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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 146785 times)

RSL

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #360 on: April 06, 2017, 10:17:54 am »

The global average temperature was 1.1 degrees Celsius above the value of pre-industrial time.

Right. That pre-industrial period is known as the little ice age. It was damn cold and the cold had absolutely nothing to do with human activity or the lack theeof.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #361 on: April 06, 2017, 10:38:27 am »

Interesting article about the effects of, and requirements for, the mix of renewable energy sources and intermittent use of more traditional power generation as complement for swings in renewable production. It also shows that smaller traditional power generating plants make more sense than huge capacity centralized production for that purpose of complemental generators. Also the Hydro pumped storage is mentioned as a means of complementary energy backup.

Renewables won’t drive up cost of electricity from fossil fuel plants:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/04/renewables-wont-drive-up-cost-of-electricity-from-fossil-fuel-plants/

Cheers,
Bart
Bart: Your comment does not reflect the article.  The article says that costs to start-up fossil fuel plants when renewables don't provide the power (no wind or sun) are going to go up during these slack periods.  It costs every time you turn on a fossil fuel plant which is currently 2500 going up to 4500 times a year by 2030.  The 4500 happens because they'll be more renewables, not less.  The article also does not indicate the costs for  building more efficient alternative fossil fuel or hydro plants to replace existing fossil fuel plants.  The costs for non-renewable plants are not going to go away because we have renewables. 

So even if you're saving money on your electric bill, you'll be paying for the running of fossil fuel plants in the form of taxes when the costs to run these plants exceed the income they generate for the plant.  Unfortunately, no one really talks about these other costs.  Nothing is for free. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #362 on: April 06, 2017, 12:15:21 pm »

Bart: Your comment does not reflect the article.

Alan, I does.

Quote
The article says that costs to start-up fossil fuel plants when renewables don't provide the power (no wind or sun) are going to go up during these slack periods.

And it's more than offset by the savings during the periods that the fossil fuel plants do not run.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #363 on: April 06, 2017, 12:26:12 pm »

Great! Thank God for that! The climate in pre-industrial times was awful in Northern Europe.

Really?

Quote
It wasn't the warmest year in Australia since records began, according to our Bureau of Meteorology. It was the fourth warmest.

Yes, and all these 4 highs occurred since 2005.

The highest ranking sea temperatures in the Australian region are Ranks:1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 since 2010.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/annual/aus/2016/annual-summary-table.shtml

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #364 on: April 06, 2017, 12:31:05 pm »

Right. That pre-industrial period is known as the little ice age. It was damn cold ...

It was maybe 0.5 degrees colder than the long term average.

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... and the cold had absolutely nothing to do with human activity or the lack theeof.

It preceded the industrial revolution period since which emissions and temperature broke all upward trends.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #365 on: April 06, 2017, 05:20:28 pm »

Alan, I does.

And it's more than offset by the savings during the periods that the fossil fuel plants do not run.

Cheers,
Bart
I didn't argue that wind and solar do not provide a savings.  My point is that solar promoters do not include the costs to continue running fossil fuel plants to provide power during slack periods.  It's the same when global warmists only discuss the negative aspects without mentioning the positive ones.  It causes people to feel like they're being deceived by those with an agenda. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #366 on: April 06, 2017, 05:59:05 pm »

I didn't argue that wind and solar do not provide a savings.  My point is that solar promoters do not include the costs to continue running fossil fuel plants to provide power during slack periods.  It's the same when global warmists only discuss the negative aspects without mentioning the positive ones.  It causes people to feel like they're being deceived by those with an agenda.

It seems obvious, to me anyway, that solar alone is not a solution, if only for the reason that the sun doesn't shine 24/7 (at most latitudes anyway) 365.25 days a year. Solar power does have the benefit that there is more energy available than we could possibly need, so we need to manage the fluctuations, latitude dependencies, and improve the conversion efficiency.

So we'll need a combination of techniques, in a gradual transition towards technology that is reliable, safe, and able to generate much more energy than needed to get it going, consistently. If we can avoid poisoning the ecosphere called earth in the process, that's a big bonus.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #367 on: April 06, 2017, 09:46:28 pm »

It was maybe 0.5 degrees colder than the long term average.

It preceded the industrial revolution period since which emissions and temperature broke all upward trends.

Cheers,
Bart

It's to be expected that there will be a degree of uncertainty about comparisons with previous warm periods when small fractions of a degree in temperature are involved. However, there is a significant number of studies that indicate the Medieval Warm Period was at least as warm as the present, and likely warmer. To quote from the following article:

"The Science and Public Policy Institute reported in May 2009: “More than 700 scientists from 400 institutions in 40 countries have contributed peer-reviewed papers providing evidence that the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was real, global, and warmer than the present. And the numbers grow larger daily.”

http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/03/08/more-than-700-scientists-from-400-institutions-in-40-countries-have-contributed-peerreviewed-papers-providing-evidence-that-the-medieval-warm-period-was-real-global-warmer-than-the-present/

The field of Climatology is comprised of many scientific disciplines, such as Geology, Paleontology, Geophysics, Geochemistry, and so on. I would suggest that the accuracy of the record of past climate changes have a much higher level of confidence than the computer projections of future changes in climate.

Here's a graph of recent past climate changes, from the Geological perspective, showing that the Roman Warm Period, or Roman Climate-Optimum, was warmer than today. Those of you who tend  towards being unbiased, might find the following article, from where the graph was taken, to be very informative. However, I issue a warning to those of you who are alarmed about the dangers of anthropogenic climate change. Reading this article might cause even more alarm than you are already experiencing, resulting in a visit to a psychologist.  ;)

http://climate.geologist-1011.net/


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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #368 on: April 07, 2017, 07:17:24 am »

Interesting article about scientific publishing and info warfare: info war.
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Robert

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #369 on: April 07, 2017, 08:28:26 am »

"The Science and Public Policy Institute reported in May 2009:

That's already terribly dated, as is the chart you copied and attached.

Quote
I would suggest that the accuracy of the record of past climate changes have a much higher level of confidence than the computer projections of future changes in climate.

Duh, hindsight has 20/20 vision.

Quote
Here's a graph of recent past climate changes, from the Geological perspective, showing that the Roman Warm Period, or Roman Climate-Optimum, was warmer than today.

That chart has many drawbacks, the biggest of which is that it is dated (both in the assessment of the past, and it is clearly missing the latest exponential changes of recent years).

If we look at e.g. the USGCRP research program's 2017 report:
Source: http://www.globalchange.gov/browse/reports/our-changing-planet-FY-2017
The report itself: https://downloads.globalchange.gov/ocp/ocp2017/Our-Changing-Planet_FY-2017_full.pdf

About CO2, "2014 emissions were the highest in human history, and 60% higher than in 1990".
About Methane, "The GCP released a review draft of the Second Global Methane Budget (GMB) in July 2016, estimating that or the period 2000-2012, human activities accounted for about 60% of global methane emissions."

Nature is trying to absorb some of that, but that process is also tripping up other delicately balanced interactions.

From Highlight 7. Modeling Ice Sheets and Sea-Level Rise, of that report:
"Recent evidence has revealed that the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets are not as static as once thought.
Accelerated ice loss from the Greenland Ice Sheet, disintegrating ice shelves around Antarctica, and signs that
several marine-terminating glaciers in Antarctica have begun an irreversible retreat all signal that changes
are taking place faster than was thought possible
. Ice sheets are projected to contribute significantly to global
sea-level rise, which poses dramatic risks for coastal communities and island nations worldwide
"

Only using dated information, especially when the changes are of an exponential nature, is gullible at best, but more likely it's deliberately misguiding.

And the obvious elephant in the room remains that we are comparing trends with events that are already affected by human activity. So, the more recent basis for comparison is already artificially modified by human behavior, which makes further increases (leading to exponential growing arthropogenic contributions) even more troublesome.

Cheers,
Bart
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LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #370 on: April 07, 2017, 08:54:33 am »

Thursday, April 6, 2017, 6:16 PM    
Over the past week, the town of Gander in Newfoundland has received over 130 cm of snow. With 241 cm currently on the ground, Gander has broken an all-time record snow depth of 174 cm set in 2004. "I remember in the 60s we used to get a lot of snow, but I moved to Gander in 1974 and I have to say this is the most that I've ever seen this late in the season."
While clear skies have allowed residents in Gander, Newfoundland, to dig out of the province's latest blizzard, a new system is set to deliver a swath of rain, which has Gander mayor Claude Elliott feeling unsettled.


The weather in Toronto has been also very extreme and not so predictable.
Last night, here on the northern outskirts of Toronto, we got 15cm snow accumulation and half-a-meter snow drifts, with wet snow still falling and adding to the snow cover. Forecast is 17C for Sunday, and 23C for Monday, so I'm not going to shovel it anymore.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 08:59:35 am by LesPalenik »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #371 on: April 07, 2017, 09:18:30 am »

I didn't argue that wind and solar do not provide a savings.  My point is that solar promoters do not include the costs to continue running fossil fuel plants to provide power during slack periods.  It's the same when global warmists only discuss the negative aspects without mentioning the positive ones.  It causes people to feel like they're being deceived by those with an agenda.

Of all the (serious) reports I have read about solar and wind power generation it has been mentioned over and over that there is a need for either storage of energy and/or other power plants that can fill in the gaps. If these other power plants can be based on biofuels and the need be reduced significantly over time then fossil power plants can be retired, but not before that and there is a cost of having backup. I have not seen serious analysis denying that or even omitting this fact.

Btw. the total electric power consumption in the US in 2008 was 3,814 Twh according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_energy_consumption . The average consumption per day was then 10.4 Twh. If the total electric energy consumption was to be stored for just one day (ignoring peaks) by batteries coming from the Tesla Gigafactory built out to 150Gwh/year then it would need 7 Gigafactories to produce batteries for 10 years. Just to put this into perspective. Not impossible. At a production price of $810 per Kwh the price per Twh battery storage is $810 M so the 10.4 Twh would cost a little over $8 B. This is just for the battery packs and then comes cost of the infrastructure around it. The pricing of the power packs are here from one year ago https://electrek.co/2016/04/22/tesla-energy-powerpacks-pricing/ and these prices goes time over time. Looking at Tesla's homepage https://www.tesla.com/powerpack/design#/ now the price per Kwh is down to about 50% of that number from 1 year ago. So of course this is a bit of a superficial example and if all transport in cars were to be electric the total power consumption would go up a lot.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 09:21:51 am by Hans Kruse »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #372 on: April 07, 2017, 09:30:01 am »

Thursday, April 6, 2017, 6:16 PM    
Over the past week, the town of Gander in Newfoundland has received over 130 cm of snow. With 241 cm currently on the ground, Gander has broken an all-time record snow depth of 174 cm set in 2004. "I remember in the 60s we used to get a lot of snow, but I moved to Gander in 1974 and I have to say this is the most that I've ever seen this late in the season."

Yes, significant weather events are becoming more common.

However, the problem with the climate change deniers is that they'll just use global figures, where the droughts in parts of the world (like where there are currently some 20 million people in East Africa at risk of dying from forced displacement and famine) are somewhat leveled by superfluous precipitation in others.

Sad, and as for some governments in this world, it borders on criminal neglect or even intent.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #373 on: April 07, 2017, 09:39:15 pm »

Yes, significant weather events are becoming more common.

However, the problem with the climate change deniers is that they'll just use global figures, where the droughts in parts of the world (like where there are currently some 20 million people in East Africa at risk of dying from forced displacement and famine) are somewhat leveled by superfluous precipitation in others.

Sad, and as for some governments in this world, it borders on criminal neglect or even intent.

Cheers,
Bart

What you've written above, Bart, is unscientific, inconsistent, false or at best misleading.

There are no climate change deniers among those who know anything about science and/or climate. The first thing that anyone learns about climate, who is at all interested, is that climate is always changing. It always has changed in the past, and it is expected that it will continue to change in the future, with a high degree of confidence.

The term you should be using is 'Anthropogenic Climate Change Skeptic', that is, a person who is skeptical about the claimed certainty that rising levels of atmospheric CO2 from human emissions is the main driving force behind the current warming phase.

A necessary part of all scientific investigation is precision of language. If someone doesn't even know the difference between denialism and skepticism, how can he be trusted to make unbiased comments on the very complex subject of climate.

It is not just the skeptics who use global figures, but the alarmists. However, it is the skeptics who point out the enormous difficulty in getting a precise global average temperature. Imagine if you were to try to get an average temperature of your 3-bedroom house with just one thermometer placed in the middles of one room.

Imagine the even greater difficulty of getting an accurate average global temperature with a mere few thousand temperature gauges placed around the world, many of them situated at airports and urbanized areas where the 'Urban Heat Island' effect causes a bias in temperature that has be adjusted for (but probably isn't always adjusted, or at least accurately adjusted).

The term 'global warming' has no meaning in the absence of an average global temperature.

Quote
Yes, significant weather events are becoming more common.

And you say this despite my bringing to your attention, in the Trump thread, the view of the latest AR5 IPCC summary on this issue of extreme weather events. That's what I call true denialism.

To refresh your memory, here's a summary of the current IPCC view on extreme weather events, in the AR5.

“Overall, the most robust global changes in climate extremes are seen in measures of daily temperature, including to some extent, heat waves. Precipitation extremes also appear to be increasing, but there is large spatial variability"

"There is limited evidence of changes in extremes associated with other climate variables since the mid-20th century”

“Current datasets indicate no significant observed trends in global tropical cyclone frequency over the past century … No robust trends in annual numbers of tropical storms, hurricanes and major hurricanes counts have been identified over the past 100 years in the North Atlantic basin”

“In summary, there continues to be a lack of evidence and thus low confidence regarding the sign of trend in the magnitude and/or frequency of floods on a global scale”

“In summary, there is low confidence in observed trends in small-scale severe weather phenomena such as hail and thunderstorms because of historical data inhomogeneities and inadequacies in monitoring systems”

“In summary, the current assessment concludes that there is not enough evidence at present to suggest more than low confidence in a global-scale observed trend in drought or dryness (lack of rainfall) since the middle of the 20th century due to lack of direct observations, geographical inconsistencies in the trends, and dependencies of inferred trends on the index choice. Based on updated studies, AR4 conclusions regarding global increasing trends in drought since the 1970s were probably overstated. However, it is likely that the frequency and intensity of drought has increased in the Mediterranean and West Africa and decreased in central North America and north-west Australia since 1950”

“In summary, confidence in large scale changes in the intensity of extreme extratropical cyclones since 1900 is low”


Quote
...there are currently some 20 million people in East Africa at risk of dying from forced displacement and famine....Sad, and as for some governments in this world, it borders on criminal neglect or even intent

The really sad part is the assumption of many governments that reducing CO2 levels will fix the climate and make it more benign so that people who live in arid regions where famine is a common occurrence will eventually be able to grow more food.

Famines have always occurred throughout history. In this modern global community we know (technically) how to fix the problem, with food aid, the building of infrastructure, the transportation of water from where it's more plentiful, the teaching of the local people to adapt to different farming techniques and grow different crops that are more suitable to the climate, and so on. All this requires lots of cheap energy, as well as cooperation from corrupt and self-serving governments.

As I've mentioned before, elevated levels of CO2 have a tremendously beneficial effect of greening the planet and increasing crop production. This CO2 fertilization effect is even more pronounced when plants are water-stressed, as they are when poor people are struggling to grow their crops in arid regions.

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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #374 on: April 07, 2017, 09:55:14 pm »

Of all the (serious) reports I have read about solar and wind power generation it has been mentioned over and over that there is a need for either storage of energy and/or other power plants that can fill in the gaps. If these other power plants can be based on biofuels and the need be reduced significantly over time then fossil power plants can be retired, but not before that and there is a cost of having backup. I have not seen serious analysis denying that or even omitting this fact.

Btw. the total electric power consumption in the US in 2008 was 3,814 Twh according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_energy_consumption . The average consumption per day was then 10.4 Twh. If the total electric energy consumption was to be stored for just one day (ignoring peaks) by batteries coming from the Tesla Gigafactory built out to 150Gwh/year then it would need 7 Gigafactories to produce batteries for 10 years. Just to put this into perspective. Not impossible. At a production price of $810 per Kwh the price per Twh battery storage is $810 M so the 10.4 Twh would cost a little over $8 B. This is just for the battery packs and then comes cost of the infrastructure around it. The pricing of the power packs are here from one year ago https://electrek.co/2016/04/22/tesla-energy-powerpacks-pricing/ and these prices goes time over time. Looking at Tesla's homepage https://www.tesla.com/powerpack/design#/ now the price per Kwh is down to about 50% of that number from 1 year ago. So of course this is a bit of a superficial example and if all transport in cars were to be electric the total power consumption would go up a lot.
Regarding , your first paragraph, serious analysis may include the positive aspect of global warming.  Unfortunately, the mainstream media mainly pushed the negative.  Every time I watch a nature program, the underlying comment is that man is bad and hurts the environment.  Business is bad and hurts the environment and never do you hear how business feed millions of people and provides protection for their families.  It's always about the negative.

Regarding your second paragraph, I am positive there isn't one person in one hundred that could understand it without spending an hour just to get through it.  It is so convoluted and obtuse, adding complicated references that one has to link to and read, that frankly, I don't understand it's point at all.   Can you sum it up in simple English? 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #375 on: April 08, 2017, 08:42:48 am »

Aggressive emissions cutbacks would drop heat waves in half in 20 years:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/04/aggressive-emissions-cutbacks-would-drop-heat-waves-in-half-in-20-years/

Here's an excerpt from the original article and a link to the paid version:
http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nclimate3259.html

Cheers,
Bart
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kers

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #376 on: April 08, 2017, 09:14:49 am »

To put it in some other perspective:

What we are doing at the moment in this carbon burn industrial age is finding all sources of carbon stored in the ground, bring it to the surface and burn it.
The result is that the atmosphere changes from content.
The atmosphere is a very delicate part of the earths system and the easiest to bring out of balance because it has very little mass.
At the same time the perfect balance of the atmosphere is very important to the climate on the surface of the earth.
Humans, animals and plants are very sensitive to any change of it. Humans may adapt to the changes quicker than the animals and plants.
On a microlevel the burning of carbon fuels pollutes the environment.
That a large majority of scientists see that the climate is changing because of our bad habits should be taking seriously also for there is no plan B to stop this climatic change.
Furthermore there are indications that climatic change will not be gradual, but that it is possible that when some tresholds are passed the climate may change in a strong way.
So there is enough reason to invest in clean energy, rather than keep coal mines open, that in fact are not so economical.
The damage to the environment and to the health of people they cause has never been part of the economical consideration, but should be.
 
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #377 on: April 08, 2017, 09:47:00 am »

To put it in some other perspective:

What we are doing at the moment in this carbon burn industrial age is finding all sources of carbon stored in the ground, bring it to the surface and burn it.
The result is that the atmosphere changes from content.
The atmosphere is a very delicate part of the earths system and the easiest to bring out of balance because it has very little mass.
At the same time the perfect balance of the atmosphere is very important to the climate on the surface of the earth.
Humans, animals and plants are very sensitive to any change of it. Humans may adapt to the changes quicker than the animals and plants.
On a microlevel the burning of carbon fuels pollutes the environment.
That a large majority of scientists see that the climate is changing because of our bad habits should be taking seriously also for there is no plan B to stop this climatic change.
Furthermore there are indications that climatic change will not be gradual, but that it is possible that when some tresholds are passed the climate may change in a strong way.
So there is enough reason to invest in clean energy, rather than keep coal mines open, that in fact are not so economical.
The damage to the environment and to the health of people they cause has never been part of the economical consideration, but should be.
 
First, we should all be good stewards of the environment.  However, as any other species, we also use the environment to keep us alive and expand our population.  Your argument gives no allowance for the environmental processes that cleans itself and restores balance.  The idea that there is no Plan B sounds like a "scare" to get people to do things as if we're all going to wind up like a crisp from a comet crashing into us.

Even assuming that there is a negative effect from burning fossil fuels, we still have to figure out whether the costs to rid ourselves of carbon fuels outlays the advantages of spending that money for other things like science research, health care, providing electricity to people at lower carbon costs where they have no heating, electricity, etc.  There probably is a middle ground unless you're willing to give up all the convenience of cheap energy like a car, electricity, etc.   

Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #378 on: April 08, 2017, 09:44:42 pm »

Aggressive emissions cutbacks would drop heat waves in half in 20 years:

That's another very misleading and unscientific statement, Bart. A more precise statement would be, 'Aggressive emissions cutbacks might drop heat waves in half in 20 years". (On the other hand, they might not.)
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LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #379 on: April 08, 2017, 10:01:53 pm »

Quote
First, we should all be good stewards of the environment.  However, as any other species, we also use the environment to keep us alive and expand our population.

To be good stewards of the planet is wise.  To expand our population is not.
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