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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 146344 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #400 on: April 10, 2017, 10:08:29 am »

The fact that there are many healthy reefs in areas with similar temperatures and ocean acidification needs an explanation.

Fact? 'Similar' temperatures and ocean acidification????

"What is coral bleaching?
When corals are stressed by changes in conditions such as temperature, light, or nutrients, they expel the symbiotic algae living in their tissues, causing them to turn completely white."

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/coral_bleach.html

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 10:23:33 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #401 on: April 10, 2017, 10:13:29 am »

Just wondering where the money comes from?

Reduced overspending, and bearing a more collective burden.

Reduced partisanship also helps to create more sustained policies, instead of wasteful flip/flopping and repealing.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #402 on: April 10, 2017, 11:47:16 am »

Just wondering where the money comes from?  This year our deficit is $600+ billion.  Our debt has grown $10 trillion in the last 8 years.  Should we keep borrowing from the Chinese?  Should we start printing money again and reduce the value of everything we own and earn? Will you accept a 10% cut in your Social Security?  Will you agree to double your Medicare payments before and after retirement? Should we pull out of NATO and let Europe defend itself? Should we stop dropping bombs on Syria and let others become the arbiter of international norms?  Should we reduce our carrier forces to let's say 6 rather than 12 and tell the Japanese, Australians and South Koreans they'll have to deal with an expanding China on their own?  Should we pull out of the Middle East and let Saudi Arabia, Israel, Jordan, and other friends deal with a nuclear Iran on their own?  Should we become America First?

We're stretched too far.  We're not the rich country we use to be.  Something's got to give.
Alan,
I'm not going to get down in the weeds here.  the blunt fact is that the US is 1) under taxed for the what the citizens want and 2) the tax code is riddled with give aways to all  sorts of interests.  Get a copy of Reid's book.  It's only about 300 pages and you will be filled with outrage after reading it.  We can have lower tax rates if we do away with all the tax preferences and raise enough money to fund everything you mention.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #403 on: April 10, 2017, 11:49:59 am »

Reduced overspending, and bearing a more collective burden.

Reduced partisanship also helps to create more sustained policies, instead of wasteful flip/flopping and repealing.

Cheers,
Bart
In the book I cited, Reid interviews the head of the Revenue Department (don't know the Dutch name) in the Netherlands.  He asked him how long it takes the average citizen to complete their taxes and the answer was about 15 minutes!!!  As a comparison, it takes me about 10 hours and I don't have all that complicated a return to file.  Most of the work I do is collecting all the data that our IRS already has and doing what amounts to duplicate data entry.  It's really quite ridiculous!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #404 on: April 10, 2017, 11:58:38 am »

Most of the work I do is collecting all the data that our IRS already has and doing what amounts to duplicate data entry.  It's really quite ridiculous!

I agree, that's a waste of everybody's time. Nowadays, our (electronic)tax form comes mostly pre-filled with known data, we only have to check it, and add/change things that may have changed. There are fewer and fewer deductables, most of it is captured in a progressive tax level with a threshold before any tax needs to be paid (which takes care of people with part-time or without income). And it can still be simplified more.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #405 on: April 10, 2017, 02:10:01 pm »

An observation-based constraint on permafrost loss as a function of global warming:
http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nclimate3262.html

If countries do not meet the Paris agreements, then an amount of permafrost soil larger than Australia will thaw. This will release captured methane to the atmosphere, which will accelerate the warming up of our earth.

Permafrost, that can be found near the polar circles and at high altitude in mountains, appears to be more sensitive to warming up than was considered before.

For each degree C warming of the earth, 4 million square kilometers of permafrost will be lost. A global increase of 2 degrees, as was set as the high goal in the Paris agreement, will thaw 40% of all permafrost on earth.

It is estimated that approx. 35 million people live in cities and vilages built on permafrost. Thawing of that soil will cause instability, and could lead to collapse of buildings and infrastructure.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #406 on: April 10, 2017, 04:50:49 pm »

Fact? 'Similar' temperatures and ocean acidification????

"What is coral bleaching?
When corals are stressed by changes in conditions such as temperature, light, or nutrients, they expel the symbiotic algae living in their tissues, causing them to turn completely white."

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/coral_bleach.html

Cheers,
Bart

Bart,
I'm not denying that coral bleaching takes place. I'm questioning the connection of the bleaching to anthropogenic global warming.

If there's a rise in temperature due to a heat wave during a one or two year period, then some degree of bleaching might be expected, but the locals have observed that the reef recovers, and some scientists claim such events have been occurring periodically for the past thousand years or more. Okay?
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #407 on: April 10, 2017, 05:50:09 pm »

An observation-based constraint on permafrost loss as a function of global warming:
http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nclimate3262.html

If countries do not meet the Paris agreements, then an amount of permafrost soil larger than Australia will thaw. This will release captured methane to the atmosphere, which will accelerate the warming up of our earth.

Permafrost, that can be found near the polar circles and at high altitude in mountains, appears to be more sensitive to warming up than was considered before.

For each degree C warming of the earth, 4 million square kilometers of permafrost will be lost. A global increase of 2 degrees, as was set as the high goal in the Paris agreement, will thaw 40% of all permafrost on earth.

It is estimated that approx. 35 million people live in cities and vilages built on permafrost. Thawing of that soil will cause instability, and could lead to collapse of buildings and infrastructure.

Cheers,
Bart
35 million people can become farmers. All that land will become arable. You never mention the benefits of global warming only the negatives.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #408 on: April 10, 2017, 05:56:02 pm »

Reduced overspending, and bearing a more collective burden.

Reduced partisanship also helps to create more sustained policies, instead of wasteful flip/flopping and repealing.

Cheers,
Bart
Everybody wants more stuff as long as someone else is paying for it.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #409 on: April 10, 2017, 06:01:56 pm »

Alan,
I'm not going to get down in the weeds here.  the blunt fact is that the US is 1) under taxed for the what the citizens want and 2) the tax code is riddled with give aways to all  sorts of interests.  Get a copy of Reid's book.  It's only about 300 pages and you will be filled with outrage after reading it.  We can have lower tax rates if we do away with all the tax preferences and raise enough money to fund everything you mention.
I don't have time to read a book. Could you summarize what his suggestions are in a couple of sentenses? . Thanks.

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #410 on: April 10, 2017, 06:23:32 pm »

35 million people can become farmers. All that land will become arable. You never mention the benefits of global warming only the negatives.

Not there. Barns and other buildings would start falling, outdoor ice caches would collapse, tractors would sink and polar bears could become a real pest.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 06:27:17 pm by LesPalenik »
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #411 on: April 10, 2017, 07:30:42 pm »

For each degree C warming of the earth, 4 million square kilometers of permafrost will be lost.

And 4 million square kilometers of agricultural land will be gained.

This highlights one of the great absurdities of AGW alarmism. On the one hand there is alarm created about our inability to sustain a growing population, or even the current population with adequate food supplies, and on the other hand there is alarm about increasing CO2 levels which have the effect of increasing crop growth.

If a doubling of CO2 levels results, on average, in a 30% increase in crop yield, as many studies indicate, then the current world-wide food production is about 12-15% greater than it would be if CO2 levels were at preindustrial levels.

If CO2 levels rise to 560 ppm within the next 40 years or so, world-wide crop production will be around 30% greater as a result, compared with preindustrial levels of CO2. That's a very significant benefit.

When the ice in Greenland began melting in the 10th century AD, the Vikings took advantage of that change in climate and emigrated to the country which was then uninhabited. They grew crops, raised cattle, and flourished until the start of the Little Ice Age.

If we are as smart as the Vikings were (and some of us are), then we should encourage migration to the areas where the permafrost is melting, and grow the appropriate crops for the climate.

Some people are already doing this. Here's one story of such a farmer.
http://modernfarmer.com/2014/01/permafrost-farming-possible/

"Undaunted by the conditions, Meyers, 59, together with his wife Lisa, has dedicated the past six years of his life to growing organic food on 17 acres of permafrost for his hometown of Bethel, Alaska. (With 6,000 residents, it’s the largest community on the delta.)
To get at the soil, Meyers first had to develop a method for thawing it, a two-year process of clearing and amending each field with manure, composted tundra and a “slurry” of salmon, some lake water and a small amount of dry molasses to “increase biological life”. Raised beds and high tunnels help mitigate the cold temperatures and short growing season, and a vast underground root cellar stores and extends the lifespan of the harvest."


As the permafrost gradually thaws through natural processes, the work of such farmers will become easier and more land will become available.

I've often wondered 'what is wrong with these AGW alarmists?' What's the problem? Why the insistence on sequestering CO2 from coal-fired power plants when CO2 is proven to be such a great help in greening our planet?

My explanation is that most people are sequestered in cities and removed from the natural processes of nature. They want to keep things the same, apparently oblivious to the fact that continual change is unavoidable. It's a fact of life and the universe. Everything is in a continual process of change.

We survive according to our capacity to adapt, and this process has been continuing for the past 6 million years with regard to the development of Homo Sapiens. If we fail to adapt, we perish. Using CO2 levels as a control knob is not adaption. It's an attempt at power and control based upon extreme hubris, like a Communist dictator or tyrant trying to control his subjects.

Civilizations in the past which have perished due to 'natural' climate changes, have collapsed because of their inability to adapt to the changing conditions. They were set in their ways.

In our modern era, we have the tremendous advantage of understanding the historical changes in 'natural' climate which have not only caused havoc to entire civilizations in the past, but which regularly cause havoc in local regions today, in terms of floods, droughts and hurricanes, which the AR5 IPCC report admits are not necessarily increasing in frequency and severity.

Adaption is the key, not arrogant control.

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #412 on: April 11, 2017, 07:11:32 am »

I don't have time to read a book. Could you summarize what his suggestions are in a couple of sentenses? . Thanks.
Sent you an email.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #413 on: April 11, 2017, 04:59:57 pm »

This one's for Ray:  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/science/carbon-dioxide-plant-growth-antarctic-ice.html  interesting article on CO2 and increased plant growth .   This shows that I'm open minded on the topic.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #414 on: April 11, 2017, 07:42:22 pm »

This one's for Ray:  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/science/carbon-dioxide-plant-growth-antarctic-ice.html  interesting article on CO2 and increased plant growth .   This shows that I'm open minded on the topic.
That's what Ray's been saying in his posts here.  That CO2 makes for greater plant growth.  I didn't know of that but assumed just from a logical standpoint that as the earth warms, more cold areas getting warmer will be able to support trees, grass, and all the animals and plants and insects that can expand on to those areas which are relatively barren now because the climate was cold there.  For every polar bear that may be lost because of the warming in the Arctic, there' additional land warmed up enough to support a extra grizzly or brown bear. 

Who says that how the climate was 100 years ago was the optimum?  It may turn out that an extra 2-3 degrees may prove better overall to the world. 

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #415 on: April 11, 2017, 08:37:11 pm »

That's what Ray's been saying in his posts here.  That CO2 makes for greater plant growth.  I didn't know of that but assumed just from a logical standpoint that as the earth warms, more cold areas getting warmer will be able to support trees, grass, and all the animals and plants and insects that can expand on to those areas which are relatively barren now because the climate was cold there.  For every polar bear that may be lost because of the warming in the Arctic, there' additional land warmed up enough to support a extra grizzly or brown bear. 

Who says that how the climate was 100 years ago was the optimum?  It may turn out that an extra 2-3 degrees may prove better overall to the world.

Grizzlies have certain charm, but polar bears are just more photogenic. They eat seals, and thus help the fish population. Unlike grizzlies who feed on valuable salmons and sometimes even livestock.

Beside, at one time grizzlies roamed through most the western United States, but something must have happened what caused their demise. Could be exposure to lethal metals. As a matter of fact, grizzly bears were eliminated from 98% of their original range in the contiguous United States during a 100-year period.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #416 on: April 11, 2017, 08:56:40 pm »

Grizzlies have certain charm, but polar bears are just more photogenic. They eat seals, and thus help the fish population. Unlike grizzlies who feed on valuable salmons and sometimes even livestock.

Beside, at one time grizzlies roamed through most the western United States, but something must have happened what caused their demise. Could be exposure to lethal metals. As a matter of fact, grizzly bears were eliminated from 98% of their original range in the contiguous United States during a 100-year period.
Polar bears eat seals!  How disgusting.  Those cute animals I used to throw a little fish to in the zoo when I was a kid?  Well, I for one, am glad we're making polar bear ranges smaller and giving grizzlies a better shot.  Anyway, after taking all their territory away, I think we owe grizzlies. 

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #417 on: April 11, 2017, 09:22:17 pm »

Polar bears eat seals!  How disgusting.  Those cute animals I used to throw a little fish to in the zoo when I was a kid?  Well, I for one, am glad we're making polar bear ranges smaller and giving grizzlies a better shot.  Anyway, after taking all their territory away, I think we owe grizzlies.

Worse yet, the seals eat cod (and other good fish).
Canadian kids (at least the ones in the north) also eat seals. Seal meat is lean with less than two per cent fat, much lower than 12 to 27 per cent fat in other store-bought meats, and without any antibiotics, steroids, and herbicides.

At one time, Paul McCartney was pressured by his wife Heather going onto an ice floe north of Prince Edward Island in Canada for a much publicized photo-op with a baby seal, allegedly to protect them. Well, they didn't last long on the ice flow, and soon after Heather divorced him with a $48 mililon settlement, while the harp seal population in the North Atlantic in Canada between 1970 and 2012 tripled to 7.2 million fish eating monsters. They also stink to high heaven - seals that is.

Later, McCartney said that it was the biggest mistake of his life. Not sure, if he meant marrying Heather or going out on that ice floe.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 12:20:02 am by LesPalenik »
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billbane

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #418 on: April 12, 2017, 12:08:59 am »

What in the world is a site called, "Luminous Landscape" debating climate change for?

I am new here, have lots of views about this issue, but this is weird as a subject on a site for photographers.

I am certain whatever is said is counter-productive to anything luminous.

Go clean your lenses.
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ppmax2

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #419 on: April 12, 2017, 12:44:36 am »

Quote
Adaption is the key, not arrogant control.

So we're arrogant if we want to control...pollution? Or population? Or the extermination of entire species? Or is that somehow different in your mind vs controlling the amount of heat and other gases released into the atmosphere?

::)
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