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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 285905 times)

32BT

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #960 on: September 11, 2017, 01:14:35 pm »


- No consensus on globalwarming
   No, not 100% but that will never be the case. It's only 97% of the scientists in that field do agree that global warming is largely anthropogenic.


Do you have the actual source for this claim? (As in: where did those numbers come from and what are they based on?)

Note that i'm not denying your claim, but i know you're a proponent of the scientific method, so let's be a bit scientific about this...
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #961 on: September 11, 2017, 02:26:28 pm »

Tim,

You are asking for the impossible. Science can do it, but it would require an impossible/unpractical investment in a huge number of additional data probes in the oceans and in the atmosphere (besides the money involved, ships and airplanes would also be obstructed). That would also require many more supercomputers to calculate on all that data. Given that some Governments deny science, also reduces any chance of such a system getting built.


That's not true, without the CO2 in the atmosphere our Global temperatures would be much lower, and the amplitudes between day and night would be much higher. Human activity caused (anthropogenic) increases in the Natural CO2 levels will add a few degrees Celsius to the global temperatures. That additional warming will heat up the oceans over time (leading to more powerful hurricanes), and the increased evaporation from the warmer oceans will be taken up by an also warmer atmosphere, thus causing larger amounts of precipitation when it falls. Science has no problem with that, the difficulty in making long term predictions is due to the unknown influence of humanity's response, and because of limitations in available data (past and present).

Predicting exactly when and where it will happen is as difficult as predicting the lottery. The statistics are known, but they only apply to large numbers of samples, not to individual occurrences (which are subject to uncertainty margins, standard deviations). Fortunately for us, hurricane frequencies are low, which does complicate the statistical outcomes. In addition, there are numerous additional factors that influence these weather events (which is not the same as climate change). But some of the trends are clear.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart you can't prove any of what you said.

What is climate science's main purpose from a practical stand point? The way it's presented to the public is that it's suppose to provide data that tells us exactly how to change the weather so we don't have all these inconsistent calamitous weather events. But to do this we have to prove that we can affect AND CONTROL the weather this way and it has not been proven with repeatable lab type studies that we can do this.

How is climate science practical for us? I haven't seen any improvement in the weather and then I've seen the weather improve and then the next year it's different and then on and on and on and on it constantly changes. I haven't seen science affect the weather significantly in my lifetime. The weather has always been the same going back when I was kid during cat 5 hurricane Beulah back in '67. I remember how excited I was when told we wouldn't have school...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Beulah

Couldn't stop it then and we can't stop it now.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #962 on: September 11, 2017, 03:08:00 pm »

Bart you can't prove any of what you said.

What is climate science's main purpose from a practical stand point? The way it's presented to the public is that it's suppose to provide data that tells us exactly how to change the weather so we don't have all these inconsistent calamitous weather events. But to do this we have to prove that we can affect AND CONTROL the weather this way and it has not been proven with repeatable lab type studies that we can do this.

How is climate science practical for us? I haven't seen any improvement in the weather and then I've seen the weather improve and then the next year it's different and then on and on and on and on it constantly changes. I haven't seen science affect the weather significantly in my lifetime. The weather has always been the same going back when I was kid during cat 5 hurricane Beulah back in '67. I remember how excited I was when told we wouldn't have school...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Beulah

Couldn't stop it then and we can't stop it now.

You posit a false end-goal, which is to control the weather. No one has suggested that we can or should. But that's a needlessly high bar. It may be enough to perturb it. So if human activity is causing perturbations to the ecosystem more rapidly than the ecosystem can respond to, we need to know that. And if OUR perturbations are doing things that are bad, then it is self-evident that we can do something about that. If we did something, we can choose to undo it.

The only way we can know that is to study it. I cannot comprehend your attitude that what we're doing is a waste of time because it doesn't change anything. You could say that about everything. No point studying what's going in the microscopic world, we can't do anything about it. Turns out though we can develop anti-biotics and save millions of lives. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude here, but your comments make no sense to me. There's something we need to understand, so we take steps to understand it. That pretty much describes ALL human progress. In what way is that a waste of time? And how can you posit beforehand that it is a waste of time? That flies against all of human history.

Pretty much everything you enjoy in your life is because someone tried to understand something.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #963 on: September 11, 2017, 04:10:07 pm »

This is a very good perspective about why things turned out not to be catastrophic for Florida:  http://wapo.st/2y0p1kS?tid=ss_mail&utm_term=.2ed572917921  The early warnings to evacuate were warranted as some slight shifts in path would have been very dangerous for those staying in place.  Still half the state is without power and some areas will take weeks to get back up and running.  This is also a state that received Department of Energy money to harden the grid.  The states cannot do this alone.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #964 on: September 11, 2017, 04:42:33 pm »

Do you have the actual source for this claim? (As in: where did those numbers come from and what are they based on?)

Note that i'm not denying your claim, but i know you're a proponent of the scientific method, so let's be a bit scientific about this...

Hi Oscar,

Yes, and yes. It's always useful to go to the source and make a judgment of its actual claims (even if it takes time to digest the info).

Consensus on consensus: a synthesis of consensus estimates on human-caused global warming
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048002
Quote
Abstract

The consensus that humans are causing recent global warming is shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists according to six independent studies by co-authors of this paper. Those results are consistent with the 97% consensus reported by Cook et al (Environ. Res. Lett. 8 024024) based on 11 944 abstracts of research papers, of which 4014 took a position on the cause of recent global warming. A survey of authors of those papers (N = 2412 papers) also supported a 97% consensus. Tol (2016 Environ. Res. Lett. 11 048001) comes to a different conclusion using results from surveys of non-experts such as economic geologists and a self-selected group of those who reject the consensus. We demonstrate that this outcome is not unexpected because the level of consensus correlates with expertise in climate science. At one point, Tol also reduces the apparent consensus by assuming that abstracts that do not explicitly state the cause of global warming ('no position') represent non-endorsement, an approach that if applied elsewhere would reject consensus on well-established theories such as plate tectonics. We examine the available studies and conclude that the finding of 97% consensus in published climate research is robust and consistent with other surveys of climate scientists and peer-reviewed studies.

A PDF of the article is available on the linked web-page.


Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #965 on: September 11, 2017, 06:49:49 pm »

In other words, there is a 90-100% consensus among those who believe in the new religion of climate change? Wow! Who would have thought? Who are the 3% infidels?

texshooter

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #966 on: September 11, 2017, 07:32:04 pm »



Skeptics of anthropogenic climate catastrophism are the new racists. It's time to ban their hate speech.

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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #967 on: September 11, 2017, 07:35:02 pm »

In other words, there is a 90-100% consensus among those who believe in the new religion of climate change? Wow! Who would have thought? Who are the 3% infidels?
No. There is a 90-100% consensus among those who believe in Science.
If the studies didn't include only scientists, I would be tempted to suggest that the 3% are represented by the climat change deniers who post to this thread, but none of them are scientists, so I won't suggest that.   ;)
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #968 on: September 11, 2017, 07:37:23 pm »


Skeptics of anthropogenic climate catastrophism are the new racists. It's time to ban their hate speech.

No, they have the right of free speech, just as do the flat-earthers and those who don't believe in gravity.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #969 on: September 11, 2017, 07:48:59 pm »

No, they have the right of free speech, just as do the flat-earthers and those who don't believe in gravity.

Correct, they have the right of free speech, but Russel's Teapot analogy still applies. Freedom comes with responsibilities.

So far only (Climate) scientists have come up with robust (after peer review and multiple citations in other respected papers) proof for their findings.

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #970 on: September 11, 2017, 07:54:07 pm »

No. There is a 90-100% consensus among those who believe in Science...

Not so fast, Eric. Apparently, "abstracts that do not explicitly state the cause of global warming ('no position')" are counted as supporting the climate religious fanatics. Also, it counts "published" articles, without taking into account the probability to be published by those who are sceptical (the probability approaching a snowball chance in hell). Given that grants are predominantly (97%?) provided to those who, if they want to continue to be funded, will support it. Scientists are human, thus suffering from the herd mentality just like the rest of us.

texshooter

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #971 on: September 11, 2017, 08:14:15 pm »


Scientific consensus is never wrong. Except when it is.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:47:24 am by texshooter »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #972 on: September 11, 2017, 09:02:27 pm »


Scientific consensus is never wrong.

Scientific?

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #973 on: September 11, 2017, 09:25:52 pm »

Scientific?

Apparently, in Bart's world, scientific is only the last 24 hours ;)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #974 on: September 11, 2017, 09:43:42 pm »

Apparently, in Bart's world, scientific is only the last 24 hours ;)

???

Care to elaborate?

BTW if you are suggesting that e.g. Galileo Galilei's (the "father of the scientific method") Geocentric ideas were not shared by his fellow 'scientists' of those days, then you're wrong. It was the church that rejected his proof (because it didn't suit their dogmas), and his ideas were supported by his peers.

Cheers,
Bart
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #975 on: September 11, 2017, 11:10:49 pm »

You posit a false end-goal, which is to control the weather.

Why are we concerned about the weather? Why are we concerned about CO2 affecting the weather? Tell us after reducing CO2 at what point and with what indicators will it change the weather for the better.

How is that a false end goal? Just because you said so?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #976 on: September 11, 2017, 11:47:24 pm »

...BTW if you are suggesting that e.g. Galileo Galilei's (the "father of the scientific method") Geocentric ideas were not shared by his fellow 'scientists' of those days, then you're wrong. It was the church that rejected his proof (because it didn't suit their dogmas), and his ideas were supported by his peers..

Assuming that is true, how many of his supporters dared to go against the church, which provided both the carrot (financing) and stick (inquisition)? Exactly the same as today. The church of political correctness provides financing to reward and excommunication for the infidels.

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #977 on: September 12, 2017, 12:49:29 am »

No. There is a 90-100% consensus among those who believe in Science.
If the studies didn't include only scientists, I would be tempted to suggest that the 3% are represented by the climat change deniers who post to this thread, but none of them are scientists, so I won't suggest that.   ;)

No, Eric, there's probably a 90-100% consensus among those who whose jobs and continued research in the field of climatology are dependent on government funding being maintained. Such government funding can be maintained by maintaining an alarm about CO2.

Scientists can also behave politically and wear two hats. If you dig deeper into the claimed consensus you will also find that the 97% figure includes all those who believe that mankind's activities in total have at least some effect on climate and that CO2 emissions are just a part of that total effect. Even I accept that.  ;)

The subject of climate change is so complex and chaotic, and involves such long time-spans, it is beyond the scope of the most rigorous procedures of the scientific methodology of verification through repeated testing, creation of models in the laboratories which accurately represent the circumstances under investigation, and the creation of experiments designed to falsify a particular hypothesis.

Richard Lindzen, Professor of Atmospheric Sciences at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has written the following pertinent comment:

“The notion of a static, unchanging climate is foreign to the history of the Earth or any other planet with a fluid envelope. Such hysteria (over global warming) simply represents the scientific illiteracy of much of the public, and the susceptibility of the public to the substitution of repetition for truth.”
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #978 on: September 12, 2017, 01:01:29 am »

But there would be no Global Warming either !  There are those who deny that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, that's why it's, unfortunately, necessary to illustrate its capacity to increase global temperature. Science has known this for a long time.

Cheers,
Bart

Of course CO2 is a greenhouse gas, Bart. Farmers have been increasing crop yields for many decades by injecting CO2 into their greenhouses to increase crop yields.  ;)

The earth's atmosphere can be viewed as a gigantic greenhouse. This 'wonderous greenhouse for spaceship Earth' is totally dependent on greenhouse gases to function. No greenhouse gas means no life. Without the 'so-called' greenhouse gases, the average temperature of the Earth's surface would fall significantly below freezing point. All the oceans would be covered in ice, except during the occasional volcanic eruption from the sea floor.

By far the most significant greenhouse gas is water vapor with its associated clouds containing water droplets and sometimes particles of ice. Whilst CO2 plays an absolutely essential role, because without CO2 there would be no life as we know it, about 75% of the total greenhouse effect is due to water vapor, clouds and water droplets.

Of course, the alarmists will claim, as increases in CO2 initially cause a slight warming, more evaporation of water will occur and this in turn will cause a positive feed-back resulting in yet more warming (because water vapor is a greenhouse gas), and this in turn will cause more evaporation and further warming until we reach a stage of CAGW (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming).

What this alarmist scenario ignores, is the negative feed-back from increased water vapor, which is an undeniable fact, but is impossible to accurately quantify because of the enormous complexity and great variability of water vapor concentrations in the atmosphere and because of the imprecision of the predictions of changes in weather events that occur continuously on a daily basis.

The initial process of water evaporation produces a cooling effect. (Everyone knows that, don't they? It's why sweating helps to keep us cool.  ;) )
The latent heat in the water vapor tends to be carried upwards from the Earth's surface into the atmosphere.  When the water vapor later condenses to form clouds and water droplets, the heat is released and will most probably be carried away by winds and convection processes. Some of the heat will be radiated to outer space. Some will be radiated back to the Earth's surface. What proportion is impossible to calculate.

Also, as more clouds form, due to more evaporation, due to a slight warming from increased CO2 levels, more heat from the sun is reflected back to space from the upper surfaces of the clouds. This is known as the albedo effect. Imagine how cool it would become in the Sahara Desert if the sky became covered with clouds.

The bottom line is, CO2, Water Vapor and Warmth are essential ingredients for humanity to flourish. If we accept that and exploit the benefits of increased precipitation and increased CO2, by increasing food production, irrigating the deserts, planting new forests and so on, we shall continue to flourish.

On the other hand, if we kid ourselves that we can control the climate and make it benign for our purposes, by simply reducing our CO2 emissions, and if we continue to develop cities and suburbs as we have done in the past, without regard to the history of extreme weather events in the area, then we will continue to suffer disaster after disaster.

We have to realize and admit to ourselves that we have got ourselves into a fix, not by releasing CO2 from fossil fuels, but by building inadequate infrastructures in cities and suburbs, in locations that have a history of extreme weather events unrelated to current CO2 levels.

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texshooter

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #979 on: September 12, 2017, 01:06:03 am »



While the world debates whether Trump caused the latest hurricane, we slowly poison ourselves to death with toxic water.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/09/06/world-tap-water-plastic_a_23199390/

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