Skepticism about Climate Change

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Only The Delusionals are "combating'" it. The Chinese are rather realistic.

The Chinese are, and they are out-competing the USA while they are at it.

Why China Is Dominating the Solar Industry
Between 2008 and 2013, China's solar-electric panel industry dropped world prices by 80 percent
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-china-is-dominating-the-solar-industry/

China’s move eclipsed the leadership of the U.S. solar industry, which invented the technology, still holds many of the world’s patents and led the industry for more than three decades. Just how China accomplished that and why it did is still a matter of concern and debate among U.S. experts.

And while people like Alan may think that the USA is doing a good job, it's thanks to the Chinese that:
Solar now costs 6¢ per kilowatt-hour, beating government goal by 3 years
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/solar-now-costs-6-per-kilowatt-hour-beating-government-goal-by-3-years/

Whatever the reasoning was behind China’s massive investment in solar module manufacturing, the impact on its U.S. competitors has not been benign. SunEdison of Belmont, Calif., filed for bankruptcy in April. The stocks of two other leading companies, First Solar and SunPower, were in the triple digits a decade ago. Now they are treading water, floating between 13 and 6 percent of their former values.

“People tend to view negatively that China has taken over [solar] module market share,” said David Mooney, director of NREL’s strategic energy analysis center. “It would have been better if that capacity had stayed in the U.S.”

“Another side of the coin, from my perspective,” he said, is 250,000 American jobs in the solar panel assembly, installation and maintenance business, many of which wouldn’t have happened without the push from China that dramatically lowered solar module prices.

“Those jobs can’t be outsourced,” he said.

So even some of the jobs that Trump claims to have created, are actually due to the Chinese ...

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Klein]

The Chinese are, and they are out-competing the USA while they are at it.

Why China Is Dominating the Solar Industry
Between 2008 and 2013, China's solar-electric panel industry dropped world prices by 80 percent
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-china-is-dominating-the-solar-industry/
And while people like Alan may think that the USA is doing a good job, it's thanks to the Chinese that:
Solar now costs 6¢ per kilowatt-hour, beating government goal by 3 years
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/solar-now-costs-6-per-kilowatt-hour-beating-government-goal-by-3-years/

So even some of the jobs that Trump claims to have created, are actually due to the Chinese ...

Cheers,
Bart

China is a problem not only for the US but for Europe and other countries around the world.  They steal everyone's patents and secret commercial and military secrets. It's estimated that it costs America $300-$500 billion in lost GDP because of that per year.  How much it costs Europe, I don't know.  Trump says he's going to stop this, but I have my doubts.

The Chinese subsidize industries like solar until they drive foreign competition out-of-business. Another Trump complaint.  I hate to bring it up again, but the Paris Accord let's them off the hook while the rest of the world hobbles themselves with costly production methods while the Chinese build more coal-fired electric plants.

America isn't the only country suffering from their predatory activities.  While the world is blinding themselves chasing climate change pipe dreams, the Chinese are eating everyone's lunch.  What are you going to do to counter China?  While you complain about America, China will steal you blind. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

China is a problem not only for the US but for Europe and other countries around the world.  They steal everyone's patents and secret commercial and military secrets. It's estimated that it costs America $300-$500 billion in lost GDP because of that per year.  How much it costs Europe, I don't know.  Trump says he's going to stop this, but I have my doubts.

Source?

The Chinese subsidize industries like solar until they drive foreign competition out-of-business. Another Trump complaint.  I hate to bring it up again, but the Paris Accord let's them off the hook while the rest of the world hobbles themselves with costly production methods while the Chinese build more coal-fired electric plants.

You can repeat it, but that doesn't make it true.

BTW, foreign state subsidies can be tackled by import tariffs and trade agreements. No, the real reason that they are out-competing the USA is because they are better at the game and also have a huge home market. They are also the ones, by upscaling production, who are responsible for the dropping costs. That also creates jobs in e.g. my country, not only for installation, but there also companies are emerging that locally produce different quality PV panels at premium prices and with extended warranty periods and financing packages. Also, combined panels for electricity and heat production are becoming available.

America isn't the only country suffering from their predatory activities.  While the world is blinding themselves chasing climate change pipe dreams, the Chinese are eating everyone's lunch.  What are you going to do to counter China?  While you complain about America, China will steal you blind.

Spend money more wisely (reduce wasting it, e.g. by investing in the future, and not on government debts from the past), and benefit from the opportunities from renewable energy, minimize fossil fuel use, and use Trade agreements to avoid dumping practices. Introduce carbon tax for products made with fossil fuel, and/or reduce tax for products made with clean renewable energy.

Cheers,
Bart

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... better at the game ..

You mean vastly cheaper, almost slave labor and lax environmental protections?

... not on government debts from the past...

Huh!? Are you suggesting a default?

[Alan Klein]

Source?

...
Cheers,
Bart

Cost of Chinese theft of patents, trade secrets, and counterfeiting to the US.  There is a commission studying the full extent of the problem over the next 18 months.  Frankly I think Trump is kicking the can down the road.
Quote: " We estimate that the annual cost to the U.S. economy continues to exceed $225 billion in counterfeit goods, pirated software, and theft of trade secrets and could be as high as $600 billion."

http://www.ipcommission.org/report/IP_Commission_Report_Update_2017.pdf

[LesPalenik]

More Pollution

The Dream Cruises, the Asian shipping company, starts their offerings with the luxury liners in the future from China from Vietnam and the Philippines. According to NDR, the ship is designed for 3300 passengers and 1700 crew members. The "World Dream" does not have an exhaust gas purification system for the polluting pollutants, since there are no corresponding regulations in the Asian market.

World Dream will start sailing from Hong Kong on 17 November and from Nansha on 19 November, and take guests on two weekly alternating 6-day/5-night itineraries to exotic and popular destinations including Boracay and Manila in the Philippines and Ho Chi Minh and Nha Trang in Vietnam, as well as 3-day/2-night weekend cruise from Hong Kong around the Pearl River Delta.

https://eturbonews.com/164681/dream-cruises-set-new-world-record-world-dream

[Alan Klein]

More Pollution

The Dream Cruises, the Asian shipping company, starts their offerings with the luxury liners in the future from China from Vietnam and the Philippines. According to NDR, the ship is designed for 3300 passengers and 1700 crew members. The "World Dream" does not have an exhaust gas purification system for the polluting pollutants, since there are no corresponding regulations in the Asian market.

https://eturbonews.com/164681/dream-cruises-set-new-world-record-world-dream

This is the point I'm making.   Because of the way Paris accord is structured,  China won't have to meet similar requirements as America and other western countries.   They can buy and run ships cheaper.   Multiply that across all industries.   Why do you want to give your competitor an advantage like that?   Even if you think we need to reduce CO2, there has to be a fair and even playing field in the Paris accord.   Otherwise some countries like China and India will have economic competitive advantages.  That shouldn't be the purpose of Paris.

[Tim Lookingbill]

Cost of Chinese theft of patents, trade secrets, and counterfeiting to the US.  There is a commission studying the full extent of the problem over the next 18 months.  Frankly I think Trump is kicking the can down the road.
Quote: " We estimate that the annual cost to the U.S. economy continues to exceed $225 billion in counterfeit goods, pirated software, and theft of trade secrets and could be as high as $600 billion."

http://www.ipcommission.org/report/IP_Commission_Report_Update_2017.pdf

But wouldn't all that theft by China balance out the US deficit? I mean if China wants us to pay down their loan to us, we just say we're even.

[pegelli]

This is the point I'm making.   Because of the way Paris accord is structured,  China won't have to meet similar requirements as America and other western countries.   They can buy and run ships cheaper.   Multiply that across all industries.   Why do you want to give your competitor an advantage like that?   Even if you think we need to reduce CO2, there has to be a fair and even playing field in the Paris accord.   Otherwise some countries like China and India will have economic competitive advantages.  That shouldn't be the purpose of Paris.

Alan, look in the mirror and see that America is the 2nd country in total CO2 emissions and the 5th or 6th per in per capita emmissions. These facts don't lie.
And all you do is point fingers at others to try and deflect the attention from the very high US CO2 emissions.
It's amazingly selfish.

And the countries don't have to meet "requirements" put on them by others, they just have to meet what they committed to themselves going into the Paric conference and if you add it all up in the end the world's CO2 emissions will stabilize in the short term and go down in the longer term.

[Peter McLennan]

Otherwise some countries like China and India will have economic competitive advantages.  That shouldn't be the purpose of Paris.

The "purpose of Paris" is not to give China and India "competitive advantages". The purpose of Paris is to reduce carbon emissions.
Twisting and spinning words like that may work for Trump supporters, but they don't work in the real world.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, look in the mirror and see that America is the 2nd country in total CO2 emissions and the 5th or 6th per in per capita emmissions. These facts don't lie.
And all you do is point fingers at others to try and deflect the attention from the very high US CO2 emissions.
It's amazingly selfish.

And the countries don't have to meet "requirements" put on them by others, they just have to meet what they committed to themselves going into the Paric conference and if you add it all up in the end the world's CO2 emissions will stabilize in the short term and go down in the longer term.

Paris favors China and India.  It's a bad deal for America and the rest of the world.  I'm glad Trump pulled out. I wish you and the others well. 

[Alan Klein]

The "purpose of Paris" is not to give China and India "competitive advantages". The purpose of Paris is to reduce carbon emissions.
Twisting and spinning words like that may work for Trump supporters, but they don't work in the real world.

One of my points and question I asked that you didn't answer.  How do you expect to reduce CO2 when China and India, the countries that currently contribute 37% of the CO2 and will probably go to 45%+, don't have to do anything until 2030? 

[pegelli]

One of my points and question I asked that you didn't answer.  How do you expect to reduce CO2 when China and India, the countries that currently contribute 37% of the CO2 and will probably go to 45%+, don't have to do anything until 2030?

Your question is tendentious and premise that they "do nothing" is not correct. They still increase CO2 emmissions to cover their growth, but they still shut down a lot of older/smaller/high emmission installations. The number 45% + is that also pulled from your a$$, or do you have any credible data to back up that claim.

[pegelli]

Paris favors China and India.  It's a bad deal for America and the rest of the world.  I'm glad Trump pulled out. I wish you and the others well.

This is what I continuously keep hearing out of your echo chamber, but do you actually have no defense for the fact that the US is second in total emissions and 5th or 6th is per capita emissions. It wouldn't be bad for the US to do something about that rather then put the blame on others and "play victim" for getting a bad deal. .

[Alan Klein]

But wouldn't all that theft by China balance out the US deficit? I mean if China wants us to pay down their loan to us, we just say we're even.

We can't conflate the two.  It would destroy the respect and value for the American dollar because it will seem like the American government won't stand by it's debt and bonds.  We would become like Venezuela and Argentina the latter who refused to honor their bond payments on some other issue unrelated to the bond.  If there are disagreements about "theft" and unfair trade agreements, they should be worked out on their own discussions with China and through other processes like international courts.

[Alan Klein]

Your question is tendentious and premise that they "do nothing" is not correct. They still increase CO2 emmissions to cover their growth, but they still shut down a lot of older/smaller/high emmission installations. The number 45% + is that also pulled from your a$$, or do you have any credible data to back up that claim.

So you say it's OK for them to keep increasing their CO2 production because they're growing.  Growing?  They have 1.4 billion people.  Four times America's population.  They're already the second largest economy and will overtake America in a few years.  Yet you want to give them a pass while they grow.  When can they start reducing CO2?  When they're at 70% of the world's CO2 production?  And who says they'll do anything in 2030 since it's all voluntary.  They bamboozled you once.  When 2030 rolls around , they'll bamboozle you again and tell you they that they're still growing and will have to delay reducing until 2050.  You know the Brooklyn Bridge is still for sale.

[Alan Klein]

This is what I continuously keep hearing out of your echo chamber, but do you actually have no defense for the fact that the US is second in total emissions and 5th or 6th is per capita emissions. It wouldn't be bad for the US to do something about that rather then put the blame on others and "play victim" for getting a bad deal. .

Paris is a bad deal for America.  We're out.

[Alan Klein]

Apparently the president and McMasters agree with me with both the economic and CO2 points I've been making.  It's nice to see them on-board.   

From comments made today:
"The president decided to pull out of the Paris accord because it's a bad deal for the American people and it's a bad deal for the environment," McMaster said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/09/17/mcmaster-says-no-redo-on-paris-climate-deal-decision-suggests-bannon-tried-to-manipulate-trump/

[Alan Goldhammer]

Apparently the president and McMasters agree with me with both the economic and CO2 points I've been making.  It's nice to see them on-board.   

From comments made today:
"The president decided to pull out of the Paris accord because it's a bad deal for the American people and it's a bad deal for the environment," McMaster said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/09/17/mcmaster-says-no-redo-on-paris-climate-deal-decision-suggests-bannon-tried-to-manipulate-trump/

....and Sean Spicer never lied for the President either.

[Alan Klein]

....and Sean Spicer never lied for the President either.

Who's lying?    McMaster repeated Trump's policy.  Trump said many, many times that Paris accord  is bad for our economy and the environment.  I agree.  Am I lying?  I don't understand your accusation.  You may have a different viewpoint, but that doesn't mean anyone's lying.