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Author Topic: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)  (Read 36482 times)

BJL

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Nikon D820 (still just a rumor)
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2017, 11:13:00 am »

@Michael Erlewine and @davidgp: life is too short to worry over unsubstantiated rumors and other internet FUD about the specs of unannounced products.

@Bernard Languillier: there seems to be agreement that the comparative quality of the high-end offerings from Canon and Nikon cannot explain the recent market share shift from Nikon to Canon — and this should be no surprise, because sales and revenues are dominated by the far higher volume low- to mid-level offerings, not by the "prestige products". (Just as "Lexus vs Infiniti" debates are no way to understand the bottom lines of Toyota vs Nissan.)  I have little knowledge or interest in that part of the Canon or Nikon product lines, but my guess is that it is down there that one needs to look for explanations.
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D820 (still just a rumor)
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2017, 11:20:37 am »

@Michael Erlewine and @davidgp: life is too short to worry over unsubstantiated rumors and other internet FUD about the specs of unannounced products.

Well, I disagree. I have been around with Nikon since they went digital. And as the advent of a new model approaches, the rumors become increasing more correct, in my experience. This latest one is pretty convincing that they might cannibalize the insides of the D500 and go for high ISO instead of the low. It may not be so, but then again it may be correct. It makes sense, just not for my work. And I need to be aware of what my choices are or may be. 
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2017, 05:57:49 pm »

Where was that rumour published?

If true this would confirm my suspiscion that Nikon doesn't understand why they are successful...

Cheers,
Bernard

kers

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2017, 08:58:44 pm »

... But the one rumor that horrifies me is that they say that the D850 will have the ISO engine of the D500, concentrating on the upper ISOs and not the lower ISOs like the marvelous ISO 64 that is in the D810. If this is true, then the camera would be useless for me and I will have to wait for the Sony 70 Mpx (or whatever) camera rumored to be coming this summer....
This would make no sense.
Nikon has two new camera's dealing with high iso - and they made serious effort to make the 64 asa useful in the d810. The d810 is a succes.
Why make a camera that goes back in time and has less quality at low iso than the d810?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2017, 09:59:11 pm »

This would make no sense.
Nikon has two new camera's dealing with high iso - and they made serious effort to make the 64 asa useful in the d810. The d810 is a succes.
Why make a camera that goes back in time and has less quality at low iso than the d810?

Providing this is true, but I am again doubtful about this story, there would be several possibilities...
- Nikon wasn't able to secure a sensor with the same level of performance?
- They didn't understand that the amazing quality of the D810 at ISO64 was the main reason for its success?
- They had to make this design choice to enable other key features of the D820/D850 or of another camera using this sensor (EVF version,...)?

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2017, 02:10:34 am »

@Michael Erlewine and @davidgp: life is too short to worry over unsubstantiated rumors and other internet FUD about the specs of unannounced products.

I don't worry... But I must confess I enjoy them... I'm a big geek and I love to see how the different companies technological paths will go... And I love the guess part of the rumors...

Even if I was a Nikon user right now, my economy wouldn't allow me to buy the D820 right away... I'm usually buying cameras that are like two or three years in the market... But I like to keep an eye in the market... When I'm not lost around a landscape shooting...

JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2017, 11:22:46 pm »

Providing this is true, but I am again doubtful about this story, there would be several possibilities...
- Nikon wasn't able to secure a sensor with the same level of performance?
- They didn't understand that the amazing quality of the D810 at ISO64 was the main reason for its success?
- They had to make this design choice to enable other key features of the D820/D850 or of another camera using this sensor (EVF version,...)?
Cheers,
Bernard

I agree, but let's wait until reality manifests.

If the Nikon D850 does not have ISO 64 and/or uber-base-ISO capability, then I for one will not buy it. (I love my D810 and will just buy another as a backup.)

However, if the Nikon D850 picks up where the D810 left off, and offers a bigger sensor, better AF, plus the same peerless base ISO excellence, then I will buy it the second it's available.

BJL

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2017, 05:28:21 pm »

I don't worry... But I must confess I enjoy them... I'm a big geek and I love to see how the different companies technological paths will go... And I love the guess part of the rumors...
Oh in that case, carry on!  I too enjoy worry-free speculation—and mine is that Nikon knows very well that the market for its high resolution models like the 8xx series cares about good dynamic range at base ISO speed, and so Nikon is not going to make D5-style trade-offs for the sake of better performance at high ISO speeds. If it adopts some D5 innovations, they will be adjusted accordingly.
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2017, 01:32:23 am »

Oh in that case, carry on!  I too enjoy worry-free speculation—and mine is that Nikon knows very well that the market for its high resolution models like the 8xx series cares about good dynamic range at base ISO speed, and so Nikon is not going to make D5-style trade-offs for the sake of better performance at high ISO speeds. If it adopts some D5 innovations, they will be adjusted accordingly.

That will be my guess too


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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2017, 08:13:14 pm »

Michael;

You'll be glad to read the update: https://nikonrumors.com/2017/06/29/nikon-d810-replacement-expected-to-be-announced-at-the-end-of-july.aspx
  • The camera will be called D820 (D850 is still a possibility)
  • 45-46MP sensor
  • Improved low and high ISO
  • New and improved version of SnapBridge
  • No built-in GPS
  • Tiltable LCD screen
  • Memory card slots: one SD and one XQD
  • AF system from the D5
Will be purchasing this immediately upon an actual, physical materialization. (No more pre-orders.)

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2017, 08:27:53 pm »

Michael;

You'll be glad to read the update: https://nikonrumors.com/2017/06/29/nikon-d810-replacement-expected-to-be-announced-at-the-end-of-july.aspx
  • The camera will be called D820 (D850 is still a possibility)
  • 45-46MP sensor
  • Improved low and high ISO
  • New and improved version of SnapBridge
  • No built-in GPS
  • Tiltable LCD screen
  • Memory card slots: one SD and one XQD
  • AF system from the D5
Will be purchasing this immediately upon an actual, physical materialization. (No more pre-orders.)

I've been following it closely, such as it is. I will pre-order the moment it is available. This is not the path I imagined, but after deciding against both the X1D and the GFX mirrorless MF cameras (not to mention the Pentax K1), i am once again pinning my hopes on Nikon and the excellent D810 and its upgrade.
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Paul2660

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2017, 09:35:15 am »

If it's 46MP is safe to assume it's the same sensor in the A7rII?  For me a bit disappointing.  Sure the AF of the D5s and tilting LCD (finally) are great additions. 

The DR of the Sony 46MP underperforms to the current D810 at least from what I found when I tried it.

1.  Base ISO is fine but not as clean as the D810 @ 64
2.  Higher ISO's are noisy and even mid range ISO 800-1600 were much more noise prone in areas a shadow, no push or very little
3.  White dots and excessive noise when used for longer exposures.  Nikon to their credit fixed the issue on the D810, and fixed it behind the scenes on the D800e.  However Sony never did much to effect this issue and the noise on 30" to 2 minutes is huge.  I will be interested to see
     if Nikon improves on this at all. 

NET to me, from the amazing output of the D810 or D810A, @ 36MP, just a bump to 46 is not really that impressive to me.  But if Nikon improves on the image quality over what Sony did, then it might work out.

Paul Caldwell
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Christopher

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2017, 10:57:40 am »

Well that is Nikon problem. They will probably use the old Sony sensor. I'm 100% sure they can make it even better like they did with the d810, and it will be nice camera.

However, im not surprised that Sony won't sell them there newest innovations....


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jeremyrh

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2017, 11:21:26 am »

Hmm - at what point is the rumour firm enough to sell my D800E, so I get rid of it before the new model impacts the price I can get for it?
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2017, 11:26:13 am »

Hmm - at what point is the rumour firm enough to sell my D800E, so I get rid of it before the new model impacts the price I can get for it?

In this case, I would wait. If the new low ISO is not equal to or better than the D810, I will have serious doubts that I need that camera.
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2017, 11:38:08 am »

If it's 46MP is safe to assume it's the same sensor in the A7rII?  For me a bit disappointing.  Sure the AF of the D5s and tilting LCD (finally) are great additions. 

The DR of the Sony 46MP underperforms to the current D810 at least from what I found when I tried it.

1.  Base ISO is fine but not as clean as the D810 @ 64
2.  Higher ISO's are noisy and even mid range ISO 800-1600 were much more noise prone in areas a shadow, no push or very little
3.  White dots and excessive noise when used for longer exposures.  Nikon to their credit fixed the issue on the D810, and fixed it behind the scenes on the D800e.  However Sony never did much to effect this issue and the noise on 30" to 2 minutes is huge.  I will be interested to see
     if Nikon improves on this at all. 

NET to me, from the amazing output of the D810 or D810A, @ 36MP, just a bump to 46 is not really that impressive to me.  But if Nikon improves on the image quality over what Sony did, then it might work out.

Paul Caldwell


I highly doubt it is the same sensor, for starters A7r II is using a 42 Megapixel sensor, not 46.

Even if it is the same sensor technology, Sony and Nikon can use in very different ways (for example, A7r used the same sensor as D800e with very different end results...) or if we compare D810 and K1, same sensor different results.

About your points:

1- Nikon added the 64 ISO prioritizing for high DR... If they do the same with the D820 they will get better DR than any other manufacturer using the same sensor in a different body.

3- white dots are there, what happens is the Nikon is applying filtering to the RAWs, to clean it, after the image has been taken. Sony also does this in their A7r II but too aggressively, creating the infamous star-eater issue.

Regards,

David




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kers

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2017, 01:55:00 pm »

If they would use the same sensor as in the 100MP cameras but only fullFrame size - i come to 41MP

but then you have a better sensor than the D810
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2017, 02:53:27 pm »



If it's 46MP is safe to assume it's the same sensor in the A7rII?  For me a bit disappointing.  Sure the AF of the D5s and tilting LCD (finally) are great additions. 

The DR of the Sony 46MP underperforms to the current D810 at least from what I found when I tried it.

1.  Base ISO is fine but not as clean as the D810 @ 64
2.  Higher ISO's are noisy and even mid range ISO 800-1600 were much more noise prone in areas a shadow, no push or very little
3.  White dots and excessive noise when used for longer exposures.  Nikon to their credit fixed the issue on the D810, and fixed it behind the scenes on the D800e.  However Sony never did much to effect this issue and the noise on 30" to 2 minutes is huge.  I will be interested to see
     if Nikon improves on this at all. 

NET to me, from the amazing output of the D810 or D810A, @ 36MP, just a bump to 46 is not really that impressive to me.  But if Nikon improves on the image quality over what Sony did, then it might work out.

Paul Caldwell

The actual achievement of the D810 vs A7R II is not so much its low ISO performance but the possibility of working at a real ISO64 gain. When both sensors are given the same exposure (amount of light) they perform substantially equal (less than 1/2 stop gap in DR). It is only when ISO64 can be used on the Nikon (tripod applications for instance), when exposure can be increased for the Nikon and this extra exposure gives a more consistent advantage to the D810.

Anyway, both low and high ISO performance of the 42 Mpx A7R II is still something to be amazed at, making of it an incredibly well balanced sensor. The D810's sensor makes a difference in more specific applications.

Regards

Paul2660

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2017, 03:06:01 pm »

I tried the A7RII early in the life of the camera. I did not find mine to have good higher iso performance. Excessive noise at 800 and beyond. In fact that was the first thing I noticed while using the camera which surprised me since the Sony was using the BSI designed sensor.

Paul Caldwell
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2017, 04:40:49 pm »

For the same ISO and exposure the D810 would have been noisier.

Regards

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