to tighten up on leasing trucks?

A guy shows up to a hotel with close to two dozen weapons and shoots nearly 600 people, and now we're talking about the dangers of truck leasing.

Russ waas right about one thing, this thread is going nowhere useful.

[Peter McLennan]

I wonder why there was no outcry to ban fertilizers?

Or my 70-200 f2.8  It would make an excellent club.

[Alan Klein]

A guy shows up to a hotel with close to two dozen weapons and shoots nearly 600 people, and now we're talking about the dangers of truck leasing.

Russ waas right about one thing, this thread is going nowhere useful.

More people were killed by truck in the last 13 months than in Las Vegas.  Why shouldn't we look into how trucks are being used by terrorists?  You're willing to address gun control.

Truck terrorism last 13 months.
August 17, 2017, Barcelona, Spain — A van plowed into pedestrians in the Las Ramblas tourist area, killing 13 and injuring more than 100, according to officials.
June 3, 2017, London, England — A van was driven into crowds on London Bridge, after which the attackers left their vehicle and stabbed several people in the area. Seven people were killed and nearly 50 injured.
April 7, 2017, Stockholm, Sweden — A truck was driven into a Swedish department store, killing four people.
March 22, 2017, London, England — An SUV drove into crowds in London near Parliament. Four people were killed by the vehicle, and one police officer was stabbed after the driver left the vehicle.
December 19, 2016, Berlin, Germany - A truck was driven into crowds at a Christmas market, killing 12 people.
July 14, 2016, Nice, France — A truck was driven into crowds on Bastille Day, killing 86 people.

[Chairman Bill]

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is personal defense and as a protection against tyranny. 

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to provide a defence force in the absence of a standing army, hence the "well-regulated militia" bit. A standing army was seen as a threat to freedom. You've gone way past that.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

 

Or my 70-200 f2.8  It would make an excellent club.

In your case, it would be a much better use 

[Alan Goldhammer]

The 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms have nothing to do with hunting.  There is no Constitutional protection for hunting. States grant hunting licenses and impose requirements as they see fit.  Hunting and the 2nd Amendment is a red herring used to change the meaning of the Constitution and fool people.    The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is personal defense and as a protection against tyranny.  That's why the NRA opposes any restrictions.  They see any limitations as a slippery slope to eventually take guns away from citizens and make them defenseless against oppressive government. 

Also, there is no constitutional protection for driving a car.  That's a privilege granted by each state as they see fit, just like hunting.   

Having said all that, there are plenty of checks regarding gun ownership that do not violate the constitution's 2nd amendment.

The exact language of the 2nd amendment is, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."  Those who wrote these words had no idea of how 'arms' would evolve to they types of firearms we have today.  The NRA originally started out as an organization for firearms education and training.  In the mid-1980s there was a takeover of the organization and the current hard line lobbying began.  The by-laws were changed to make it almost impossible for moderates to bring the organization back to its original organizational goal.  A variety of US courts have come to contradictory conclusions about the meaning of these words as did some of the original framers.

You and I are in total disagreement about whether there are lots of checks regarding gun ownership that don't violate the 2nd amendment.  The few checks that we do have are insufficient.

[Alan Klein]

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to provide a defence force in the absence of a standing army, hence the "well-regulated militia" bit. A standing army was seen as a threat to freedom. You've gone way past that.

I prefer the interpretations of our Founders of the Constitution over yours regarding the right to bear arms.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

See the rest:
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/gun-quotations-founding-fathers

[Telecaster]

"Hmmm, an opportunity in the midst of horror to dig into the actual nitty gritty of what drives such behavior. And then maybe to consider ways to confront it."

"Nah, I'd rather yank my ideological weenie to the tunes of my favorite mantras."

-Dave-

[Alan Klein]

The exact language of the 2nd amendment is, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."  Those who wrote these words had no idea of how 'arms' would evolve to they types of firearms we have today.  The NRA originally started out as an organization for firearms education and training.  In the mid-1980s there was a takeover of the organization and the current hard line lobbying began.  The by-laws were changed to make it almost impossible for moderates to bring the organization back to its original organizational goal.  A variety of US courts have come to contradictory conclusions about the meaning of these words as did some of the original framers.

You and I are in total disagreement about whether there are lots of checks regarding gun ownership that don't violate the 2nd amendment.  The few checks that we do have are insufficient.

Yes, weapon violence has increased.  But the Supreme Court has allowed only single shot weapons as being protected under the Constitution's 2nd Amendment.   Machine guns as apparently used in Las Vegas, rocket propelled launchers, grenade launchers, etc can be and are outlawed. 

The fact that the NRA changed its political operation is allowed.  I don't understand your point other than you don't like that they have change their operation and are very effective politically.  No one is forcing you to join their organization.  Start or join one that opposes them if you're upset about them.  That's what free speech and democracy are all about, isn't it? 

[Alan Klein]

"Hmmm, an opportunity in the midst of horror to dig into the actual nitty gritty of what drives such behavior. And then maybe to consider ways to confront it."

"Nah, I'd rather yank my ideological weenie to the tunes of my favorite mantras."

-Dave-

Extreme God-feeling narcissism, ego centric insanity.  Something we all suffer from in one degree or another but control for the main part.  Ever have road rage when you want to run that guy off the road who cut you off?   "Thou shall not kill" isn't one of the Ten for no reason.

The Las Vegas fellow other than what he did seems like a regular guy, more or less.  No criminal record, a gambler but hey, this happened in Las Vegas. Who doesn't gamble there?   He probably got that suite for no cost as a comp  because he gambles there a lot.  A regular guy with a girl friend. Apparently a millionaire.  How do you protect yourself from a nut like that who looks like everyone else?   All terrorists seem to have this need to play God.  Something is going to come out that will explain what made him lose all moral scruples and resort to real evil. 

[JoeKitchen]

I wouldn't feel a whole lot better getting my throat cut by a single-edged knife than by a double-edged one. Frankly, if I was going to be killed, I'd prefer a single bullet in the head. From a rifle or a pistol is immaterial.

Why can't you sharpen your own knives? It's very easy to do if you get a good stone. That way, your kitchen tool comes home once, wrapped and safe and probably in an expensive box, and never sees the street again.

My point was that daggers sole purpose is to kill, or seriously wound, another person. 

Although a single edge knife can kill someone, their main purpose is as a cutting tool.  You can't use a dagger like a normal knife either since you often place your hand on the bolster or spine when using a knife for many purposes. 

Daggers have no other purpose then to kill, which is why I feel they should be regulated, whereas knives I feel should not.  I have the same feelings for handguns and rifles/shotguns, respectively. 

[Robert Roaldi]

More people were killed by truck in the last 13 months than in Las Vegas.  Why shouldn't we look into how trucks are being used by terrorists?  You're willing to address gun control.

Truck terrorism last 13 months.
August 17, 2017, Barcelona, Spain — A van plowed into pedestrians in the Las Ramblas tourist area, killing 13 and injuring more than 100, according to officials.
June 3, 2017, London, England — A van was driven into crowds on London Bridge, after which the attackers left their vehicle and stabbed several people in the area. Seven people were killed and nearly 50 injured.
April 7, 2017, Stockholm, Sweden — A truck was driven into a Swedish department store, killing four people.
March 22, 2017, London, England — An SUV drove into crowds in London near Parliament. Four people were killed by the vehicle, and one police officer was stabbed after the driver left the vehicle.
December 19, 2016, Berlin, Germany - A truck was driven into crowds at a Christmas market, killing 12 people.
July 14, 2016, Nice, France — A truck was driven into crowds on Bastille Day, killing 86 people.

As long as we're off on an irrelevant tangent about terrorists, which is NOT what this thread is about, how many NRA members have stopped terrorists lately?

How many times has an American militia had to stop a totalitarian take-over of the USA lately? Or ever. Or even come close. I don't mean in novels or movies, I mean in real life.

Since all the stats seem to indicate that there are more guns around than there is population, how are more guns going to make you safer? Do you need one in each hand?

But like I said in a couple of previous posts, go ahead and buy all the guns you want or think you need, and go ahead and buy suppressors for them too if you think you need to. There is no problem if you don't think there is one. The system is working well, keep doing what you're doing, don't change a thing. The rest of the world has it wrong, all the stats they're collecting are wrong and they're trying to lead you astray. It's not true that they don't shoot as many people as Americans do, it's the fake media trying to con you out of your constitutional right because, well, just because.

I apologize, I cannot take this discussion seriously any longer.

[Farmer]

Hi Pieter. Guess you missed the term "Asia." And yes, in WW II we were attacked ourselves. Why do you suppose that was so? Maybe it had something to do with the fact that except for Britain the whole Western world had demonstrated its wussiness. And as far as not wanting to downplay the role the US played in ending WW2, you CAN'T. If it weren't for the U.S. and its guns you'd be forced to become a member of the Nazi party.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand - those that immediately come to mind.  How were they wussy?  At its peak during WWII, Australia had the 4th largest air force in the world.  Considering the population and economic capacity at the time, that was an enormous effort.  How is that not contributing?

The guns of the average citizen had nothing to do with the US impact on the war - it was the US economic and industrial capacity and if it had not been hamstrung by internal politics and entered the war sooner, it would have been over sooner.

[texshooter]

Leftists say it's ok to ban nonviolent psychiatric patients from owning guns, but it's not ok to ban unvetted Wahabi Muslims from immigration.

What ever happened to the argument: "Not all [fill in the blank] are terrorists."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/02/10/the-gop-is-making-it-easier-for-mentally-ill-people-to-buy-guns-they-have-a-point/?utm_term=.66826bc98c1b

[kers]

  How do you protect yourself from a nut like that who looks like everyone else?

Easy if everyone else has 20 shoguns...