Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival  (Read 5421 times)

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2017, 02:33:28 pm »

This discussion is a good prompt for me to go back and visit my former employer in downtown Washington DC.  I have about 20 11x16 images hanging in the hallway.  All are framed under high quality acrylite (Frame Destinations).  All of them were printed in 2007 with Epson K3 inks.  Several are monochrome.  the lighting is typical American office building, fairly harsh and on fo4 12 to 14 hours a day.  I was back for a meeting in late 2011 and they still looked fine; no noticeable color changes.  I'll need to go back one of these days and see how they look now as it's almost 10 years of display.  Papers used for printing:  Ilford Gold Fiber Silk; Museo Silver Rag; Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth (there is a lot of data on this paper on Aardenburg as Mark and I wanted to fully test out Epson ABW print driver).

For those of you who sell to doctors' offices like I do, this might offer a convenient way to check up on print stability.

Alan
Logged

pearlstreet

  • Guest
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2017, 03:29:17 pm »

This discussion is a good prompt for me to go back and visit my former employer in downtown Washington DC.  I have about 20 11x16 images hanging in the hallway.  All are framed under high quality acrylite (Frame Destinations).  All of them were printed in 2007 with Epson K3 inks.  Several are monochrome.  the lighting is typical American office building, fairly harsh and on fo4 12 to 14 hours a day.  I was back for a meeting in late 2011 and they still looked fine; no noticeable color changes.  I'll need to go back one of these days and see how they look now as it's almost 10 years of display.  Papers used for printing:  Ilford Gold Fiber Silk; Museo Silver Rag; Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth (there is a lot of data on this paper on Aardenburg as Mark and I wanted to fully test out Epson ABW print driver).

For those of you who sell to doctors' offices like I do, this might offer a convenient way to check up on print stability.

Alan

Let us know how it turns out, Alan. I ordered a roll and box of the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta. It seems like a better choice.
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2017, 04:11:54 pm »

This discussion is a good prompt for me to go back and visit my former employer in downtown Washington DC.  I have about 20 11x16 images hanging in the hallway.  All are framed under high quality acrylite (Frame Destinations).  All of them were printed in 2007 with Epson K3 inks.  Several are monochrome.  the lighting is typical American office building, fairly harsh and on fo4 12 to 14 hours a day.  I was back for a meeting in late 2011 and they still looked fine; no noticeable color changes.  I'll need to go back one of these days and see how they look now as it's almost 10 years of display.  Papers used for printing:  Ilford Gold Fiber Silk; Museo Silver Rag; Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth (there is a lot of data on this paper on Aardenburg as Mark and I wanted to fully test out Epson ABW print driver).

For those of you who sell to doctors' offices like I do, this might offer a convenient way to check up on print stability.

Alan

Hi Alan. Please take a lux meter with you and make some spot measurements in front of your prints :)  I think it will be very instructive, and the measurements combined with a reasonable guess for how long the prints are illuminated on a daily basis can be used to make a rough but still useful estimate of accumulated exposure dose to date. Then this estimated accumulated exposure dose can be compared to the Aardenburg Conservation Display ratings.

here's a decent one (CIE photopic spectral response and cosine corrected) that will work over a broad illuminance range. I bought this unit a while back for $15 on Amazon prime:

https://www.amazon.com/Sunche-Professional-Illuminance-Illuminometer-Photometer/dp/B00LSFR0FO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1492200195&sr=8-2&keywords=lux+meter+HS1010

My sample of this little luxmeter is within 5% accuracy over a tested 10-15000 lux range compared to the $2K NIST traceable radiometer I own to calibrate my light fade units.

all the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Logged

rdonson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3263
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2017, 05:18:20 pm »

Thanks, Mark!  I've ordered one. 

I've always wanted to know how dark it is for the photo exhibits I visit.  I saw an exhibit of Ansel Adams prints and the museum gallery was like a cave.  I'm sure they have their reason for displaying them with that low a light but it made it very, very difficult for me to appreciate his prints.  Now I'll know and compare it to how I view my Adams' prints (not by Ansel himself) at home.
Logged
Regards,
Ron

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2017, 05:48:48 pm »

...  I saw an exhibit of Ansel Adams prints and the museum gallery was like a cave.  I'm sure they have their reason for displaying them with that low a light but it made it very, very difficult for me to appreciate his prints.  Now I'll know and compare it to how I view my Adams' prints (not by Ansel himself) at home.

Yes, many of Adam's prints contain OBA's, hence, to keep them in pristine condition, Museums have to treat them as if they are fugitive color prints. That said, older folks like you and me don't have the low light sensitivity we used to.  Most lighting designers in Museums and Archives are aware of that fact, but don't always have the know-how or exhibition budgets to create adaptive surround conditions which allow everyone to see better color and tone under lower illumination levels on the print. I hate it when that happens! ;)

Glad to hear you picked up a lux meter.  Maybe the Aardenburg website should move to a click-bait advertising model with loads of links to retailers in order to pick up a few extra dollars... not!!!

You will be fascinated with the range of light levels routinely encountered in real-world indoor display environments.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2017, 05:59:15 pm »



Glad to hear you picked up a lux meter.  Maybe the Aardenburg website should move to a click-bait advertising model with loads of links to retailers in order to pick up a few extra dollars... not!!!

You will be fascinated with the range of light levels routinely encountered in real-world indoor display environments.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Amazon only have 7 left after my order just went in!!!

Alan
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2017, 06:57:09 pm »

Amazon only have 7 left after my order just went in!!!

Alan

Amazon is a bit weird in that it stocks different distributors all selling exactly the same product but with variants of the product name and description. I'll bet if you type in "lux meter HS1010" into the amazon search box, you will see this exact same unit fulfilled by different vendors at varying price points. HS1010 seems to be the common model number going back to the actual manufacturer (probably some place in china :)). I picked that link because the description confirmed the CIE photopic response. The white diffusing disk confirms the cosine response. I didn't do an exhaustive study on which link is the rock bottom price, but at less than $15 I thought this lux meter a pretty darn good bargain.

As someone else noted there are also smartphone lux meter apps, but some are much better than others and some even allow for calibration, but it harder to know exactly what you are getting. Also, to do it right, you  have to look for a smartphone luxmeter solution that sell you a white disk which fits over the smartphone camera lens or ports into the microphone jack. The white disk thingy is also then typically sold with the free app that is supposed to be used with it.  Anyway, smartphone lux meter apps are another cool approach to affordable lux level reading, but I think the dedicated lux meter units require less market research to know what you are actually getting.

best,
Mark
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2017, 09:19:50 am »

Amazon is a bit weird in that it stocks different distributors all selling exactly the same product but with variants of the product name and description. I'll bet if you type in "lux meter HS1010" into the amazon search box, you will see this exact same unit fulfilled by different vendors at varying price points. HS1010 seems to be the common model number going back to the actual manufacturer (probably some place in china :)). I picked that link because the description confirmed the CIE photopic response. The white diffusing disk confirms the cosine response. I didn't do an exhaustive study on which link is the rock bottom price, but at less than $15 I thought this lux meter a pretty darn good bargain.
The meter came the other day and looks to be a great instrument for the price!!!  It's pretty easy to use.  I've confirmed that my 'gallery' is still hanging and I plan to go down and take LUX measurements and report back.  As noted, most of the images have been hanging over eight years under fairly harsh office lighting.  If I had some forethought I would have printed out a color patch set to hang up and measure (I'm sure the powers to be would think it to be some type of op-art).

Alan
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2017, 02:18:19 pm »

I just got back from my old office.  All the prints are still hanging and the colors look very good.  The papers were Hahnemuhly Photo Rag Ultra Smooth, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, and Museo Silver Rag.  10 images are hanging, all framed behind normal Acrylite and two are monochrome.  The average LUX reading was 332 with a high value of 401 and a low value 258.  The lights are on for about 13 hours a day.  All the images are in the hallway and none receive any sunlight.  As noted the pictures have been hanging since late 2008 and were printed on an Epson 3880.

Alan
Logged

pearlstreet

  • Guest
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2017, 05:02:35 pm »

I just got back from my old office.  All the prints are still hanging and the colors look very good.  The papers were Hahnemuhly Photo Rag Ultra Smooth, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, and Museo Silver Rag.  10 images are hanging, all framed behind normal Acrylite and two are monochrome.  The average LUX reading was 332 with a high value of 401 and a low value 258.  The lights are on for about 13 hours a day.  All the images are in the hallway and none receive any sunlight.  As noted the pictures have been hanging since late 2008 and were printed on an Epson 3880.

Alan

Hi Alan, did the acrylic you use have uv protection?
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2017, 05:04:31 pm »

Hi Alan, did the acrylic you use have uv protection?
No, plain acrylic.
Logged

pearlstreet

  • Guest
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2017, 06:33:44 pm »

No, plain acrylic.

That is great - very encouraging to know they held up.
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2017, 08:56:31 pm »

I just got back from my old office.  All the prints are still hanging and the colors look very good.  The papers were Hahnemuhly Photo Rag Ultra Smooth, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, and Museo Silver Rag.  10 images are hanging, all framed behind normal Acrylite and two are monochrome.  The average LUX reading was 332 with a high value of 401 and a low value 258.  The lights are on for about 13 hours a day.  All the images are in the hallway and none receive any sunlight.  As noted the pictures have been hanging since late 2008 and were printed on an Epson 3880.

Alan

Alan, your measured range of 258 to 401 lux is pretty consistent with typically quoted values for good office lighting conditions, although I was expecting a little more variablity from low to high. :)  If we take the measured high value for daily exposure as 400 lux for 13 hours per day we can make a "worst case" estimate with respect to the total accumulated exposure to date.

400 lux x 13 hours/day x 365 days/year  x 9 years x (1megalux/1000000 lux) = 17.082 Megalux hours

Assuming you printed with an Epson printer and K3 ink set, I found some Aardenburg test results for the papers you used.  The worst two Aardenburg Conservation Display ratings among those I found were 51-84 and 59-95 megalux hours, respectively. If we then take the 51 megalux hour lower CDR limit as the worst case situation where just noticeable fading begins to occur, then your prints are still well within their “period of excellence” where essentially no fading is going to be observed. In fact, these prints on display in this location have at least 18 more years to remain in excellent condition at this estimated light exposure rate!

Consider if you had made conventional wet process chromogenic color prints instead of these K3 pigment prints and place under same display conditions.  Aardenburg predicts a Conservation display rating for Fuji Crystal Archive at approximately 12-28 megalux hours. Your “period of excellence” would almost be used up entirely. Those prints would still look good today, but in another nine years they would then be into the “noticeable fade” stage of their print life, and 18 years from now would be well into their “easily noticeable fade” stage of deterioration, whereas the K3 pigment prints on your chosen papers, albeit then having consumed their full Conservation rated display time, will thus still look essentially fade-free.

Or consider if you had used a high OBA content paper like Epson Ultra Premium Presentation paper (aka, Epson Archival Matte). It scored an 8-103 meglux hour Conservation display rating with the K3 ink set, the upper CDR limit being extended because the strong media white yellowing is off-setting some of the K3 yellow fading in various colors on average. Thus, while many areas in an image would still contain colors and tones in excellent condition, the media white print margins and white areas as well as many highlight colors, especially light blue colors, would now be exhibiting noticeable color changes. The  OBA fading is largely responsible for the visual outcome in this example.

Lastly, consider what might have occurred if you had elected to use a third party “K3 equivalent” ink set to make your prints. I have one popular brand in test at the moment (data not yet posted to the Aardenburg database) that more than likely is actually a dye-pigment hybrid ink set. Some third party inks do significantly better in Aardenburg testing than this one, but this one is going to get a rating of approximately 2-5 megalux hours despite being sold as a high quality replacement ink set for printer models using Epson k3, K3VM, or even HD inks. Without published fade test results, who would know?   In some commonly encountered home display conditions under 100 lux/12 hour daily illumination, this product would still be relatively fade-free at your nine year mark on display and the buyer would likely feel justified at his/her purchase under those circumstances, but in the office condition you have measured, easily noticeable fade would have already occurred at your nine year mark. I wouldn’t want my signature on those prints!

I hope Alan's real world lux level measurements in a specific display location along with the extra examples of print process choice I discussed above help to inform folks why choosing print processes wisely is one important part of the print longevity puzzle. The other is display lighting.  Real world variability in display illumination levels accounts for very large differences in print fading outcomes even when considering just one print process (e.g., printer/ink/media). It is why for the materials and processes we test, Aardenburg posts megalux hour ratings, and we hope you own a light meter ;).. in order to make a more informed decision with respect to "how long will my prints last?".

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:38:28 pm by MHMG »
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta Archival
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2017, 08:51:41 am »

Alan, your measured range of 258 to 401 lux is pretty consistent with typically quoted values for good office lighting conditions, although I was expecting a little more variablity from low to high. :) 
Mark, thanks for doing the math!!!  All the pictures are hung at viewing height and I did a number of measurements in other areas of the office to make sure that the meter was giving consistent readings.  One of the interesting things that I looked at were three images taken in the fall when the color changes in tree foliage were at their peak.  We know that the Epson yellow is the weakest in the ink set.  Visually, these scenes still looked as vibrant as when they were printed.

It's good to know the display will hold up well for another decade or more.  The only question is whether management may tire of them!!!  Certainly the current employees continue to enjoy them.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up