Pages: 1 ... 18 19 [20] 21 22 ... 72   Go Down

Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 289203 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #380 on: June 18, 2017, 11:37:45 am »

If I was European, I wouldn't increase spending for defense either.  Let the Americans spend their money.

That behavior is called projection, and it tells a lot about you.

We, Europeans (a pretty diverse bunch), intend to do both, increase spending on the military (as agreed in 2014), and prevent a humanitarian disaster and suffering by improving conditions in the home countries of the migrants, and addressing global warming is a part of that. Global warming also has a military component, so the two go hand in hand.

Food shortages and mass migration (e.g. towards the cities) is also a prospect for the USA, so think twice (but don't take too long, because the negative changes can become irreversible pretty soon). And I'm not sure we will be able to help the USA when we're too busy with managing our local issues.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5338
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #381 on: June 18, 2017, 01:09:07 pm »

Sounds like the Germans are looking for an excuse not to pay the NATO 2% for defense.

Alan, Marshall Plan and NATO defense are two different things.

Quote
The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP) was an American initiative to aid Western Europe, in which the United States gave over $13 billion[1] (approximately $130 billion in current dollar value as of June 2016) in economic support to help rebuild Western European economies after the end of World War II. The plan was in operation for four years beginning April 8, 1948. The goals of the United States were to rebuild war-devastated regions, remove trade barriers, modernize industry, make Europe prosperous once more, and prevent the spread of communism. The Marshall Plan required a lessening of interstate barriers, a dropping of many regulations, and encouraged an increase in productivity, labour union membership, as well as the adoption of modern business procedures.

This time, the "new Marshall Plan" is meant to help Africa, and thus also Europe. Indirectly also to prevent influx of African refugees even to North America.
Budgeting 2% both for for NATO defense and another 2% for the suggested Marshall Plan is manageable. Ignoring the African crisis would be shortsighted and harmful to the whole world.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #382 on: June 18, 2017, 09:50:13 pm »

Fortunately you're not European ;)
Fortunately, you're not American.  ;)

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #383 on: June 18, 2017, 10:05:50 pm »

That behavior is called projection, and it tells a lot about you.

We, Europeans (a pretty diverse bunch), intend to do both, increase spending on the military (as agreed in 2014), and prevent a humanitarian disaster and suffering by improving conditions in the home countries of the migrants, and addressing global warming is a part of that. Global warming also has a military component, so the two go hand in hand.

Food shortages and mass migration (e.g. towards the cities) is also a prospect for the USA, so think twice (but don't take too long, because the negative changes can become irreversible pretty soon). And I'm not sure we will be able to help the USA when we're too busy with managing our local issues.

Cheers,
Bart
Those things will surely help.  It's about time.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #384 on: June 18, 2017, 10:14:48 pm »

Alan, Marshall Plan and NATO defense are two different things.

This time, the "new Marshall Plan" is meant to help Africa, and thus also Europe. Indirectly also to prevent influx of African refugees even to North America.
Budgeting 2% both for for NATO defense and another 2% for the suggested Marshall Plan is manageable. Ignoring the African crisis would be shortsighted and harmful to the whole world.
Both Europe and America have been providing aid for years to Africa.  Unfortunately most of it is stolen by the politicians there. Africa is a basket case left over from European colonialism.  Also, the crazy border of the nations in the Middle East created at the end of WWI when European colonialism collapsed there also has created much of its political problems.    Europe should be contributing a lot more since it created these problems.  America didn't have any colonies in Africa or the Middle East. 

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #385 on: June 18, 2017, 10:15:14 pm »

PS.  I hope every had a nice Father's Day today. 

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #386 on: June 19, 2017, 02:17:53 am »

Fortunately, you're not American.  ;)
Well, you said "If I was an European" and then followed up with some crazy advice, I never said "If I was an American", so I find your "joke" pretty lame 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 09:54:39 am by pegelli »
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #387 on: June 19, 2017, 02:50:43 am »

   Europe should be contributing a lot more since it created these problems.  America didn't have any colonies in Africa or the Middle East.
Please stop whining, the US has benefitted greatly from the middle east oil so there is no case for complaint. Same with Africa, again the US benefitted greatly. Where do you think the term "African American" comes from? And for Africa the total amount of European aid to Africa is more then double that of the US, so Europe contributes more then 4 times the US per capita. So you're "demanding" something that's already in place, which by looking at the historical benefits might not even be fair.
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #388 on: June 19, 2017, 11:44:49 am »

Please stop whining, the US has benefitted greatly from the middle east oil so there is no case for complaint. Same with Africa, again the US benefitted greatly. Where do you think the term "African American" comes from? And for Africa the total amount of European aid to Africa is more then double that of the US, so Europe contributes more then 4 times the US per capita. So you're "demanding" something that's already in place, which by looking at the historical benefits might not even be fair.
Most of the European money is provided to keep migrants and refugees in Africa and the Middle East to stop them from fleeing to Europe.  Or to send them back. 
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/578196/EU-plans-fears-African-Countries
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/746840/European-Union-EU-foreign-aid-Africa-Middle-East-Brexit

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #389 on: June 19, 2017, 11:54:34 am »

Most of the European money is provided to keep migrants and refugees in Africa and the Middle East to stop them from fleeing to Europe.  Or to send them back. 
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/578196/EU-plans-fears-African-Countries
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/746840/European-Union-EU-foreign-aid-Africa-Middle-East-Brexit
Don't believe this UKIP propaganda, think for yourself and look further then the end of your nose. Also the financial data I mention are from the 2014 -2015 averages, so before these additional crisis funds (which are very small compared to the total aid provided).
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:22:41 pm by pegelli »
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #390 on: June 19, 2017, 12:56:04 pm »

Don't believe this UKIP propaganda, think for yourself and look further then the end of your nose. Also the financial data I mention are from the 2014 -2015 averages, so before these additional crisis funds (which are very small compared to the total aid provided).
Why do you believe America's Democrat party propaganda and the media bias from the Washington Post NY Times, CNN, etc?  You really need to get other viewpoints.  I can't be expected to do that all by myself. :)

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #391 on: June 19, 2017, 01:12:22 pm »

Why do you believe America's Democrat party propaganda and the media bias from the Washington Post NY Times, CNN, etc?  You really need to get other viewpoints.  I can't be expected to do that all by myself. :)
Alan, sorry, I don't. I read the press from both sides and then make up my own mind. Something I can advise for you as well, it's very refreshing to think for yourself and not only believe the Trump favourite fake news.
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

Tim Lookingbill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2436
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #392 on: June 19, 2017, 01:44:14 pm »

Ok, I need an expert here at interpreting weather activity that doesn't make sense with regard to Climate Change claims.

Can someone explain why the same air masses sourced from the ice caps that drive cold fronts can be so cold that it makes it snow in spring in the US this year, but that same air isn't cold enough to prevent the ice caps from melting?
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #393 on: June 19, 2017, 04:11:11 pm »

Ok, I need an expert here at interpreting weather activity that doesn't make sense with regard to Climate Change claims.

Can someone explain why the same air masses sourced from the ice caps that drive cold fronts can be so cold that it makes it snow in spring in the US this year, but that same air isn't cold enough to prevent the ice caps from melting?
Tim,  I'm not a climatologist.   But I believe that because snow is created at high altitudes where it is very cold.   -34 F  where jets fly or less even in warmer weather.   

one iota

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #394 on: June 19, 2017, 07:56:06 pm »

True (scientific) skepticism is characterized by the scientist firstly being skeptical of its own findings and then those of others. The proponent of this thread has failed the first test (that of being a scientist) and the second test (not being skeptical of his own views) and thirdly, not being a scientist feeling qualified to pit his unqualified opinion against those who have worked to satisfy the first three requirements (guilty of hubris). Heis of course from Queensland where coal is King.
Logged
Mahn England

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #395 on: June 19, 2017, 11:13:37 pm »

True (scientific) skepticism is characterized by the scientist firstly being skeptical of its own findings and then those of others. The proponent of this thread has failed the first test (that of being a scientist) and the second test (not being skeptical of his own views) and thirdly, not being a scientist feeling qualified to pit his unqualified opinion against those who have worked to satisfy the first three requirements (guilty of hubris). Heis of course from Queensland where coal is King.
Did you ever get bad advice from a doctor?  I have.  Many times.  You don't have to be a scientist to be a skeptic.  Doctors and scientists are human and make mistakes and are often wrong.  Even whole herds of them. 

Tim Lookingbill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2436
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #396 on: June 20, 2017, 06:21:35 am »

Tim,  I'm not a climatologist.   But I believe that because snow is created at high altitudes where it is very cold.   -34 F  where jets fly or less even in warmer weather.   

Then it should melt when it hits the ground in the US and that isn't happening from what I've seen on the news of skiers out in the snow having fun in the spring weather and the ice caps are melting in much colder environments that are not at the same altitude that jets fly. What the hell is the melting point of ice up at the north pole?

But thanks for making me think about the altitude temperatures in order to  be more clear on my points. BTW we're still getting cold fronts in the middle of June. It's just Oklahoma and Dallas areas are getting the rain from it while it peters out by the time the front reaches Austin, Tx.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:29:01 am by Tim Lookingbill »
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #397 on: June 20, 2017, 07:56:04 am »

Maybe this is the reason. 
https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/snow/science/formation.html

. If the ground temperature is at or below freezing, the snow will reach the ground. However, the snow can still reach the ground when the ground temperature is above freezing if the conditions are just right. In this case, snowflakes will begin to melt as they reach this higher temperature layer; the melting creates evaporative cooling which cools the air immediately around the snowflake. This cooling retards melting. As a general rule, though, snow will not form if the ground temperature is at least 5 degrees Celsius (41 degrees Fahrenheit).

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #398 on: June 20, 2017, 10:48:57 am »

Ok, I need an expert here at interpreting weather activity that doesn't make sense with regard to Climate Change claims.

Can someone explain why the same air masses sourced from the ice caps that drive cold fronts can be so cold that it makes it snow in spring in the US this year, but that same air isn't cold enough to prevent the ice caps from melting?

Not claiming to be an expert, but this is my take on it.

First, a climate is not weather. Weather can be very local and changes a lot due to wind directions in various stacked layers of air (and the proximity of e.g. lakes or arid areas). A weather prognosis can be made a few days ahead with reasonable precision.

Second, a climate is often averaged over a longer period for a given location, to average out the fluctuations. An 11-year cycle that coincides with Solar activity is not uncommon, but then one has to wait for a long time to (in retrospect) sayy something about the previous period. That's why it takes some time for a trend break to be noticed.

A change in climate can lead to larger fluctuations in local weather, e.g. higher low value and higher high values are an indication of an upward trend.

So, one would have to study the specifics for the weather event you described. It would take a large number of such weather events to detect a trend. When there are few such events, or when the measurement conditions have changed, the scientific community says that the confidence level is low, even if there is a very clear trend. Yet the predictions can be labeled as very likely (or labeled differently, depending on the trend in the sparse data).

Do note that urbanized locations create their own weather, by radiating more heat after the sun heats the infrastructure. If the conditions are right, and moist air with the right amount of condensation cores (often pollution or other aerosols) is rising (several times) into a colder layer of air it can grow into snow, or hail, or sleet, depending on whether the falling ice can reach the ground. Wind speeds higher in the atmosphere, and their directions will determine where it will fall.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. If urbanization grows faster than areas populated by plants/trees/etc. then the cooling effect of evaporating water at ground level is overtaken by the emission of infrastructure heat. That too will create a trend of rising average temperatures and increased activity in weather systems, but that doesn't mean it will snow less. There are increasing numbers of buildings (newly built or overhauled) with white or light colored roofs, to contribute to a reduced influence on city weather.
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Tim Lookingbill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2436
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #399 on: June 20, 2017, 05:40:30 pm »

Thanks, Alan and Bart, for the understandable explanation.

Not to be argumentative since you both aren't climate/weather specialists but I couldn't help but note that there are a lot of what if's and the use of the word trending to explain the difference between climate vs weather.

I still don't think I got an explanation on the basic fact that cold fronts seem to be much colder when they reach warmer places like the US but not cold enough to prevent ice caps from melting which doesn't have urban sprawl and buildings to increase heat.

It still doesn't look like science to me.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 18 19 [20] 21 22 ... 72   Go Up