Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio  (Read 14804 times)

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« on: June 13, 2017, 01:14:56 pm »

Hi folks,

I'm sure you've had to put up with this question a lot but I'm hoping my rather specific niche requirement might let me off asking this question again.  :)

I run a large Reproduction studio for an antiquities museum in Jerusalem. Over the past 5 years we have digitized well over 1 million pages from ancient manuscripts dating back over the past 900 years.

We did use a Leaf Aptus II-8 back on a DF camera but due to ongoing issues with the camera system we changed over to Nikon some years ago with the D800e and lately the D810 and haven't looked back. Our first ever repair on a Nikon has just gone in after 4 years of constant daily use of around 2000 frames a day. The issue is the USB port which had worked loose dropping the tethering. That's the sum total of repairs. Repair within a couple of days. In comparison the DF shutter and/or mirror box would die about twice a year requiring shipping to Denmark for repair.

We are currently looking at a higher resolution solution for our studio for at least one of the copy stations and for use with more precious works which require the additional resolution.

Until recently we had not looked back into medium format solutions due to our previous history with them. The release of two 50 megapixel cameras which are mirrorless is making us rethink our options. No mirror and a far better shutter rating than Mamiya system ever had brings these tools right back into the spotlight. Please note that for various reasons technical cameras are not being considered at this time. Chief among which is price, local availability and a required integration into a specific custom electronic workflow.

Currently we shoot tethered directly into Capture One. Using Live View in C1 for framing, precise manual focus and indeed shooting. With our Nikons we can shoot for hours straight directly from live view in C1. Incredibly useful when working with piles of documents which need to be placed accurately within the frame and photographed without hesitation before moving to the next one. Not a deal breaker though, however useful. We never had this ability with the digital back of course. Another essential element is the use of custom ICC profiles (currently made with our Gretag Colorchecker Digital SG chart). We cannot achieve true accuracy without this ability.

Which ever choice we would use for our higher resolution option would need to include these two abilities. Tethered Live View and ICC profiling. Please note that we will probably not be using native lenses with either option.

Fuji:
Pro's: Cheaper, reliable in country service and parts availability (confirmed today actually).
Con's: Does it do tethered LV at all? Cannot be processed in C1 and LR will not allow 'real' ICC profiling.

Hasselblad:
Pro's: Phocus software allows LV and in depth colour calibration.
Con's: Dealer here has a bad reputation and I personally did not get any feeling of confidence from him, is there any ability to photograph during LV? Has to be sent out of country for service.

A big con for both systems, albeit a temporary one, is that neither has had enough field time to be considered a reliable workhorse within the industry. Like any new system or software or computer, etc. That has to be taken under consideration and we are not 'running' into either solution quite yet.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 01:31:32 pm by Ben Rubinstein »
Logged

scyth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 02:41:13 pm »

Any thoughts...?


how soon P1 dealer appears in this topic to suggest P1's Cultural Heritage gear ?
Logged

scyth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 02:44:45 pm »

The release of two 50 megapixel cameras
why not Canon 5Ds/5Dr - they are 50mp too ... or cheap multi-shot Olympus E-M1 II dSLM (or Pentax too, even it is dSLR, for that matter)?
Logged

Christopher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1499
    • http://www.hauser-photoart.com
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2017, 04:21:20 pm »

Or why settle on 50Mp which is a minor resolution bump compared to the two 100MP systems ?


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Logged
Christopher Hauser
[email=chris@hauser-p

uptownguydenver

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 87
    • Denverphotoscapes
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 06:25:53 pm »

How about looking at the Phase One IQ3 100mp which has an electronic shutter that will give you vibration free shooting and you don't have to worry about the mirror or leaf shutter. The warranty is 5 year without any activation count restrictions. This would give you complete C1 tethering support etc.
Logged
Phase One Certified Professional. Available for Digital-Tech and photo assistant work in the Denver

BobShaw

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2218
    • Aspiration Images
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 07:56:47 pm »

Well Hasselblad is built for reproduction with the built in reproduction profiling mode in Phocus. Colour is also pretty accurate out of the box.
Also the high sync speed and lens shutter means no ambient light or vibration to worry about.

Service wise, how often are expecting to need service on a new camera with no moving parts used inside? Sensor clean perhaps if you don't do it yourself.
I only have an H3DII and have used service twice. Both parts were 8 years old. In both cases I took it to the dealer and they put it in a box and sent it to Sweden. So I don't think the dealer matters that much.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 10:52:13 pm by BobShaw »
Logged
Website - http://AspirationImages.com
Studio and Commercial Photography

scyth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 09:01:41 pm »

How about looking at the Phase One IQ3 100mp which has an electronic shutter that will give you vibration free shooting and you don't have to worry about the mirror or leaf shutter.

it also depends on the light used - may be they run flash... otherwise both dSLRs and dSLMs do electronic shutter as well...
Logged

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 586
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2017, 09:47:45 pm »

GFX tethering with LR is rock solid via a paid 80$ plug in....easy and no problem making color profiles....
LR should be a lot easier and flexible in terms of DAM....C1 is great for tethering but still very limited in terms of DAM....2000 files a day need to be stored and moved.....C1 is not the tool for that....
sounds like the tilt finder of the GFX would come in really handy....or at least the movable rear LCD....even if everything is shot tethered anyway....
the 120 fuji macro is getting amazing reviews everywhere...
the GFX works...now....everybody with the X1D has stories of lock-ups...
the GFX can be run from a permanent power source....don't know about the X1D?
can't imagine sync speed is an issue, pretty sure neither the camera not the objects move....both have electric shutters and i am syncing 1/4000 with broncolor equipment with GFX
fuji pro service in the US has 2 day turnaround and loaners...not sure how that works in other places....
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

scyth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 584
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2017, 10:59:51 pm »

LR should be a lot easier and flexible in terms of DAM....
neither LR nor C1 are enterprise level DAM - they are both simple desktop level software packages...
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 01:27:08 am »

why not Canon 5Ds/5Dr - they are 50mp too ... or cheap multi-shot Olympus E-M1 II dSLM (or Pentax too, even it is dSLR, for that matter)?

The Canon 50 megapixel solution is not sufficient for an upgrade from side to side testing. The files just aren't as robust.
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 01:46:55 am »

how soon P1 dealer appears in this topic to suggest P1's Cultural Heritage gear ?

I wrote CI a long email asking about their repro tech cam solution (the one with electronic shutter) and asking for a trial of the C1 Cultural Heritage software. The automatic cropping alone might have been worth the heart stopping price ($6000). Currently we employ a person in the studio whose only task all day every day is cropping. The National Library here have 6 people doing cropping. That was months ago, still no reply.

In reply to other valuable points made,

We did a trial of the P1 IQ3 100 megapixel back on the latest P1 camera. Had it in the studio for about 4 hours with a team from the dealer. It was buggy. Slow. Wouldn't tether except using USB2 for some reason either on windows or mac (we tried all types of USB/Firewire solutions). The lenses (blue ring Schneider) were not particularly exciting in combination with that back. The tonality was better as well as the resolution but not significantly enough to justify the pricing. That was our conclusion. I'm sure others have reached different conclusions for their specific workflows and that's great! One of the biggest names in our business uses one on an Alpa system and he doesn't settle for anything but the best. For ourselves, our workflow and our testing, we do not consider it either a workhorse solution which justifies its cost to us.

Photographic level DAM is irrelevant to our workflow. Or at least at these levels. We have other software which deals with this momentous task and is tied into our central databases, offsite backups, etc.

We use both flash (profoto) and LED lighting (custom builds), the maximum shutter speed used is 1/125 so sync speeds are not a barrier.

Service wise we would indeed be expecting little needed, hence looking again at MFD solutions.

Why only 50 megapixels? If there were mirrorless options in higher resolution I'd love a 60 megapixel solution for example. 80 is too much for our uses to be honest, it's just not a requirement for our end product. 50 (in MFD) is just enough to justify upgrading a current 36 megapixel system. The 42 megapixels of sony was not sufficient and they've stopped any in house repairs in the country which also stopped us from looking into that solution. Ditto Pentax incidentally. We didn't want a DSLR system anyway but certainly not without a repair centre in country.

We work too fast for multi shot to be an option except in special circumstances. We're shooting some 3000 frames per day with just two stations in our current studio and are looking to significantly enlarge our capabilities. MS is a nice idea but you need the time to be able to do it. The National Library have a Hasselblad MS 50 megapixel back which they use but it has its own station and seems to be rarely actually used.
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 01:51:07 am »

GFX tethering with LR is rock solid via a paid 80$ plug in....easy and no problem making color profiles....
LR should be a lot easier and flexible in terms of DAM....C1 is great for tethering but still very limited in terms of DAM....2000 files a day need to be stored and moved.....C1 is not the tool for that....
sounds like the tilt finder of the GFX would come in really handy....or at least the movable rear LCD....even if everything is shot tethered anyway....
the 120 fuji macro is getting amazing reviews everywhere...
the GFX works...now....everybody with the X1D has stories of lock-ups...
the GFX can be run from a permanent power source....don't know about the X1D?
can't imagine sync speed is an issue, pretty sure neither the camera not the objects move....both have electric shutters and i am syncing 1/4000 with broncolor equipment with GFX
fuji pro service in the US has 2 day turnaround and loaners...not sure how that works in other places....

LR with tethering does not offer live view at all does it? We tested it yesterday with our Nikons. Colour profiles in LR are not accurate enough for our needs. Repro needs a very high level of colour accuracy. A 24 chart profile, even if it was a real ICC profile, is not sufficient. We've tested this extensively. :)

We shoot on copy stands. Viewfinders and screens are not important, live view is. That said, does the finder go out to 90 degrees, i.e. fully vertical? That would be useful on our document copy station perhaps.

You make a good point with the Fuji not having reported problems. It is obvious that I need to do some more research!
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 01:51:32 am »

Thank you to all for your help! Looking forward to more thoughts.
Logged

landscapephoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 623
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 02:00:10 am »

Our first ever repair on a Nikon has just gone in after 4 years of constant daily use of around 2000 frames a day.

That would be about 1.6 millions frames for that camera. Impressive.

A big con for both systems, albeit a temporary one, is that neither has had enough field time to be considered a reliable workhorse within the industry. Like any new system or software or computer, etc. That has to be taken under consideration and we are not 'running' into either solution quite yet.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Yes: maybe you should wait a bit till these cameras are better tested and the present bugs solved. Also: fully electronic camera systems (that is: without mechanical shutter) may be presented by Sony after summer, that could be another interesting option.

This being said the X1D has a definite advantage in that the camera itself does not have a shutter. On the GFX, if the shutter breaks you need to send the camera out for service. On the X1D, you would just exchange the lens.

Also: the X1D and GFX can use the older HC series lenses via an adapter and the HC 120 macro is relatively cheap on the used market (or can be rented easily). That would be a relatively inexpensive backup for the X1D. That might also be a way to spare the GFX focal plane shutter, as it would then use the shutter in the lens (I am not sure about that, but a simple test would show whether the GFX still moves its shutter with a CS lens).
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2017, 02:29:24 am »

That would be about 1.6 millions frames for that camera. Impressive.

Yes: maybe you should wait a bit till these cameras are better tested and the present bugs solved. Also: fully electronic camera systems (that is: without mechanical shutter) may be presented by Sony after summer, that could be another interesting option.

This being said the X1D has a definite advantage in that the camera itself does not have a shutter. On the GFX, if the shutter breaks you need to send the camera out for service. On the X1D, you would just exchange the lens.

Also: the X1D and GFX can use the older HC series lenses via an adapter and the HC 120 macro is relatively cheap on the used market (or can be rented easily). That would be a relatively inexpensive backup for the X1D. That might also be a way to spare the GFX focal plane shutter, as it would then use the shutter in the lens (I am not sure about that, but a simple test would show whether the GFX still moves its shutter with a CS lens).

Not quite, we don't work every day of the year. :) It's still impressive. Using it with a fixed shutter speed of 1/60 (less stress on the shutter) and in live view to spare the mirror box makes a big difference to allowing these cameras to just keep going.

I didn't realise the X1D didn't use a shutter at all. On one hand that means that it will last longer and has no shutter vibration. On the other hand we will need to either mount only leaf shutter lenses or forgo flash usage (is that true?) for this camera.
Logged

Christopher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1499
    • http://www.hauser-photoart.com
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2017, 03:01:41 am »

The X1D has only lead shutter. No electronic one. With the GFX you could use the electronic one and have NO movement at all. (Same as on the IQ3100, but your ruled that out.)


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Logged
Christopher Hauser
[email=chris@hauser-p

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2017, 03:26:55 am »

The X1D has only lead shutter. No electronic one. With the GFX you could use the electronic one and have NO movement at all. (Same as on the IQ3100, but your ruled that out.)


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Thanks, that is an important factor. We had not intended to use native lenses.
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2017, 03:43:16 am »

That would be about 1.6 millions frames for that camera. Impressive.


I haven't tested the broken camera but this is the shutter count from a newer D800e which is still going strong and in daily use. :) The broken one has been in use for about a year longer.

 
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2017, 04:15:22 am »

Something that I hadn't considered, readout speed from these sensors, specifically when using our LED lighting. I've read that the readout speed of the Fuji is 1/4 second which would be problematic with most LED's.  Anyone know if this is the same with the Hasselblad? If using regular FP shutter on the Fuji we can probably expect shutter vibration as we have from our Nikons when using constant lighting (the reason why we have to shoot with LV and the D810 only when using LED's. The D800e doesn't have EFCS).

If I take a photo with EFCS on the nikons at a 1/4 and don't see any banding does that mean our LED's are ok or does that not prove anything about readout?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:22:17 am by Ben Rubinstein »
Logged

yaya

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1254
    • http://yayapro.com
Re: X1D vs GFX 50s - Repro Studio
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2017, 04:59:15 am »

Hi Ben,

Please feel free to contact me on or off line if the iXG is on your radar.

Cheers
Yair
Logged
Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One - Cultural Heritage
e: ysh@phaseone.com |
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up