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Author Topic: What next for Canon?  (Read 736986 times)

shadowblade

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2017, 10:15:39 am »

Shadowblade,

Your ability to build stories around your beliefs if quite remarkable. I honnestly think that you should consider writing fiction novels if you have not done so yet.

Do you really believe for a second that Nikon, a company not doing well according to you, would waste precious resources patenting designs they have no intention to release? That's what you do when you have cash to burn.

When you pursue a direction in R&D, you come up with a lot of things that could prove useful in the future, even if they aren't useful now. At very least, if you came up with something in the course of your work, you wouldn't want someone else capitalising on it without paying you, even if you can't use it yourself. Hence the patent.

A lot of ideas and design that are patented - in any field of science or engineering - are not the goal of the project, but merely the result of one of the side-paths you went down while trying to find the path to your intended destination. But, just as you don't just ignore and forget any side-paths and interesting features you find while exploring a new area, you don't just discard any good, but non-applicable (to your current goal) ideas you come up with during a project - you mark the side-paths and features on a map, and you patent the ideas.

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Besides, what makes you think they would invest in mirrorless at this point without a winning product, whch must mean a product with great focusing abilities. Why would they go from dominating the DSLR AF technology to going subpar in the mirrorless world?

Because it's either that or go the way of Kodak. Kodak also had a winning product. Once alternate technology (digital vs film) surpassed them, they went the way of the dodo. It will be the same with the SLR - once mirrorless surpasses it (and it will, given that there's so much more than can be done using sensor data rather than an image reflected in a mirror), it won't matter how good an SLR they can make.

Besides, they're not doing too well in the SLR world either, market-share wise. Momentum goes a long way, and Canon grabbed a lot of that by being first off the block with a lot of technologies earlier on - full-frame, CMOS, video, etc. Better to compete in an area where everyone has to start from scratch.
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shadowblade

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #101 on: September 07, 2017, 10:18:03 am »

Shadowblade,

Your ability to build stories around your beliefs if quite remarkable. I honnestly think that you should consider writing fiction novels if you have not done so yet.

You have yet to refute the argument.

I suggest you take a class in logic or debating. Ad hominem attacks won't get you very far.

We get it. You love Nikon to death. But you haven't once explained how Nikon will survive the rise of mirrorless technology, what assets they have that will help them do so, what steps they have taken to do this and what evidence there is for it (e.g. features in released products). 'I like Nikon, so they're better and they'll do well' doesn't constitute an argument.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 10:32:35 am by shadowblade »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #102 on: September 07, 2017, 10:48:18 am »

You have yet to refute the argument.

I suggest you take a class in logic or debating. Ad hominem attacks won't get you very far.

We get it. You love Nikon to death. 'I like Nikon, so they're better and they'll do well' doesn't constitute an argument.

Re-read our exchanges, there has been plenty of perfectly reasonnable refutation. You are not listening because you base your argument on some unfounded dogma about supposed Nikon inabilties.

And no, I don't love Nikon to death, I just think they design the best DSLRs today and facts appear to support this belief pretty well.

But I will have zero hesitation the day somebody else makes a better tool for some applications. This is the reason why I also own a Sony a5100 and RX100 mkIV and a Hasselblad. Would I have preferred to own an P1? Yes, but it was above my pay grade. ;) I use the cameras I own and can justify pretty well the ratinale for my choices of equipment, my portfolio should be evidence of this.

In short, I go with the best I can afford while trying to maintain as little overlap as possible.

Regarding my Nikon mirrorless forecast... it doesn't derive from brand love, it derives from factual evidence such as patents, Nikon's own public comments, the current under usage of their main high end production facility in Japan and their past achievements in terms of AF and mirrorless technology. Add to this informed comments from people like Thom Hogan and it is 90% sure that we will see interesting things from Nikon in mirrorless soon.

I currently prefer OVFs so no idea if I would buy such a camera or whatever Sony may come up with or even Canon for that matter.

I will look at facts and decide what works best for me based on my current investement in Nikon lenss.

I love diversity and have only praise for what Sony has been doing. I have a lot less respect for Canon because in my view they have not been serving the market as well as they could/should have. But this has nothing to do with me using Nikon gear in the DSLR segment.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 10:52:07 am by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #103 on: September 07, 2017, 11:14:10 am »

Re-read our exchanges, there has been plenty of perfectly reasonnable refutation. You are not listening because you base your argument on some unfounded dogma about supposed Nikon inabilties.

I regard every manufacturer as 'unable' until they demonstrate the ability to do something.

So far, Canon and Sony have demonstrated numerous mirrorless-related technologies - dual-pixel technology, fast on-sensor PDAF, lag-free EVFs, etc. These have gotten better with every generation, whether implemented in mirrorless cameras or as part of the live view or video functions in SLRs or video cameras. Nikon hasn't demonstrated any for years.

I'll regard Nikon as being able to do it when they actually demonstrate that capability.

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And no, I don't love Nikon to death, I just think they design the best DSLRs today and facts appear to support this belief pretty well.

Yes, they make the best SLRs. Twenty years ago, Kodak was a top film producer. And, at one stage, someone probably made better horse-drawn buggies than anyone else. They all became irrelevant when they were superseded by new technology.

I'm interested in future developments, not past ones. The end of the road is in sight for SLRs. I have no interest in investing in a system which may not make that transition smoothly. No good buying a full set of lenses now, only to have to replace them in a few years time because they won't let mirrorless bodies work to the best of their ability.

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Regarding my Nikon mirrorless forecast... it doesn't derive from brand love, it derives from factual evidence such as patents, Nikon's own public comments, the current under usage of their main high end production facility in Japan and their past achievements in terms of AF and mirrorless technology. Add to this informed comments from people like Thom Hogan and it is 90% sure that we will see interesting things from Nikon in mirrorless soon.

There is little overlap between SLR and mirrorless focusing methods. Mirrorless cameras can take advantage of a lot of things not available to SLRs, due to the through-the-sensor composition and focusing (such as a lot of AI-based focusing), while some methods are available to SLRs but inapplicable to mirrorless cameras (since the AF system and the imaging system must use the same sensor). So proficiency in one system doesn't mean proficiency in the other.

Any company involved in R&D will produce a lot of patents. Most of them don't mean very much and will never see the light of day - they're registered for intellectual property reasons more than anything else. Someone even patented an automated butt-kicker - I doubt anyone's actually built one.

It's a fact that Nikon cannot make sensors - they rely on others to do so. In a mirrorless camera, the sensor is a lot more central to function than it ever was in an SLR - whereas in an SLR it merely takes the place of film, in a mirrorless camera, it's responsible for almost every function of the camera. That is, the sensor almost defines the camera. The inability to make sensors leaves Nikon at the mercy of everyone else, which isn't a great position to be in.

They could do very well as an optics specialist, producing lenses to go on Canon, Sony and other cameras. They have the production facilities and engineering credentials for that. But I doubt they will.

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I love diversity and have only praise for what Sony has been doing. I have a lot less respect for Canon because in my view they have not been serving the market as well as they could/should have. But this has nothing to do with me using Nikon gear in the DSLR segment.

Canon is sitting on its laurels, which it earned in the early days of DSLRs.

But it has a lot of latent potential - financial, infrastructure and human. It has much more money than Nikon, more manufacturing capacity (sensors, electronics and optics) and just as many talented engineers. At the moment, I get the sense they're mostly sitting back, trickling out products as the market demands, while building up an arsenal of unreleased technologies that can be released in the future, rather like a military force in peacetime. All it takes is management will, or a looming threat to the company's bottom line, and it can easily kick into action again and release game-changing products.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2017, 11:34:58 am »

Canon is sitting on its laurels, which it earned in the early days of DSLRs.

But it has a lot of latent potential - financial, infrastructure and human. It has much more money than Nikon, more manufacturing capacity (sensors, electronics and optics) and just as many talented engineers. At the moment, I get the sense they're mostly sitting back, trickling out products as the market demands, while building up an arsenal of unreleased technologies that can be released in the future, rather like a military force in peacetime. All it takes is management will, or a looming threat to the company's bottom line, and it can easily kick into action again and release game-changing products.

Don't know about game changing products (although they've already demonstrated an APS-H-format 250 megapixel CMOS-sensor in 2015), but they are in the game for the long haul, it seems:
Canon to launch new, partially-automated camera plant in Japan in 2019
https://www.dpreview.com/news/4275055835/canon-will-launch-a-new-partially-automated-camera-plant-in-japan-in-2019
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Canon has revealed that it is building a new semi-automated camera plant in Japan, and that it expects to open the plant in 2019. The factory will be located in the Miyazaki Prefecture on a 300,000 square meter land parcel, marking this the first time Canon has built a new camera production facility in Japan since 2010. The plant will focus on producing single-lens reflex cameras, according to Nikkei.

While a regrouping/consolidation of manufacturing plants that are now situated elsewhere, one doesn't invest in such a facility for the short term.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 11:41:42 am by BartvanderWolf »
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danbereskin

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #105 on: September 07, 2017, 09:39:22 pm »

I hesitate to comment considering that everyone who has done so on this thread is far more knowledgeable than me, but here goes anyhow.  For my landscape photography, I used to lug around a 4x5 film camera, heavy tripod, dark cloth, multi lenses, etc. etc., up and down mountains.  When I saw the specs of the first full frame pro Canon DSLR, I assembled all my LF cameras, lenses and accessories and sold them. Haven't looked back since.  Right now, I have a 5D MK II, and a Sony NEX 7 for travel.  I have only two Canon lenses, the 24mm T/S II, and 70-200 2.8 L.  I was planning to get a 5DS R, but based on comments on this thread, I'm going to hold off for another year or two.  I have no idea what the future will bring, but am confident that any of the famous landscape phtographers of the past would have been thrilled to replace their LF gear with any currently available full frame DLSR, together with PS and LR.  Maybe even an iPhone 6.  The lenses I use are Contax, with adapters, and Mamiya 645 M with a Mirex T/S adapter.  It wouldn't shock me that the DLSR will die, not necessarily because mirrorless cameras have become better, but possibly because they're eventually less expensive to make with comparable results.  What photographic artist needs anything better than what is now available?
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Hans Kruse

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #106 on: September 08, 2017, 04:44:25 am »

As a landscape shooter, those are precisely the reasons I prefer mirrorless or live view over an OVF. Even my old 5D2s were never taken out of live view mode.

Regardless of how dark it is, they always give me a big, bright image that accurately reflects the exposure of the image, rather than the brightness of the scene. An image that takes an 8-second exposure looks very different from the scene's appearance in an OVF, yet, with an EVF, what I see is what I'll get. By zooming in, I can see exactly what's in focus and what's out of focus, especially when using tilt-shifts. I can see which highlights and shadows will be blown out. In situations where DR isn't a concern, I can accurately expose to the right without fear of blowing out, for improved noise. I can instantly see what a scene will look like with various white balance settings, rather than not knowing until after the shot. And a big, bright LCD screen that can be zoomed in and out is always going to let me see a lot more detail than a relatively tiny OVF, no matter how good.

The thing is that this is exactly the way of shooting that I don't do. Btw. I had tilt-shift for landscape because I thought this would be an advantage, but they are not in my opinion so I sold them again. With my way of shooting I don't need to check for blown highlights in the viewfinder and I don't need to check for focus. If I didn't get the results I want I would not shoot that way. I do and I concentrate on my compositions and doind what you describe is a distraction to me from what really matters. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that's not the way I shoot. I don't want to look at an ugly TV screen in the viewfinder. I'm sure they will get really good at some point in time, but so far they all look ugly. My mind translates what I see in the OVF to the images I want to make in post processing.

scooby70

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #107 on: September 08, 2017, 06:17:18 am »

The thing is that this is exactly the way of shooting that I don't do. Btw. I had tilt-shift for landscape because I thought this would be an advantage, but they are not in my opinion so I sold them again. With my way of shooting I don't need to check for blown highlights in the viewfinder and I don't need to check for focus. If I didn't get the results I want I would not shoot that way. I do and I concentrate on my compositions and doind what you describe is a distraction to me from what really matters. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that's not the way I shoot. I don't want to look at an ugly TV screen in the viewfinder. I'm sure they will get really good at some point in time, but so far they all look ugly. My mind translates what I see in the OVF to the images I want to make in post processing.

WoW.

You're not concerned with blown highlights and focus is a non issue and freed from these trivialities you can concentrate on composition. That's a different way of shooting :D

Maybe it's because I worked with technology and sat and stared at a screen for years that I accepted and embraced mirrorless quite easily but it does seem to suit how I want to make pictures. Having exposure aids and being able to see what's in focus because the image is greatly magnified seem like big plus points to me and freed from these technical challenges and difficulties which may ruin an image I can concentrate on the image as it'll appear in its final form. A thing that IMO mirrorless makes much easier.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #108 on: September 08, 2017, 06:41:44 am »

WoW.

You're not concerned with blown highlights and focus is a non issue and freed from these trivialities you can concentrate on composition. That's a different way of shooting :D

Maybe it's because I worked with technology and sat and stared at a screen for years that I accepted and embraced mirrorless quite easily but it does seem to suit how I want to make pictures. Having exposure aids and being able to see what's in focus because the image is greatly magnified seem like big plus points to me and freed from these technical challenges and difficulties which may ruin an image I can concentrate on the image as it'll appear in its final form. A thing that IMO mirrorless makes much easier.

I didn't say I was not concerned with blowing highlights or focus, did I? I was saying that I have a shooting technique where I know I have the right focus and I'm not blowing highlights. Obviously it is needed to have these things under control. You could browse my galleries and see that this is the case.

hogloff

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #109 on: September 08, 2017, 09:06:45 am »

My comment wasn't about the rumored specs, it was about the purposeful leaking of what can only be misleading information one day before the actual market availability of a competitor's new product.

Canon does it every single time and the implied "soon" ends up taking years.

This is IMHO borderline blatently false advertising.

Cheers,
Bernard



Seems like their "blatant false advertising" is working. They caught you hook, line and sinker and you are talking about it...job done!
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hogloff

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #110 on: September 08, 2017, 09:12:19 am »

That's an old, discontinued line of cameras which hasn't received an update in years. Decent AF conpared to other mirrorless cameras of its time, but still with a laggy EVF. It's no A9, that's for sure.

We can only judge the state of manufacturers' technology by what they release, not what they promise. Canon and Sony have demonstrated ongoing development and prowess in mirrorless-related technologies (whether they're actually being used in a mirrorless camera, or as part of a video camera or live view system). Apart from a one-off, now-abandoned effort, Nikon has not. Until they demonstrate otherwise,  e.g. by including a lag-free display or super-fast live view AF in the D850, there's no reason to believe they even have that capability. Anything else is just rhetoric or corporate marketing.

That goes for every company. No-one expected the A9 to AF as well as the top tier of SLRs (1Dx2/D4s/D5). Then they released it. There's no demonstration like a released product showing the capability.

Yeh with the abandoned 1 series and the DF disaster, I would not be one jumping into any new line of cameras from Nikon until they become serious.
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hogloff

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #111 on: September 08, 2017, 09:20:08 am »



It is often mentioned by people who promote or like mirrorless cameras that the advantage is all the things you can see in the viewfinder like focus and exposure information. But really what I want to see in the view finder is what I'm shooting and not overlaid by tons of information that I don't really need.


Actually you can pick and choose what information you see in the viewfinder. I have a few with the histogram setup in the bottom right corner. To see this histogram appear in the viewfinder, I hit a button and it's there for a quick check if I like. Hit the button again, it is gone. Love this feature.

I also like the ability to actually see your exposure in the viewfinder rather than chimping with the rear LCD which I have turned off most of the time now.

Shooting street where you don't have a 2nd chance...the what you see is what you get is invaluable.

I guess I'm not like you...getting perfect exposure every time.
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hogloff

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2017, 09:25:34 am »



Do you really believe for a second that Nikon, a company not doing well according to you, would waste precious resources patenting designs they have no intention to release? That's what you do when you have cash to burn.


Cheers,
Bernard

The vast majority of patents never ever get commercialized. Patents are used by companies to block others from developing technology...happens all the time. In fact many companies have more value in their patents than their products.
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NancyP

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2017, 11:49:11 am »

I like my Canon gear. Is it perfect? No. I do desire more dynamic range in some situations, and when a sensor comes along that is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the 6D sensor, I will consider an upgrade. HDR or other exposure blending can't handle all situations. However, I like the lens selections and I like the handling. Colors are pleasing. I also desire waterproofness, and have thought about adding a Pentax if I do more kayaking than I do at present.

Hogloff is quite correct that many patents are made to keep others from building on those patents.
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sbay

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #114 on: September 08, 2017, 02:18:42 pm »

It is often mentioned by people who promote or like mirrorless cameras that the advantage is all the things you can see in the viewfinder like focus and exposure information. But really what I want to see in the view finder is what I'm shooting and not overlaid by tons of information that I don't really need. What really counts for me is a camera that can be shot in a way so that I have a technically perfect shot every time I compose an image. I can do this with the 5DSR and can do this with the D810 and expect this to be even better with the D810 because of the electronic shutter.

This is an excellent point. I started shooting landscapes exclusively in live view on my canon's and now on the rear LCD instead of the EVF on my Sony. I have poor eyesight and my glasses always seemed to get in the way when using a VF. So LV and/or mirrorless has been a godsend for me but this is a personal/subjective factor.

I do find that many of the Sony screens have a lot of extra junk displayed on them that I do not need. I wish there were a way to customize what indicators are shown. When I first switched to Sony from Canon I made many more setting/technical errors in my shots (e.g. forgetting to turn off IS or leaving the ISO too high). Part of this is due to shooting canon for many years but also I believe due to the simpler UI (e.g. a dedicated switch for IS on the lens instead of having to go into a quick menu on Sony). I'm happy I switched but I do miss the "it just works" nature of my old canons.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #115 on: September 08, 2017, 03:45:20 pm »

Yeh with the abandoned 1 series and the DF disaster, I would not be one jumping into any new line of cameras from Nikon until they become serious.

You probably mean DL? They never shipped them, so nobody was caught having invested in a dead product line, correct?

As far as 1 goes, I do agree. Now, although it may happen, the line isn't discontinued yet.

But really, do you seriously think there is even 1% chance that Nikon would venture in a non strategic mirrorless effort at this point in time? My view is that they won't. They will have spared their customers 2 rounds of half baked products and come up right away with a camera suitable for the most demanding applications with unique lenses. At least this is my guess. ;)

Besides, I believe that Canon will follow suite, but probably one year later (too late?).

Either way, we should all hope this forecast will turn true. Although I love what Sony is doing we don't want to live in a monopoly led world.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 05:40:14 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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hogloff

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #116 on: September 08, 2017, 09:48:30 pm »

You probably mean DL? They never shipped them, so nobody was caught having invested in a dead product line, correct?

As far as 1 goes, I do agree. Now, although it may happen, the line isn't discontinued yet.

But really, do you seriously think there is even 1% chance that Nikon would venture in a non strategic mirrorless effort at this point in time? My view is that they won't. They will have spared their customers 2 rounds of half baked products and come up right away with a camera suitable for the most demanding applications with unique lenses. At least this is my guess. ;)

Besides, I believe that Canon will follow suite, but probably one year later (too late?).

Either way, we should all hope this forecast will turn true. Although I love what Sony is doing we don't want to live in a monopoly led world.

Cheers,
Bernard

Trouble with aiming at the "most demanding...whatever that means" is all the new technologies that need to be available for this to occur need to be perfected which means huge R&D costs which Nikon does not have too much of. The 850 really is built from a bunch of existing tech...nothing really new. That will not be the case for mirrorless...especially if they aim for that "most demanding" market which just happens to be the smallest market compared to the lower level consumer market.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2017, 01:28:01 am »

Nikon has been a profitable company year on year for as long as I remember. They certainly have more cash piled up now than they had when they developped breakthrough products such as the D3, another time when mode internet forum experts had declared then death and buried. ;) So there really is no reason to doubt their ability to invest.

Besides, the 1 series has proven their mastery of on sensor AF, what are they missing really?

I'll tell you, the one and only thing they have been missing is the intention to compete in the mirrorless high end market. Why? Probably because some decision makers in Nikon didn't want to canibalize their DSLR sales... yet... Now that Sony is deservedly eating away big chunks of their market Nikon has no more reasons to hesitate, do they?

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2017, 10:28:53 am »

Nikon has been a profitable company year on year for as long as I remember. They certainly have more cash piled up now than they had when they developped breakthrough products such as the D3, another time when mode internet forum experts had declared then death and buried. ;) So there really is no reason to doubt their ability to invest.

Besides, the 1 series has proven their mastery of on sensor AF, what are they missing really?

I'll tell you, the one and only thing they have been missing is the intention to compete in the mirrorless high end market. Why? Probably because some decision makers in Nikon didn't want to canibalize their DSLR sales... yet... Now that Sony is deservedly eating away big chunks of their market Nikon has no more reasons to hesitate, do they?

Cheers,
Bernard

One very key technology they are dependent on others is the sensor and it will be interesting how eager Sony will be to help Nikon develop a sensor for a mirrorless system that directly competes with their cameras. Right now the sensors all were developed for DSLR systems which might indirectly compete with the Sony cameras...but a "high end" Nikon mirrorless will be direct competition.

This could be Nikon's noose as far as mirrorless capabilities.
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Josh-H

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Re: What next for Canon?
« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2017, 07:53:28 pm »

Nikon has been a profitable company year on year for as long as I remember. They certainly have more cash piled up now than they had when they developped breakthrough products such as the D3, another time when mode internet forum experts had declared then death and buried. ;) So there really is no reason to doubt their ability to invest.

Besides, the 1 series has proven their mastery of on sensor AF, what are they missing really?

I'll tell you, the one and only thing they have been missing is the intention to compete in the mirrorless high end market. Why? Probably because some decision makers in Nikon didn't want to canibalize their DSLR sales... yet... Now that Sony is deservedly eating away big chunks of their market Nikon has no more reasons to hesitate, do they?

Cheers,
Bernard

Im glad I don't hold Nikon shares if thats considered profitable...
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