New profile making software: Lumariver Profile Designer

[torger]

I've just released a new software program for making camera profiles: Lumariver Profile Designer.

Presentation here: http://www.lumariver.com/#LumariverPD
Introduction video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUt3jWs5vTk
User manual here: http://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/
Download here: http://www.lumariver.com/#DownloadLumariverPD

It's the graphical user interface version of my command line tool "DCamProf". It's intended to be easy to use for casual users, but also provide the depth of manual tuning that DCamProf provides, now much easier to operate thanks to the GUI. Still it's unavoidable that the manual stuff is pretty technical, and to ease that aspect I've made a quite beefy user manual with reference docs and tutorials.

It's available for both MacOS and Windows, and comes in three editions. One "Basic" intended for casual users making DNG profiles for Lightroom etc, and one "Pro" for those that also wants to make ICC profiles (including those that works for Capture One) and wants more abilities to customize, and the unlimited "Repro" edition that adds mostly reproduction features like full 3D LUT and multi-target. All features are available in the version provided for download so you can test and toy with it, but you cannot save projects or export profiles unless you purchase a license.

[scyth]

was I first to buy  ?

[torger]

was I first to buy  ?

Actually I was myself the first :-), I made a test buy to see that the Paypal config had worked out. But you were the fastest of the others, thank you :-)

[delfalex]

First impressions - Straight out of the box it works a treat (at last DCP profiles with accurate rendition of reds), best 120 I've spent for years.
Btw
For operational queries do we create new topics, add on to this thread or email/pm?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[torger]

The official support channel for Lumariver software is listed somewhere on the web site, but of course the messages end up in my mailbox as this particular software is a one-man-show (not in developing tone reproduction and tuning defaults though, I've had great help from collaboration with photographers). Anyway, either way is okay. Since I'm only one person it's of course great if the manual is checked for answers first

(We had an own forum on the Lumariver site but it became mess to maintain, constantly attacked by hacking bots etc so I've put that on hold, so email is the only "official" channel currently, but I hang out at this forum too).

[delfalex]

Thanks for confirming - just so this thread remains true to notifications about the software rather than getting bogged down with various arising queries I'll RTFM 1st and pm /new topic separately.

Cheers again for a good bit software (at a very decent price point).

Alex

[Rhossydd]

Just looked at this and it's the first bit of software that I've ever needed to disable anti-virus software to install. (Win 7 with Avast).
You might like to look at that.

[torger]

Just looked at this and it's the first bit of software that I've ever needed to disable anti-virus software to install. (Win 7 with Avast).
You might like to look at that.

Yes I'd like to fix that, but it seems to be very difficult :-/

There's a note about that on the web page. You shouldn't need to disable anti-virus (I think), normally it should just be Windows Smartscreen that complains "Windows Protected your PC", and then you press "more info...", see that the software indeed is sign by our company (Xarepo), and press "Run anyway". The problem is that nowadays it's not enough for Windows that the software is signed, it needs "reputation" which basically means many thousands of installs (I've heard), or you sell it through "Windows Store", which is the direction Microsoft is pushing. The app stores take a hefty 30% distribution fee so it's very good money for Microsoft/Google/Apple to make vendors sell that way. We'll probably go there in the end just like everyone else will, but for now it's still feasible to sell on the side.

(I've found out you can get some "free" reputation points by buying a very expensive signing certificate from Symantec, we're using a standard signing cert. I don't think the free points would have been enough though, but would probably lower the amount of world-wide installs required.)

There should be another way to get rid of the complaint; using "WACK", Windows Application Certification Kit, an analysis software that runs for 20-40 minutes and produces a test result which you then submit to Microsoft which then is supposed to make smartscreen stop complaining. I have put the software through that successfully (which is sort of messy as the installer "Inno Setup" I use doesn't seem to be compatible with the latest WACK so I actually have to sit and watch the whole test run and press buttons when the install software is started). But  then actually getting the result file to Microsoft is pretty messy. I counted to 18 agreements that needs signing and their web page was pretty buggy. At that point I gave up, for the moment.

But yes, I'd really like to get rid of that warning if I just knew how... as this software is pretty niche I don't expect the automatic reputation quota to be filled any time soon. Most other small vendors examples I can come up with have already thousands of installs so they have already the reputation points needed, but I guess there is some way to fix it, I just haven't found out how. Searching the web it seems like Microsoft have changed the policy quite a lot over the last few years so the old guides no longer work. As their OS is hammered by viruses and various malware they have good reason to I guess....

[Rhossydd]

I let Avast send a copy back for checking and it was returned later as no threat. Hopefully if everyone does that Avast will get the message it's no problem.

I've now added the program as an exception for av scanning and it now runs without any warnings.

[kirkt]

Bravo Anders!

Congratulations,

kirk

[sebbe]

Grattis!

I've tested the multitarget and the ICC-process for C1 so far. The manipulating of the tone curve is great. It's much easier than writing json files.
The multitarget function worked great when I started with the IT8.7 and added the CCSG to it. The other way around the program closed when I (or the program) render the result. When I'm on the 2nd target and save the ICC-profile the picture of the first target is showed after that. But with the grid and selection of the 2nd. All other functions seems to work nicely. On a few I'm still not sure what it does exactly (Headroom, LUT optimization with lightness, TRO Variant). Maybe some examples would be nice in the documentation later.

Is there a way to see the results of the ICC in terms of dE of each patch?

I'm heading to Gothenburg tomorrow. Therefore no much time to test more but I will enjoy your country for holidays instead.

Thanks for the great tool.
Sebastian

[torger]

Grattis!

I've tested the multitarget and the ICC-process for C1 so far. The manipulating of the tone curve is great. It's much easier than writing json files.
The multitarget function worked great when I started with the IT8.7 and added the CCSG to it. The other way around the program closed when I (or the program) render the result. When I'm on the 2nd target and save the ICC-profile the picture of the first target is showed after that. But with the grid and selection of the 2nd. All other functions seems to work nicely. On a few I'm still not sure what it does exactly (Headroom, LUT optimization with lightness, TRO Variant). Maybe some examples would be nice in the documentation later.

Is there a way to see the results of the ICC in terms of dE of each patch?

I'm heading to Gothenburg tomorrow. Therefore no much time to test more but I will enjoy your country for holidays instead.

Thanks for the great tool.
Sebastian

If the program closed then it crashed due to some bug. The multi-target aspect is a bit less tested than the other features, I've tested it with a quite simple workflow and obviously based on your report it doesn't cover all cases . I'll dig more into that and iron out the bugs, thanks for reporting.

The Headroom and LUT optimization stuff is described with text in the manual, but I guess it would help with some images.

The headroom especially may be a bit tricky to understand, although the basic principle is simple: if you have a 3D LUT it matters how bright target patches are as you can apply a different correction on a dark patch as on a light patch even if they have the same hue and saturation, and the headroom defines which range the 3D LUT works in. The default is "from image", which is what most will be using most of the time, and it means that the LUT covers the same brigthness range the target in the image covers. This means that if you have a very dark target chart the 3D LUT will only cover dark colors. The idea is however that you expose the target with the same exposure you would use for real images, in a reproduction setup you usually shoot the target in the same space as where you will shoot the actual artwork or objects for reproduction. If you set it to "from reference", the brightness range is specified by the measured reference values, and custom you can set it to any value you want and optionally make the profile scale to match. Those two settings I expect to be used more rarely, but could have an application for like scanners and similar when you want the profile to correct also the exposure.

The "LUT optimization with lightness" preset simply means that the LUT actually considers lightness and corrects it, which is disabled per default for general-purpose, and enabled for reproduction. While in reproduction it is often important that the lightness of colors is correct too, correcting lightness for a general-purpose profile is generally not a good idea. This is not only because lightness correction requires flatfield correction or perfectly even light to make sense, but because you may then make transition into clipping look less nice (which is not a problem for reproduction when you typically don't clip stuff and use no tone curve) and while errors in lightness is easy to spot in an A/B swap comparison, lightness errors are not disturbing when an image is viewed alone, unlike those in chroma/hue.

That said you can do interesting stuff with lightness manipulation in the color adjustments editor, for example by modulating lightness of nearby hues you can introduce "color separation" (for example making yellows lighter than reality and greens darker and then cyan-blues lighter again etc). If doing so it may be wise to fade out the manipulations towards the whitepoint to make the transition to clipping look nice. (Color separation can be enhanced with other methods too, the general principle is to introduce small controlled errors, so the profile still "feels accurate"... the camera color filters also have quite strong effect on that as you really can't make very strong manipulations for nearby colors or you hurt smoothness, so the camera response shines through quite a bit in that aspect.)

To see the colorimetric matching result you need to enable manual optimization mode, and open the Tune LUT dialog. You can use the presets in there so you don't really need to make a manual optimization. I may adjust that in a future version especially for the repro mode as it's not entirely logical that you have to enable "manual" even if you don't intend to do it manually. When designing it originally I was thinking that if you want to know how well it matched, you probably want to make manual adjustments too, and if you do automatic you probably don't really want to look at the colorimetric result but rather just evaluate the profile by eye.

[sebbe]

I'll test the multi-target "crash" later on another computer. Sometimes things crashes because of the system not the program.

Thanks for the details about headroom. I do understand the differences now.

The intention to optimize after checking make sense. I'll have a look into it later.

If the program closed then it crashed due to some bug. The multi-target aspect is a bit less tested than the other features, I've tested it with a quite simple workflow and obviously based on your report it doesn't cover all cases . I'll dig more into that and iron out the bugs, thanks for reporting.

The Headroom and LUT optimization stuff is described with text in the manual, but I guess it would help with some images.

The headroom especially may be a bit tricky to understand, although the basic principle is simple: if you have a 3D LUT it matters how bright target patches are as you can apply a different correction on a dark patch as on a light patch even if they have the same hue and saturation, and the headroom defines which range the 3D LUT works in. The default is "from image", which is what most will be using most of the time, and it means that the LUT covers the same brigthness range the target in the image covers. This means that if you have a very dark target chart the 3D LUT will only cover dark colors. The idea is however that you expose the target with the same exposure you would use for real images, in a reproduction setup you usually shoot the target in the same space as where you will shoot the actual artwork or objects for reproduction. If you set it to "from reference", the brightness range is specified by the measured reference values, and custom you can set it to any value you want and optionally make the profile scale to match. Those two settings I expect to be used more rarely, but could have an application for like scanners and similar when you want the profile to correct also the exposure.

To see the colorimetric matching result you need to enable manual optimization mode, and open the Tune LUT dialog. You can use the presets in there so you don't really need to make a manual optimization. I may adjust that in a future version especially for the repro mode as it's not entirely logical that you have to enable "manual" even if you don't intend to do it manually. When designing it originally I was thinking that if you want to know how well it matched, you probably want to make manual adjustments too, and if you do automatic you probably don't really want to look at the colorimetric result but rather just evaluate the profile by eye.

[parhelic14]

Will Lumariver support HUTCHCOLOR precision scanner
 target in the future?

I know it look like a rectangular one.
But it's not. So many patches is not used, it become an
 odd shape to customize.

Here is an reference file.
http://www.hutchcolor.com/HCT_data_files/F35T/6840-6869.txt.zip
-------------------------------------------------------------------
HCT                  
Reference File   6840-6869      AVERAGED         
                  
BEGIN_CODE                  
MONTH   20               
DAY   06               
YEAR   24               
MEDIA_MANUFACTURER   FUJI               
MEDIA_CODE   RVP               
MEDIA_TYPE   TRANSMISSION               
MEDIA_SIZE   6x7                
END_CODE                  
                  
BEGIN_LAYOUT                  
ROWS_ALPHA   22               
COLUMNS_NUMERIC   29               
PATCHES_ACTIVE   528               
END_LAYOUT                  
                  
BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT                  
SAMPLE_ID   XYZ_X   XYZ_Y   XYZ_Z   LAB_L   LAB_A   LAB_B
END_DATA_FORMAT                  
                  
BEGIN_DATA                  
A01   72.926   74.195   56.488   89.014   2.908   4.803
A15   0.058   0.055   0.036   0.498   0.192   0.181
A16   74.227   75.421   57.304   89.59   3.119   4.951
A29   74.042   75.229   57.173   89.5   3.126   4.931
B01   0.053   0.05   0.033   0.453   0.169   0.167
B02   17.983   7.995   18.043   33.97   70.279   -34.326
B03   24.635   12.574   25.141   42.109   66.786   -34.376
B04   31.93   18.82   31.697   50.466   59.408   -30.772
B05   41.545   28.829   38.992   60.61   47.389   -23.672
B06   55.88   46.927   47.851   74.124   28.365   -11.378
B07   75.177   76.355   57.658   90.023   3.197   5.335
B08   66.187   67.596   19.039   85.803   2.26   52.867
B09   48.128   40.01   21.6   69.457   28.238   19.442
B10   34.963   23.583   20.257   55.657   47.655   -1.65
B11   25.796   14.399   17.933   44.792   60.123   -15.403
B12   18.416   8.657   14.043   35.311   66.764   -22.346
B13   10.859   4.385   7.662   24.903   65.146   -20.03
B14   64.7   59.486   52.741   81.548   17.255   -4.079
B15   64.912   61.519   53.959   82.648   12.987   -3.5
B16   61.877   62   55.071   82.905   4.937   -4.24
B17   65.56   69.37   57.77   86.685   -2.946   -0.535
B18   66.918   71.471   58.498   87.713   -4.356   0.493
B19   65.921   70.721   55.977   87.349   -4.998   2.466
B20   62.873   68.148   41.602   86.079   -6.426   16.834
B21   66.494   70.111   37.246   87.051   -2.44   24.27
B22   69.171   70.918   32.863   87.444   1.716   31.22
B23   65.259   63.39   36.458   83.644   9.488   19.494
B24   59.126   53.537   37.492   78.183   18.811   8.654
B25   62.613   56.66   50.104   79.981   19.255   -3.86
B26   73.961   75.769   58.079   89.752   1.874   4.435
B27   74.642   75.887   57.601   89.806   3.038   5.019
B28   72.833   74.183   55.904   89.008   2.738   5.403
B29   0.048   0.046   0.028   0.411   0.169   0.19
C01   23.334   24.583   16.458   56.66   -1.619   8.446
C02   15.235   6.936   18.912   31.656   64.879   -40.22
C03   20.823   11.355   26.56   40.164   57.868   -40.218
C04   26.967   17.697   33.623   49.11   46.281   -35.999
C05   35.447   28.637   41.563   60.434   28.654   -27.328
C06   48.112   48.136   50.876   74.896   4.746   -13.493
C07   60.661   67.023   57.524   85.513   -9.138   -2.304
C08   53.652   60.739   27.288   82.234   -12.197   31.096
C09   40.976   41.846   27.69   70.738   1.947   10.615
C10   29.922   23.814   25.485   55.881   28.602   -11.219
C11   22.221   13.779   22.023   43.901   48.3   -25.466
C12   16.039   7.856   16.861   33.671   60.839   -32.139
C13   9.547   3.825   8.837   23.077   62.845   -27.593
C14   48.243   36.754   43.594   67.077   38.821   -18.429
C15   44.372   38.296   46.222   68.213   22.964   -19.657
C16   34.195   33.88   46.359   64.839   5.382   -25.636
C17   43.163   48.855   52.685   75.346   -11.304   -14.712
C18   53.361   61.66   56.79   82.728   -15.076   -6.347
C19   47.642   56.901   34.932   80.119   -19.057   15.57
C20   44.417   53.199   19.006   77.989   -18.993   39.467
C21   54.677   60.211   17.088   81.95   -8.36   50.566
C22   64.682   65.329   12.916   84.652   3.852   65.771
C23   49.253   42.255   13.451   71.036   24.514   40.828
C24   38.979   29.023   12.855   60.794   38.682   24.814
C25   41.867   30.993   26.331   62.493   40.271   -1.311
C26   66.812   68.33   56.811   86.169   2.059   -0.437
C27   69.579   71.544   55.137   87.748   1.283   4.037
C28   67.216   69.643   40.963   86.82   0.144   18.931
C29   22.277   23.425   15.116   55.489   -1.408   9.694
D02   8.521   3.993   18.674   23.646   51.815   -53.515
D03   12.284   7.484   26.261   32.879   40.885   -52.264
D04   16.764   12.931   33.328   42.647   26.244   -46.709
D05   23.52   23.003   41.329   55.06   6.071   -36.299
D06   33.752   40.35   50.19   69.703   -17.071   -21.677
D07   46.642   56.381   55.673   79.827   -20.572   -10.185
D08   40.365   51.046   30.629   76.702   -25.579   16.136
D09   28.287   35.763   30.508   66.314   -22.666   -1.582
D10   19.085   19.07   27.555   50.748   3.598   -23.627
D11   13.212   9.775   23.459   37.425   27.447   -39.37
D12   8.921   4.72   17.691   25.91   45.444   -47.421
D13   4.858   1.848   9.027   14.661   52.475   -42.777
D14   36.538   23.328   35.477   55.398   54.052   -27.835
D15   28.059   21.291   37.839   53.242   32.802   -34.829
D16   16.243   15.39   36.926   46.144   8.22   -45.818
D17   26.217   32.642   47.6   63.849   -20.32   -28.804
D18   38.012   49.197   54.25   75.571   -28.102   -16.016
D19   30.687   42.741   24.733   71.374   -35.27   16.817
D20   27.598   38.18   9.643   68.149   -33.224   47.313
D21   44.76   51.003   8.999   76.676   -12.35   64.241
D22   62.358   61.498   7.171   82.645   7.197   81.501
D23   40.817   31.66   5.925   63.05   34.674   53.183
D24   26.885   16.538   4.71   47.668   52.207   32.785
D25   29.215   17.965   15.06   49.449   53.705   -0.579
D26   59.213   56.388   47.979   79.827   11.926   -1.695
D27   56.804   57.993   41.966   80.73   2.197   7.147
D28   55.115   57.9   37.416   80.676   -1.776   13.048
.
.
.
.
S02   0.106   0.073   0.398   0.661   1.445   -6.369
S03   0.375   0.751   0.898   6.783   -14.101   -5.039
S04   1.074   2.861   1.419   19.474   -41.269   9.546
S05   2.265   6.38   1.933   30.342   -56.584   22.679
S06   3.905   10.346   2.308   38.455   -63.019   33.187
S07   7.822   16.298   2.91   47.361   -56.668   43.665
S08   6.797   12.732   0.8   42.357   -44.989   57.967
S09   3.136   7.536   0.606   32.995   -51.59   45.456
S10   1.829   4.7   0.458   25.857   -47.083   35.93
S11   0.78   1.93   0.251   15.111   -33.639   21.318
S12   0.223   0.463   0.099   4.185   -9.02   5.34
S13   0.041   0.039   0.023   0.352   0.146   0.181
S14   1.73   1.293   2.084   11.213   13.549   -11.733
S15   1.319   1.1   2.133   9.779   8.411   -14.663
S16   0.731   0.787   2.209   7.107   -1.115   -19.951
S17   1.309   2.08   2.903   15.886   -18.212   -10.53
S18   1.746   3.129   3.261   20.534   -26.244   -5.099
S19   1.553   2.911   2.241   19.668   -27.528   1.408
S20   1.285   2.463   0.84   17.729   -26.911   14.83
S21   2.369   3.174   0.806   20.702   -12.927   20.564
S22   3.002   3.467   0.765   21.801   -5.718   23.172
S23   2.331   2.394   0.639   17.409   0.478   17.952
S24   1.333   1.001   0.406   8.977   12.255   7.807
S25   1.506   1.141   1.295   10.097   12.422   -5.043
S26   0.468   0.587   0.565   5.3   -3.953   -1.525
S27   0.407   0.541   0.447   4.89   -4.651   -0.005
S28   0.378   0.519   0.416   4.688   -4.949   0.231
T01   23.592   24.733   16.06   56.798   -1.115   9.632
T14   1.717   1.533   1.94   12.806   6.373   -7.619
T15   1.443   1.404   1.988   11.965   2.62   -9.521
T16   0.977   1.158   2.04   10.229   -4.916   -13.012
T17   1.429   2.098   2.413   15.978   -15.079   -6.457
T18   1.72   2.74   2.606   18.949   -20.06   -2.931
T19   1.608   2.612   2.024   18.4   -20.608   1.227
T20   1.439   2.384   1.094   17.365   -20.774   10.216
T21   2.092   2.745   1.043   18.964   -11.368   13.725
T22   2.434   2.892   1.011   19.58   -6.767   15.269
T23   2.079   2.29   0.92   16.919   -2.804   12.103
T24   1.43   1.291   0.711   11.189   5.551   5.884
T25   1.577   1.425   1.427   12.1   5.7   -3.238
T26   0.238   0.339   0.32   3.062   -3.576   -0.758
T27   0.198   0.264   0.225   2.388   -2.308   -0.138
T28   0.163   0.197   0.153   1.78   -1.095   0.173
T29   74.51   75.741   57.715   89.738   3.058   4.784
U01   0.054   0.052   0.03   0.471   0.136   0.247
U14   1.597   1.738   1.673   14.033   -2.028   -2.741
U15   1.505   1.69   1.66   13.756   -3.365   -3.075
U16   1.289   1.59   1.71   13.152   -7.046   -4.64
U17   1.491   1.996   1.801   15.45   -11.042   -1.652
U18   1.592   2.189   1.867   16.431   -12.524   -0.625
U19   1.558   2.148   1.706   16.225   -12.574   0.695
U20   1.467   2.038   1.311   15.666   -12.679   4.337
U21   1.704   2.163   1.282   16.297   -9.045   5.812
U22   1.789   2.185   1.25   16.407   -7.387   6.411
U23   1.712   2.038   1.234   15.662   -6.117   5.34
U24   1.464   1.615   1.125   13.302   -2.567   2.757
U25   1.546   1.701   1.483   13.806   -2.487   -0.972
U26   0.079   0.095   0.092   0.859   -0.532   -0.245
U27   0.075   0.093   0.065   0.842   -0.596   0.221
U28   0.08   0.099   0.052   0.896   -0.646   0.562
U29   0.041   0.04   0.022   0.357   0.121   0.195
V01   73.97   75.297   57.131   89.532   2.839   5.03
V14   23.404   24.644   16.169   56.698   -1.564   9.2
V15   74.869   76.081   57.748   89.897   3.113   5.023
V26   0.052   0.051   0.038   0.465   0.087   0.084
V27   0.043   0.041   0.026   0.366   0.141   0.139
V28   0.042   0.04   0.024   0.36   0.133   0.172
V29   0.043   0.04   0.024   0.366   0.14   0.182
END_DATA      

[torger]

It's a bit unfortunate that many targets for no reason just aren't simple grids . Grid targets can be matched with the custom target function. There is the free-form target function too, but it's only feasible to use for a few spot colors not a whole target.

Anyway I can add more targets. In fact the next patch release will contain CMP DT-8 http://www.cmp-color.fr/DT8.html as I've got all the data I need from its author.

To add a target in the drop-down list of standard targets I require

- the target should be possible to purchase, or as an exception be a legacy target that many still use
- a reference file with full spectrum, unless it's a multi-media scanner target (which you buy with reference file) then just any reference file will do
- a target photo (raw)
- the target dimensions so I can design the grid properly (a flat image is enough, or the target photo if shot flat)

Although LRPD doesn't need full spectrum in the reference files I have as a quality requirement that any target that is embedded in the program should have full spectrum reference files. I make an exception for scanner targets as they are always delivered with their own reference files anyway, and there are usually many different versions of them (different films etc).

What's missing with the HCT is a flat straight on target photo. If you have one that you can send to me I can add it.

[torger]

I'll test the multi-target "crash" later on another computer. Sometimes things crashes because of the system not the program.

I've now confirmed and fixed the one where the wrong target image showed up (next patch release), haven't succeed triggering the other yet but I'll probably do after some fooling around

[parhelic14]

I've included scanned file and reference data.
Thank you.

What's missing with the HCT is a flat straight on target photo. If you have one that you can send to me I can add it.

[sebbe]

I've now confirmed and fixed the one where the wrong target image showed up (next patch release), haven't succeed triggering the other yet but I'll probably do after some fooling around

Great. the crash is not repeatable on the 2nd computer. Therefore, don't look deeper there.
But loading a saved project does bring the message: Invalid JSON data in file "xxx.lrpd". Maybe something to do with the multitarget?

Beside: I love to load a custom tif over profile comparison and see how all changes are directly visible on that picture. Great idea especially when I go into a look.

[torger]

I've included scanned file and reference data.
Thank you.

Great, I'll include that target too in the next patch release.

[torger]

Great. the crash is not repeatable on the 2nd computer. Therefore, don't look deeper there.
But loading a saved project does bring the message: Invalid JSON data in file "xxx.lrpd". Maybe something to do with the multitarget?

Could you send me the .lrpd file that complains on invalid json data? You could pm me or send an email to not clutter the thread too much.