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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 288174 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #340 on: June 12, 2017, 10:38:22 pm »

The purpose of life is easy.  It's to live.
Phil, what made you say that now?  In any case, it sounds very limiting.  So we're like a bunch of atoms floating in and then floating out a bunch of years later.  No consequence, no purpose, no effect, no hope, no meaning, no nothing.  How very empty. We're here, the entire universe is here, for nothing.   But I don't believe that.  Everyone, you me everyone, has purpose more than just living like an ant or cow.  I found reading Ecclesiastes helped me put a focus on this.

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #341 on: June 13, 2017, 12:39:08 am »

How is living nothing?  What a mundane, boring, pointless life you must lead if you feel that.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #342 on: June 13, 2017, 12:45:51 am »

How is living nothing?  What a mundane, boring, pointless life you must lead if you feel that.
You misread my post.  I'm saying the opposite.

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #343 on: June 13, 2017, 01:19:10 am »

Not at all.  I said the purpose of life is to live and then you said, "In any case, it sounds very limiting.  So we're like a bunch of atoms floating in and then floating out a bunch of years later.  No consequence, no purpose, no effect, no hope, no meaning, no nothing.  How very empty. We're here, the entire universe is here, for nothing."

Which is saying there's more to life than living, but I'm telling you that living has consequences, purpose, effect, hope, meaning, and more.  If you don't find that, then your life must be very mundane and boring and pointless.
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Phil Brown

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #344 on: June 13, 2017, 02:41:38 am »

To claim 'The purpose of life is easy. It's to live', is an obvious and fundamental condition of all life, including the most primitive bacteria, and all animals and plants.

What distinguishes humans from all those other forms of life, is that we can articulate such ideas and observe that there is a common fundamental characteristic that all living creatures and plants share, which is an inbuilt or instinctual drive to reproduce. That's how we distinguish between animate and inanimate.

However, within that fundamental purpose of living, and keeping ourselves alive by eating when we are hungry, there are lots of additional purposes, such as feeding our ego and sense of vanity by gaining great wealth and power over others, or helping others through a sense of compassion, or using our talents to increase the scientific understanding of the world in which we live, in order to provide the opportunity for greater control over our environment and circumstances, and greater security, and so on.

I sympathise with the environmentalists concern about pollution in any form, and I have no objection to research and investment in sustainable and alternative sources of energy. I'm very impressed with the potential of solar power, and I would rejoice if scientists were to succeed in developing an inexpensive, durable, lightweight and efficient type of battery which did not rely upon relatively rare elements such as Lithium which would become scarcer and more expensive if the production of electric cars were to take off.

My only objection is the misrepresentation of CO2 as both a pollutant and a major driving force of climate change.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #345 on: June 13, 2017, 07:52:33 am »

Not at all.  I said the purpose of life is to live and then you said, "In any case, it sounds very limiting.  So we're like a bunch of atoms floating in and then floating out a bunch of years later.  No consequence, no purpose, no effect, no hope, no meaning, no nothing.  How very empty. We're here, the entire universe is here, for nothing."

Which is saying there's more to life than living, but I'm telling you that living has consequences, purpose, effect, hope, meaning, and more.  If you don't find that, then your life must be very mundane and boring and pointless.
I think we're agreeing just coming at it from different directions.  I'm thinking along the lines of a mid-life crisis or Solomon's thoughts in Ecclesiastes, where all the things you've done and accomplished are great, children, career, etc.  But they feel like it's not enough, they only feed our egos, that there's something missing, that it's all, "Vanity, only vanity".  It's the spiritual side that may be missing, a relationship with a God of our understanding that gives ultimate purpose to living.
 
Psalm 103:15-16
As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourishes. When the wind has passed over it, it is no more, And its place acknowledges it no longer.

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #346 on: June 13, 2017, 06:02:09 pm »

We definitely do not agree.  I don't need an emotional crutch to have meaning in my life.
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Phil Brown

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #347 on: June 14, 2017, 02:11:03 am »

We definitely do not agree.  I don't need an emotional crutch to have meaning in my life.

What! So I take it you do not drink wine or any alcoholic beverages, do not indulge in tasty food like ice cream simply because it's tasty, do not watch sports or participate in sports for the adrenalin kick, and so on. Very impressive!  ;D
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #348 on: June 14, 2017, 08:56:24 pm »

Those are not emotional crutches.  You do have an issue with definitions :-)
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Phil Brown

LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #349 on: June 15, 2017, 12:54:01 am »

Good article by David Suzuki

Quote
In withdrawing from the Paris Agreement, U.S. President Donald Trump demonstrated monumental ignorance about climate change and the agreement itself. As Vox energy and climate writer David Roberts noted about Trump's announcement, "It is a remarkable address, in its own way, in that virtually every passage contains something false or misleading."

From absurd claims that the voluntary agreement will impose "draconian financial and economic burdens" on the U.S. to petty, irrational fears that it confers advantages to other countries to the misguided notion that it can and should be renegotiated, Trump is either misinformed or lying.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/david-suzuki/donald-trump-paris-agreement_b_17081692.html
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #350 on: June 15, 2017, 05:01:44 am »

Those are not emotional crutches.  You do have an issue with definitions :-)

Not that I'm aware of. The term emotional crutch is a figure of speech which refers to a psychological state of dependency. Is that not correct?

For example, my understanding is that around 2/3rds of the populations in many Western countries are overweight or obese because food has become an emotional crutch. Losing weight by simply eating less and/or fasting for a couple of days every week seems to be too difficult, emotionally. If food, in those circumstances, doesn't fit the description of an emotional crutch, how would you better describe it?

The same applies to alcohol or any addictive drug. An emotional crutch is an emotional dependence. That's my understanding of the definition.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #351 on: June 15, 2017, 06:36:51 am »

Not that I'm aware of. The term emotional crutch is a figure of speech which refers to a psychological state of dependency. Is that not correct?

For example, my understanding is that around 2/3rds of the populations in many Western countries are overweight or obese because food has become an emotional crutch.
Losing weight by simply eating less and/or fasting for a couple of days every week seems to be too difficult, emotionally. If food, in those circumstances, doesn't fit the description of an emotional crutch, how would you better describe it?

The same applies to alcohol or any addictive drug. An emotional crutch is an emotional dependence. That's my understanding of the definition.

Losing weight by eating less of the typical Western diet or by fasting is indeed difficult for most people. Losing weight by switching to plant-based non-processed food is much easier (and healthier).
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #352 on: June 15, 2017, 10:23:18 am »

Losing weight by eating less of the typical Western diet or by fasting is indeed difficult for most people. Losing weight by switching to plant-based non-processed food is much easier (and healthier).

I'd certainly agree that it is healthier, provided you make sure you don't suffer from a deficiency of vitamin B12, but I'm not sure it's easier. Specialised diets, even though healthy, have a reputation of being unsuccessful in the long run because people often find it difficult to stick with them. They seem to have a yearning for tasty fats, sugars and spices which often gets the better of them.
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #353 on: June 15, 2017, 06:12:45 pm »

Not that I'm aware of. The term emotional crutch is a figure of speech which refers to a psychological state of dependency. Is that not correct?

For example, my understanding is that around 2/3rds of the populations in many Western countries are overweight or obese because food has become an emotional crutch. Losing weight by simply eating less and/or fasting for a couple of days every week seems to be too difficult, emotionally. If food, in those circumstances, doesn't fit the description of an emotional crutch, how would you better describe it?

The same applies to alcohol or any addictive drug. An emotional crutch is an emotional dependence. That's my understanding of the definition.

Big difference between a dependence and an indulgence or enjoyment.  You can enjoy something without being dependant upon it, which you original premise set.
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Phil Brown

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #354 on: June 15, 2017, 08:53:57 pm »

Big difference between a dependence and an indulgence or enjoyment.  You can enjoy something without being dependant upon it, which you original premise set.

Good point. I wasn't as clear as I could have been with my original statement. It's important to be clear and precise about certain issues, such as not confusing CO2 with the real pollutants from the burning of fossil fuels.  ;)

It is possible to occasionally enjoy a glass of wine, a bowl of ice cream, a MacDonald's hamburger and other processed foods, without becoming emotionally dependent on the experiences, but not for most people it seems.

If you add to that approximate figure of 2/3rds of the population who are overweight, the percentage of people who have a genetic disposition that allows them to over eat junk food without putting on weight, then add again to that figure the percentage of the remaining group of people who are addicted to other types of behaviour such as regular sexual activity, taking illegal or even legal drugs, or who are addicted to computer games or obsessively watching football, and so on, that leaves a relatively small percentage of the population who occasionally indulge in tasty but unwholesome foods or beverages without dependence, or occasionally indulge in those other activities mentioned without any sense of dependence or sense of an 'emotional crutch'.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:00:18 pm by Ray »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #355 on: June 15, 2017, 09:23:51 pm »

Losing weight by eating less of the typical Western diet or by fasting is indeed difficult for most people. Losing weight by switching to plant-based non-processed food is much easier (and healthier).

Les, does plant-based non-processed food include steaks from cows that let's say eat only grass?  :)

LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #356 on: June 15, 2017, 09:49:08 pm »

Les, does plant-based non-processed food include steaks from cows that let's say eat only grass?  :)

According to Radio Yerevan (AKA as the Armenian Radio jokes) - in principle yes, as long as it is a free-range, grass-fed cattle from the steppes.
But you have to tenderize it first as the Cossacks used to do - put salted raw meat under the saddle and ride your horse until the salted meat gets drained from its blood. Then you can thinly slice it with a knife and eat it raw with a generous helping of green salad.

Unfortunately, store bought, corn-fed beef, fortified with growth hormons, antibiotics and artificial coloring, combined with a rather passive lifestyle of a non-riding consumer doesn't bring the same benefits.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:46:29 pm by LesPalenik »
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Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #357 on: June 15, 2017, 10:31:47 pm »

Buy Aussie beef.  No hormones or antibiotics (and usually no colourings) :-)

FYI, the red juice coming out of steaks - it's not blood.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #358 on: June 15, 2017, 11:57:47 pm »

According to Radio Yerevan (AKA as the Armenian Radio jokes) - in principle yes, as long as it is a free-range, grass-fed cattle from the steppes.
But you have to tenderize it first as the Cossacks used to do - put salted raw meat under the saddle and ride your horse until the salted meat gets drained from its blood. Then you can thinly slice it with a knife and eat it raw with a generous helping of green salad.

Unfortunately, store bought, corn-fed beef, fortified with growth hormons, antibiotics and artificial coloring, combined with a rather passive lifestyle of a non-riding consumer doesn't bring the same benefits.
The Cossacks method almost sounds like kosherizing.  But I wonder if it still tastes like beef or horse?

The store bought type you mentioned sounds like the bad stuff I eat. 

Phil, I do eat imported Aussie Lamb chops (or is it New Zealand?) from Costco's.  Great on the BBQ.  In fact I BBQ the store bought, artificial colorized, with antibiotic beef as well.  I understand BBQ creates carcinigenins.  So I guess I'm screwed regardless of the type of meat, healthy or not. 

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #359 on: June 16, 2017, 01:25:16 am »

Could be Kiwi.  Aussie and Kiwi lamb is great.
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Phil Brown
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