Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 72   Go Down

Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 288672 times)

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10475
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #300 on: June 06, 2017, 09:53:30 am »

Maybe we can get this thread off the track of healthcare, nutrition, diet, medical care, pharma industry etc. and back on Climate Change by asking the question how skeptical we are about the effect of flatulation on global warming and climate change. At least we know Methane is a significantly more potent greenhouse gas as compared to CO2.  ;)

Hey! Let's combine the two. I just came across a fascinating article which explores in great detail the research that has discovered an increase in the medicinal properties of certain medicinal plants that results when the plants are grown in elevated levels of CO2.

So often one tends to hear only the negative aspects from the alarmists who try to negate the benefits of increased plant growth by claiming that crops grown in elevated levels of CO2 are less nutritious, all else being equal. However, those who are interested in natural remedies should be delighted to read the following article.  ;D

http://www.plantsneedco2.org/default.aspx?menuitemid=398
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #301 on: June 06, 2017, 10:43:15 am »

However, there are at least two glaring types of unscientific claims in the climate change debacle. One type is a claim of impending disaster based on negative and biased reports which ignore alternative more positive interpretations which are also based on peer reviewed research and empirical data.

Nonsense, as usual. If it's a scientific publication, it has an objective, like (dis)proving a hypothesis, or expanding on earlier work. It doesn't have to (dis)proof other aspects than those under review. It might mention them, if useful for the study at hand, or point to a reference list. If it's a blog by some unqualified reviewer (e.g. someone with a degree in Sociology making claims about geophysical phenomenae), who really cares (beyond that it might entertain an interesting thought or two)?

Quote
The other type is the assertion of certainty about impending CO2-caused disaster which is not based upon any sound empirical data, but based upon flawed computer models.

I could list the major points I recall making which I believe are supported by evidence, or claims by others which are not supported due to an accepted lack of evidence, but it would take too long to review all my comments, so I'll mention and repeat just one major point for the moment. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(1) The latest IPCC report, the AR5, admitted and stated unambiguously that there is 'low confidence' that extreme weather events such as cyclones, hurricanes, floods and droughts, have increased in frequency and intensity, globally, during the past century or so since CO2 levels have been rising.

Selective cherry picking at best, and I still doubt whether you understand the difference between the Statistical concepts "Confidence level" and "Probability". Low confidence is a metric of the observed dataset (or projection), not about the likelihood of an event.

Here's (attached) a summary table from page 126 of the original PDF report (marked page 110 in the document itself), with more detailed explanations in the original document (nuances and regional differences/exceptions), for different (past, current, and future) timeframes:
- Warmer and/or fewer cold days and nights over most land areas
   the scores are Likely, Very likely, or Virtually certain
- Warmer and/or more frequent hot days and nights over most land areas
   the scores are Likely, Very likely, or  Virtually certain
- Heavy precipitation events. Increase in the frequency, intensity, and/or amount of heavy precipitation
  the scores are Likely, or More likely than not.
- *Increases in intensity and/or duration of drought.
   the scores are Likely, or More likely than not.
- *Increases in intense cyclone activity
   the scores are Virtually certain (was likely in some regions), More likely than not, and Likely.
- Increased incidence and/or magnitude of extreme high sea level.
   the scores are Likely, and Very likely.

*) Low confidence does not mean unlikely, it only tells something about the available dataset.

Likelihood is important because it is a factor in Risk assessment. It's the multiplication of 'level of impact' and the 'likelihood' that it will occur, that affects a.o. human life. Confidence levels do not affect human life, they're only affected by datasets.

Quote
These statements are found in the Technical Summary of the Working Group 1 of the IPCC report. These are scientific assessments from peer-reviewed research papers in the field of climate science, rather than political distortions. Do you agree?

See the above and the attached chart.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 02:41:56 pm by BartvanderWolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5338
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #302 on: June 06, 2017, 01:04:01 pm »

Maybe we can get this thread off the track of healthcare, nutrition, diet, medical care, pharma industry etc. and back on Climate Change by asking the question how skeptical we are about the effect of flatulation on global warming and climate change. At least we know Methane is a significantly more potent greenhouse gas as compared to CO2.  ;)

Very good point. As usual, many natural processes in this world are interrelated.
For example, just one cow produces between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2), but the negative effect on the climate of Methane is 23 times higher than the effect of CO2. Multiply this amount by about 1.5 billion currently grazing cattle worldwide, and we are talking about a whole lot of gas. As a matter of fact, livestock is the largest source of methane gas emissions worldwide, contributing over 28 percent of total emissions.

Switching from primarily meat-based diet to plant-based diet would benefit not only the humans doing so, but also many other organisms on this planet.
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4349
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #303 on: June 06, 2017, 04:23:57 pm »

Maybe we can get this thread off the track of healthcare, nutrition, diet, medical care, pharma industry etc. and back on Climate Change by asking the question how skeptical we are about the effect of flatulation on global warming and climate change. At least we know Methane is a significantly more potent greenhouse gas as compared to CO2.  ;)
True story ----  a lot of years ago when I transitioned out of research, I spent some time working in the biotech industry.  One of the early products was synthetic bovine growth hormone (BGH - four companies developed it at about the same time, but Monsanto were most effective in commercializing it).  Injections increased milk production in dairy cows and also increased the growth of cattle destined for beef production; in both cases reducing the food input slightly.  The US EPA did some calculations an projected that widespread use of BGH would decrease methane production by cattle.  I don't remember the exact percentage on that it was somewhat significant.  Use of BGH was objected to by lots of people and there was a big fight about whether products produced using BGH should be labeled.  FDA said it was safe and that no special labeling was required.  Companies could label dairy products as coming from cows not injected with BGH.  I think I did an NPR radio program in the late 1980s when I was defending this practice as well as other biotech products (have to earn a living!!!).  The tape recording of the show is somewhere in the house.

Flatulence control in cattle is something real!! 8)
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5338
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #304 on: June 06, 2017, 09:07:03 pm »

True story ----  a lot of years ago when I transitioned out of research, I spent some time working in the biotech industry.  One of the early products was synthetic bovine growth hormone (BGH - four companies developed it at about the same time, but Monsanto were most effective in commercializing it).  Injections increased milk production in dairy cows and also increased the growth of cattle destined for beef production; in both cases reducing the food input slightly.  The US EPA did some calculations an projected that widespread use of BGH would decrease methane production by cattle.  I don't remember the exact percentage on that it was somewhat significant.  Use of BGH was objected to by lots of people and there was a big fight about whether products produced using BGH should be labeled.  FDA said it was safe and that no special labeling was required.  Companies could label dairy products as coming from cows not injected with BGH. I think I did an NPR radio program in the late 1980s when I was defending this practice as well as other biotech products (have to earn a living!!!).  The tape recording of the show is somewhere in the house.

Flatulence control in cattle is something real!! 8)

I have never seen such a label. What are the current standards of injecting BGH into cows?


Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #305 on: June 06, 2017, 11:25:40 pm »

Very nicely summed up, Ray.
Nowadays, most people in the developed world consume primarily processed food instead of healthier meals prepared mainly from the fresh produce, nuts and seeds. The food industry has mastered the art of creating delicuiously tasting modified food, and the pharma industry offers instant reliefs from indigestion, constipation, flatulation, diabetes, and high cholesterol. And so, there is no wonder that many people keep eating the unhealthy food, and supresss the signs and symptoms of their bodies which protest against the onslaught of the artificial ingredients by damaging it further as they take various drugs and ailments.


That's me.   :o

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #306 on: June 06, 2017, 11:32:04 pm »

True story ----  a lot of years ago when I transitioned out of research, I spent some time working in the biotech industry.  One of the early products was synthetic bovine growth hormone (BGH - four companies developed it at about the same time, but Monsanto were most effective in commercializing it).  Injections increased milk production in dairy cows and also increased the growth of cattle destined for beef production; in both cases reducing the food input slightly.  The US EPA did some calculations an projected that widespread use of BGH would decrease methane production by cattle.  I don't remember the exact percentage on that it was somewhat significant.  Use of BGH was objected to by lots of people and there was a big fight about whether products produced using BGH should be labeled.  FDA said it was safe and that no special labeling was required.  Companies could label dairy products as coming from cows not injected with BGH.  I think I did an NPR radio program in the late 1980s when I was defending this practice as well as other biotech products (have to earn a living!!!).  The tape recording of the show is somewhere in the house.

Flatulence control in cattle is something real!! 8)
If we can figure out how to bottle it an pipe it around, I could heat my house.  Now here's an interesting question.  If you burn the methane, don't you get water, CO2 and other stuff?  Isn't that better than just methane in regards to greenhouse gases?  So we can power our industries and homes and reduce the greenhouse effect at the same time.  Trump should include this in his infrastructure program. 

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5338
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #307 on: June 06, 2017, 11:39:15 pm »

If we can figure out how to bottle it an pipe it around, I could heat my house.  Now here's an interesting question.  If you burn the methane, don't you get water, CO2 and other stuff?  Isn't that better than just methane in regards to greenhouse gases?  So we can power our industries and homes and reduce the greenhouse effect at the same time.  Trump should include this in his infrastructure program.

Large livestock farm have been harnessing cow farts with a good success for a long time. Here is a NYT article from 2008:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/business/businessspecial2/24farmers.html
 
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5338
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #308 on: June 06, 2017, 11:48:19 pm »

Quote
Very nicely summed up, Ray.
Nowadays, most people in the developed world consume primarily processed food instead of healthier meals prepared mainly from the fresh produce, nuts and seeds. The food industry has mastered the art of creating delicuiously tasting modified food, and the pharma industry offers instant reliefs from indigestion, constipation, flatulation, diabetes, and high cholesterol. And so, there is no wonder that many people keep eating the unhealthy food, and supresss the signs and symptoms of their bodies which protest against the onslaught of the artificial ingredients by damaging it further as they take various drugs and ailments.

>>That's me.

The good thing about America is that we can decide how we want to live.

I knew someone with serious advanced diabetes who at one point changed his diet and stopped most of his meds. Then he relapsed and when his sister asked why did he do it, he said: "it's easier to get the shots". Unfortunately, the diabetes and most likely other health problems became unbearable and on his next birthday he walked to a nearby bridge and shot himself (not with a syringe).

 
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10475
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #309 on: June 07, 2017, 02:33:21 am »

Selective cherry picking at best, and I still doubt whether you understand the difference between the Statistical concepts "Confidence level" and "Probability". Low confidence is a metric of the observed dataset (or projection), not about the likelihood of an event.


*) Low confidence does not mean unlikely, it only tells something about the available dataset.

Likelihood is important because it is a factor in Risk assessment. It's the multiplication of 'level of impact' and the 'likelihood' that it will occur, that affects a.o. human life. Confidence levels do not affect human life, they're only affected by datasets.

See the above and the attached chart.

Cheers,
Bart

Please elaborate, Bart. You seem to be engaging in obfuscation. From the AR5 glossary, the definition of 'confidence' is quite clear. To quote:

Confidence - "The validity of a finding based on the type, amount, quality and consistency of evidence and on the degree of agreement."

A statement such as, "There is low confidence that anthropogenic climate change has affected the frequency and magnitude of fluvial floods on a global scale", therefore means 'there is little sound or valid evidence that could support the view that anthropogenic climate change has affected the frequency and magnitude of fluvial, or river flooding, globally.' Don't you agree?

Obviously, it does not mean that anthropogenic climate change has definitely not affected the frequency and magnitude of fluvial floods. If that was the meaning then the phrasing would be, "There is high confidence that anthropogenic climate change has not affected the frequency and magnitude of fluvial floods."

Further more, even if there was 'high confidence' that anthropogenic climate change has not affected fluvial flooding, that doesn't mean there is no risk of a fluvial flood occurring. There is always a risk of extreme weather events occurring. They've occurred throughout history and will presumably continue to occur in the future through natural causes.

The tragedy for humanity and the major risk into the future is due to our failure to protect citizens from the natural extreme weather events that have been occuring on a regular basis for centuries. Whilst there might be a lack of valid evidence and agreement to support the case that cyclones and droughts are currently increasing in frequency and intensity globally, there is very strong evidence that many communities are increasingly vulnerable and unprepared for such natural recurring events.

Which is more sensible?  Spending money protecting yourself and your home from extreme weather events that are almost certain to occur at some time in the near future, or spend a similar amount of money trying to prevent the uncertain risk that the next extreme weather event might actually be the worst in the past century due to anthropogenic climate change, instead of the 3rd or 4th or 5th worse?

Spending trillions of dollars trying to use CO2 levels as a sort of control knob is not going to reduce the usual damage caused by recurring, natural events. In fact, it might not reduce damage at all, even if were true that increased CO2 levels will increase the severity and frequency of such events, because the population is expanding and a greater quantity of people and homes are exposed to the extreme weather events.

The last major fluvial flood in Brisbane, which occurred in 2010/11, is an example of this factor. Flood levels were about one metre lower than the previous flood of the same river in 1974, yet the damage bill for the 2010/11 flood was much greater because more homes were affected as a result of a population expansion and the council approval for new homes to be built in areas that had previously been flooded, which sounds a bit crazy. I suspect the council was being advised by so-called climate authorities in Australia that droughts would become more common and precipitation events less severe.

Attached is page 53 of the Synthesis Report (SYR) of the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report (AR5)which provides an overview of the state of knowledge concerning the science of climate change, emphasizing new results since the publication of the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) in 2007.

Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10475
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #310 on: June 07, 2017, 02:59:32 am »

>>That's me.

The good thing about America is that we can decide how we want to live.

I knew someone with serious advanced diabetes who at one point changed his diet and stopped most of his meds. Then he relapsed and when his sister asked why did he do it, he said: "it's easier to get the shots". Unfortunately, the diabetes and most likely other health problems became unbearable and on his next birthday he walked to a nearby bridge and shot himself (not with a syringe).


Sorry to hear that, Les. The impression I get is that such situation can be be very complicated due to the genetic variation of each individual and due to factors such as the quality of the gut microbiome which consists of tens of trillions of bacteria and microbes of perhaps a thousand or more different species.

The quality and type of those gut bacteria appear to affect our general health and the types of food, diets and medication which are most beneficial for the individual. However, it's a new science and there's a lot of uncertainty. A bit like Climate Change in that respect.  ;)
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4349
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #311 on: June 07, 2017, 09:09:13 am »

I have never seen such a label. What are the current standards of injecting BGH into cows?
Look at Stoneyfield Yogurt.  they have a statement on the container that none of the milk they use comes from cows treated with BGH.  In terms of standards, synthetic BGH is an FDA approved animal drug.
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4349
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #312 on: June 07, 2017, 09:10:47 am »

Large livestock farm have been harnessing cow farts with a good success for a long time. Here is a NYT article from 2008:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/business/businessspecial2/24farmers.html
The link you provided is unrelated to flatulence emissions.  It's simply using the manure in a bioreactor to generate methane gas.  this has been used for a long time by dairy farmers.
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5338
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #313 on: June 07, 2017, 09:38:53 am »

The link you provided is unrelated to flatulence emissions.  It's simply using the manure in a bioreactor to generate methane gas.  this has been used for a long time by dairy farmers.
Thank you for pointing it out, Alan. In the rush, I copied the first link on the google list.
Here is the a depiction of a stately cow, equipped with a cavernous backpack capturing cow's gas right at the source.



Full article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2606956/Now-THATS-wind-power-Cows-wear-BACKPACKS-capture-emissions-miniature-power-stations.html
 
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #314 on: June 07, 2017, 09:56:47 am »

Thank you for pointing it out, Alan. In the rush, I copied the first link on the google list.
Here is the a depiction of a stately cow, equipped with a cavernous backpack capturing cow's gas right at the source.
 
I know some people who could make a lot of money using one of those backpacks for themselves. :)

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5338
    • advantica blog
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #315 on: June 07, 2017, 10:08:49 am »

Well, there are business opportunities everywhere. Some don't even require higher education.
Logged

JKoerner007

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • "A picture's worth a thousand words."
    • John Koerner Photography
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #316 on: June 09, 2017, 08:40:49 pm »

Forget it, Ray. It's a religious thing for people like Bernard. You can't change a person's mind about religion with logic. It's a matter of faith. Those who believe science supports "global warming" need to check for the opposite "scientific" point of view. Here's one: http://www.winningreen.com/site/epage/59549_621.htm. There's a world of others in the same vein, many of which are listed here. The data are pretty much the same, but the assumptions (religious views) are different.

The trouble with "faith" is that it = the absence of reason.

When we have a reason to believe something, we state the facts that lead to this conclusion.

That is the very definition of reason: logic and a sound argument. (In fact, I will bet 99% of the readers don't know what a sound argument is.)

Religion, by contrast, asks people to "have faith" precisely because there is no reason to believe the dogma.
Because the stories don't make sense, because the posits can NEVER be proven, religion MUST ask its followers to "have faith" in the doctrine :o

The real insidious part is a person who ignores facts, and who (with trembling lips) recites and supplicates is considered "a good" person...
Whereas the person who questions the stories, who cross-examines the dogma, and who rejects the (il)logic is considered "a bad" person ...

Childish, but these psychological bonds and beliefs last with the majority on into adulthood.

The bottom line is religious dogma is opposite of science: absurd, unprovable, illogical.
By contrast everything about science IS measurable, observable, and provable, repeatedly, every time.

Thus, when you have one group of people (scientific-minded), who base their arguments on measurable, observable, and repeatable facts ... debating concepts with a group of people who are emotional (religious-minded), who base their argument on "faith," the literal and utter abdication of reason ...

The chances are awfully high no one will ever agree :D

Jack

Carl Sagan warning of what is happening today: Non-Qualified, Uneducated Politicians In Control of Awesome Forces They Don't Understand
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 12:58:42 pm by JKoerner007 »
Logged

JKoerner007

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • "A picture's worth a thousand words."
    • John Koerner Photography
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #317 on: June 09, 2017, 08:44:26 pm »

When your scepticism is permanent, it's denial.

Good quote.

Let me also add: Denial isn't rebuttal; it's only denial.

JKoerner007

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • "A picture's worth a thousand words."
    • John Koerner Photography
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #318 on: June 09, 2017, 09:50:07 pm »

There's a group, Ray, and you seem to be in it, that refuses to accept any level of evidence.  You always claim that we need more, no matter how much more or how many more qualified people confirm that we are causing a faster than expected rise in temperatures and that we can do something about it.  That's denial.

Worse, he doesn't even understand what science is.

There are people whose life's mission is to attempt to "muddy the waters" ... just so they can't see to the bottom.

Ray's words and attempts to "think out loud" here are nothing but him muddying his own waters.

Back to reality, the scientific method is designed for clarity.

It is a system of thought, analysis, and testing designed only to reach conclusions based on hypotheses/theories on which tests can be run, with the results being observed, measured, and where the outcome repeatedly obtains.

Those hypotheses/theories which pass such rigorous scrutiny are what we call facts.

97% of scientists on earth, who live by this methodology, agree that the facts indicate climate change is a problem ... and that we humans are its cause.

The 3% of scientists who don't are on somebody's payroll ;)

The common person who "doesn't believe science" invariably 1) is religious-minded (see above) and/or 2) has no PhD level scientific training, either.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #319 on: June 09, 2017, 10:23:21 pm »

The trouble with "faith" is that it = the absence of reason.

When we have a reason to believe something, we state the facts that lead to this conclusion.

That is the very definition of reason: logic and a sound argument. (In fact, I will bet 99% of the readers don't know what a sound argument is.)

Religion, by contrast, asks people to "have faith" precisely because there is no reason to believe the dogma.
Because the stories don't make sense, because the posits can NEVER be proven, religion MUST ask its followers to "have faith" in the doctrine :o

The real insidious part is a person who ignores facts, and who (with trembling lips) recites and supplicates is considered "a good" person...
Whereas the person who questions the stories, who cross-examines the dogma, and who rejects the (il)logic is considered "a bad" person ...

Childish, but these psychological bonds and beliefs last with the majority on into adulthood.

The bottom line is religious dogma is opposite of science: absurd, unprovable, illogical.
By contrast everything about science IS measurable, observable, and provable, repeatedly, every time.

Thus, when you have one group of people (scientific-minded), who base their arguments on measurable, observable, and repeatable facts ... debating concepts with a group of people who are emotional (religious-minded), who base their argument on "faith," the literal and utter abdication of reason ...

The chances are awfully high no one will ever agree :D

Jack

Carl Sagan warning of what is happening today: Non-Qualified, Uneducated Politicians In Control of Awesome Forces They Don't Understand
You're assuming that all the facts are known.  That facts are never misinterpreted.  That scientists are above reproach, that they never put their thumb on the scale for their own profit and pride and fame.  That people who disagree with a scientific theory do so because in their longer life then you, they have seem countless so-called proven theories disproved or reversed. That scientific knowledge never evolves, as Einstein famously disproved. 

You see in the end, you are the same as people of faith in God.  Instead of God, you put your faith in science and the physical world to give you comfort and belief.  But while God is unchanging, science is. While  God will never let you down, science will. 
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 72   Go Up