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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 146216 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #140 on: March 30, 2017, 11:21:06 am »

So is forestry.  Should we stop providing lumber to build your house?  In any case, who are you to decide what someone else choses to do to feed their family?  Don't you believe in freedom?  Why do liberals always want to tell others how they should live?  It's not your business.

Intersting that you bring up forestry. I read an article a few years ago (sorry, cannot remember where so no link or reference) about how the forestry industry in western Canada had improved their safety record in the last 20 years or so (30 by now, I guess). They did it by firing their employees and then "outsourcing" the work back to those same people, who were now self-employed contractors. Since forestry companies consisted of office staff, the number of work-related injuries dropped dramatically, consisting mainly of paper cuts and necktie chafing now. Meanwhile those independent lumberjacks, who were all undercutting each other and taking risks on the job because they no longer had workplace safety departments to keep an eye on them, could no longer afford insurance or workman's compensation, and so when they chopped their hands' off with chain saws, well, they were SOL.

I guess from one point of view, this looks like corporate efficiency. But really, all the forestry companies did was to offload those pesky externalities onto the shoulders of those lumberjacks and the provincial guvmints, who had to absorb a few more disabled people onto their welfare rolls. This is NOT a free market at work. Someone PASSED industry regulations to permit this. I wonder who lobbied for that. I bet they used words like "freedom" in their presentations and web sites.

Another really efficient externality is the 190,000 or so derelict and ABANDONED gas and oil well pumping stations on private and/or public lands in Alberta. I bet those oil companies, all fervent believers in the "free" market I'm sure, loved that they could just walk away from those wells. It's so expensive decommissioning them, after all. Much better to let the local municipalities worry about, since they can just tax future generations for the clean-up. And they won't have much choice, unless they prefer having toxic chemicals in the drinking water. Those guvmint taxes are so annoying, aren't they? Yeah, they really limit our freedom.

When I hear or read people talk about how guvmint "interferes" in their lives or messes up the "free market", I just laugh now. It's all unabashed bullsh*t. We have all only ever lived in mixed economies, right from the start because there is no other kind. Capitalism was DESIGNED to work under a public umbrella, it cannot exist otherwise, because market failures have to be corrected or innocent people die. Go read some different books, is my advice.
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Robert

JoeKitchen

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #141 on: March 30, 2017, 11:31:03 am »


When I hear or read people talk about how guvmint "interferes" in their lives or messes up the "free market", I just laugh now.


And when I hear, or read, liberals using "govmint," I automatically assume that they are insulting anyone right of center (regardless of how much), have little ability to actually compromise or construct civil conversations, which adds to the problem of a lack of compromise in this current state, and should most likely just be ignored. 

That, or they truly don't know the proper spelling or pronunciation of government, which is not any better. 
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #142 on: March 30, 2017, 11:54:17 am »

I like to mispell "guvmint", it's an old private joke. Sorry if you don't like it. But go ahead, read any insult you want into it, ignore the issues.

Private enterprise does a lot of things well. If it didn't, we would have gotten rid of it a long time ago. In fact, our culture invented what we now know as the commercial sector, because it suited (suits) our needs. But it is NOT why we are here. It is here to serve us, not the other way around, and I don't get why people don't understand this. It is merely one of the ways that we provide goods and services to one another. And if it fails to serve those needs, we have the freedom and obligation to change how it works. It is subservient to the surrounding culture.

Some insist on analyzing the behaviours of large multinational corporations as if they were the ma and pop store next door. They aren't, things are more complex than that.

Government is not as efficient as private enterprise. Of course it isn't. Why should it be? It does completely different things. Comparing the two, sector by sector, and saying, "see, I told you so", is silly. To be sure, governments occasionally stick their noses into places where it messes things up. The fix for that is NOT TO DO THOSE THINGS that way, it's not to say taxes are bad and shut down government. If your public governance structures have been taken over by corporate lobbying, then change THAT. I believe that is at the root of most of these issues. The government should be neutral, instead it has become the marketing arm of various factions. I don't know who they represent now, but it's not clear that they represent citizens, the people who voted. Too often they represent money, but that's not why they exist. It is a fundamental error.

Let me give another example of a private vs public debate. There is a lot of talk in western Canada about pipelines. They want to ship Alberta crude to the Gulf or other places to be refined. The il industry considers this efficient, because they already own the refineries down there and want to use them. So in this narrow sense, Canada would be shipping crude to the USA and would then buy back refined products. But the new government in Alberta suggested at one point that it might make more sense to have refineries in Alberta. In the larger picture, that might end up being less "efficient", depending on how you want to do the analysis. But maybe, just maybe, there would be lots of other benefit to Alberta (though maybe not the oil companies) to have local refineries. Those benefits are easy to imagine, good local jobs, a trained workforce, control of a strategic resource instead of sending it to another country. So who gets to make that decision? Why should it be left to private oil companies to make that decision? Maybe that's the kind of strategic societal decision that needs to be made by citizens. That's the job of government, it is not the job of private companies, whose self-interest DOES NOT necessarily align with that of the surrounding culture. To twist an old cliche, maybe what's good for General Motors, may not be good for the country.

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Robert

JoeKitchen

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #143 on: March 30, 2017, 11:57:08 am »

I like to mispell "guvmint", it's an old private joke. Sorry if you don't like it. But go ahead, read any insult you want into it, ignore the issues.



I have yet to see "guvmint" used in any other way than a slight to the right.  And considering it is used repeatably in many other forums and liberal sites, and that you are not privately talking to only one or two other people on this forum, I don't buy the it's a private joke excuse.

It is things like this that lead to resentment of and a refusal to work with the other side to solve problems. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 12:01:25 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #144 on: March 30, 2017, 11:59:27 am »

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. I am not a mean spirited person, my questions was straight to the point. As a Portuguese, one of the most shameful moments in my recent country's history was watching our then prime minister, Mr. Barroso, hosting a summit in 2003 in the Azores, where Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair aired their lies about why we need to invade Iraq.

Mr. Barroso has since then moved on to more important jobs has President of EU Commission and today is non.exec chairman in Goldman Sachs. Enough said...
Your original post implied that I approved of going to war, killing people and wasting money based on lies.  That's mean-spirited and downright insulting as well as wrong.  I'm not responsible for what Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush claimed.  You should also be kinder to your own PM Mr. Barroso.  I assume he knew about as much as I did about the facts concerning Iraq.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #145 on: March 30, 2017, 12:00:48 pm »

I have yet to see "guvmint" used in any other way than a slight to the right.

Sorry, this is news to me. It's not the way I use it; as I said, it's a private joke that I got carried with.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #146 on: March 30, 2017, 12:04:22 pm »

Sorry, this is news to me. It's not the way I use it; as I said, it's a private joke that I got carried with.

I can accept this and move on.  It is just annoying to see this and other words misspelled, like "Merica," as if all conservatives have this deep hick redneck accent and are uneducated, which is the context that they are used in. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #147 on: March 30, 2017, 12:10:50 pm »

Where do you find $25.000 rebates for a Tesla?
I was making a point for effect.  Please don't play a "gotcha" game with me as they do with Trump and miss the whole point of my post.  This is a forum.  I'm not submitting a scientific paper.   Rebates are less, up to $9,500 in Louisiana and $14,000 in Ontario.  But the point is poor people are giving money to rich people so some rich guy with a big ego can drive a $100,000+ electric car.  How is that smart?  Or fair?
https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #148 on: March 30, 2017, 12:12:09 pm »

Methane is twenty one times more potent at trapping heat from the sun than carbon dioxide. Though less prevalent in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide, it is the most destructive of the greenhouse gases. It’s not only farting, actually cows’ burping creates almost twenty times more methane than flatulence. Whichever orifice, each individual cow lets out between thirty and fifty gallons of methane per day.  Multiply this by 1.5  billion cattle in the world today, and you have a major catastrophy looming.

I've been recommending Gas-X for bovines.

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #149 on: March 30, 2017, 01:10:15 pm »

Last, and one thing everyone always forgets about, are pharmaceuticals.  Many drugs come from petroleum products, or use a large amount of energy to produce them.  Take away petroleum, and you need a new energy source to not only continue production, but to manufacture the lost products that were harvested and used from petroleum.

That requirement sounds quite obscene, but is probably true.
Considering the prescription pills are the third major source of deaths, the solution would be to drastically curtail their use. Add to it millions of drug-related emergency room visis, and we could save some real money.

"Prescription drugs are now killing far more people than illegal drugs, and while most major causes of preventable deaths are declining, those from prescription drug use are increasing", an analysis of recently released data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) by the Los Angeles Times revealed.

The Times analysis of 2009 death statistics, the most recent available, showed:
"For the first time ever in the US, more people were killed by drugs than motor vehicle accidents"
 
"Modern medical care evolved as a drug-distribution arm of the pharmaceutical industry, not a profession concerned primarily with improving people's health.
What is published in the most prestigious medical journals is no longer careful science, but essentially drug advertisements
." - Dr. Joel Fuhrman in his book Super Immunity
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #150 on: March 30, 2017, 01:21:24 pm »



This is why I feel nuclear is the real answer.  Unfortunately, both sides, here in the USA, don't want to touch it.  No new nuclear power plant has been built since the 1970s, because they are "unsafe."  However, since no nuclear power plant has been built is 40+ year, none of them have modern failsafes, so it is a self fulfilling prophecy.  Also, no politician wants to approve transporting spent fuel throw their district, which creates more problems.  I find it silly no one is advocating nuclear. 

I guess you haven't been reading the papers about Toshiba/Westinghouse bankruptcy.  They have been building two "new" and safer nuclear plants in the southeast and have had all kinds of construction issues with them.  I think the debt level is about $9B according to what I read.  A nuclear plant is far more costly because of the engineering safety requirements than a gas or oil plant.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #151 on: March 30, 2017, 01:25:30 pm »

However, I get the impression that the new EPA rules regarding CO2 emissions, which came into effect later, and which Trump has now attempted to remove, would have blocked the development of any more of these advanced, low emission, coal power plants. Is this not true?
Those types of coal power plans would probably pass as they are pretty close to the efficiency of a gas fired one (though I'm not an engineering expert in this field).  I don't think the Obama rules anticipated that there would not be any coal plants.  The key issue is efficiency since both types of plants emit CO2 (as does the gas fired furnace in my home!!!!!  Damn, I'm a polluter!!!!  Better get a CO2 sequestration unit set up for next winter).
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #152 on: March 30, 2017, 01:29:40 pm »


You've nailed it. ... And CFCs are still in use throughout the world, including the USA
I think only in legacy stuff.  Any new equipment (HVAC, freezers, etc.) cannot use CFCs.  We went through the same thing in the pharmaceutical industry.  Metered dose inhalers used CFCs as they are inert when inhaled.  All the inhalers had to be reformulated even though the amount of CFCs used was minuscule.  It was a significant expense as the inhalers had to be tested for stability of the active ingredient with the new propellant.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #153 on: March 30, 2017, 01:34:30 pm »

That requirement sounds quite obscene, but is probably true.
Considering the prescription pills are the third major source of deaths, the solution would be to drastically curtail their use. Add to it millions of drug-related emergency room visis, and we could save some real money.

"Prescription drugs are now killing far more people than illegal drugs, and while most major causes of preventable deaths are declining, those from prescription drug use are increasing", an analysis of recently released data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) by the Los Angeles Times revealed.

The Times analysis of 2009 death statistics, the most recent available, showed:
"For the first time ever in the US, more people were killed by drugs than motor vehicle accidents"
 
"Modern medical care evolved as a drug-distribution arm of the pharmaceutical industry, not a profession concerned primarily with improving people's health.
What is published in the most prestigious medical journals is no longer careful science, but essentially drug advertisements
." - Dr. Joel Fuhrman in his book Super Immunity
As one who spent almost his entire working career in this industry, I take issue with your post.  Let's not conflate the abuse of opioids with the life saving properties of the other 99% of pharmaceuticals.  As to the quote by Fuhrnan, he presents himself as a fool of the first order.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #154 on: March 30, 2017, 01:40:34 pm »

I guess you haven't been reading the papers about Toshiba/Westinghouse bankruptcy.  They have been building two "new" and safer nuclear plants in the southeast and have had all kinds of construction issues with them.  I think the debt level is about $9B according to what I read.  A nuclear plant is far more costly because of the engineering safety requirements than a gas or oil plant.

I have not been following that.  Anyway, your post goes to my point, that being that fossil fuels will still be used because they are much more efficient than any other form of energy.  There is no way around this; the amount of energy gained far surpasses the amount of energy used. 

However, if we were to ween ourselves off of fossil fuels and needed an alternate fuel that produces more energy than it uses and can produce it continuously, nuclear seems to be the only option.  Geothermal is another, but is limited to where it can be built. 

I doubt hydrogen will ever make it either.  Most hydrogen used today is drilled for, and production from other sources uses fossil fuels.  Splitting water, a possibility, uses too much energy and more then what you get.  Essentially the application of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 01:45:04 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #155 on: March 30, 2017, 01:59:14 pm »

I have not been following that.  Anyway, your post goes to my point, that being that fossil fuels will still be used because they are much more efficient than any other form of energy.  There is no way around this; the amount of energy gained far surpasses the amount of energy used. 

However, if we were to ween ourselves off of fossil fuels and needed an alternate fuel that produces more energy than it uses and can produce it continuously, nuclear seems to be the only option.  Geothermal is another, but is limited to where it can be built. 

I doubt hydrogen will ever make it either.  Most hydrogen used today is drilled for, and production from other sources uses fossil fuels.  Splitting water, a possibility, uses too much energy and more then what you get.  Essentially the application of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
It's not so much the efficiency but rather Mother Nature took care of all the hard chemistry by taking all the really old biomass and converting it to hydrocarbon usable material (oil, gas, & coal) over a great many (really a great many) years.  So of course those sources start off with a huge advantage in that they are usable almost right out of the ground.  Nuclear is a good source of energy but requires complicated engineering and of course the fuel source is highly toxic (you won't die from handling a piece of coal).

Hydrogen might be a possibility down the line if they can come up with some better catalytic ways of making it (of course it's also highly flammable as anyone who has seen the film loop of the Hindenberg fire).  Plant based fuel has high energy inputs which require subsidies though processing of used cooking oil to diesel has a pretty decent return (there are several collectors in the DC area that get used oil from restaurants for processing).

I think you are giving solar and wind not enough credit.  There are some areas where it is highly efficient and costs have come way down.  It's never going to power more than 20% of the grid in the US but I think it can get to that point economically.
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LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #156 on: March 30, 2017, 02:04:39 pm »

As one who spent almost his entire working career in this industry, I take issue with your post.  Let's not conflate the abuse of opioids with the life saving properties of the other 99% of pharmaceuticals.  As to the quote by Fuhrnan, he presents himself as a fool of the first order.

Dr. Fuhrman is just one of many who stands up against the established practices in the pharma industry.

Here are more facts:
In a June 2010 report in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, study authors said that in looking over records that spanned from 1976 to 2006 (the most recent year available) they found that, of 62 million death certificates, almost a quarter-million deaths were coded as having occurred in a hospital setting due to medication errors.

An estimated 450,000 preventable medication-related adverse events occur in the U.S. every year.

The costs of adverse drug reactions to society are more than $136 billion annually -- greater than the total cost of cardiovascular or diabetic care.
Adverse drug reactions cause injuries or death in one of five hospital patients.

The reason there are so many adverse drug events in the U.S. is that so many drugs are used and prescribed – and many patients receive multiple prescriptions at varying strengths, some of which may counteract each other or cause more severe reactions when combined.

According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, two-hundred and ninety people in the United States are killed by prescription drugs every day.

Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone. (Singh Gurkirpal, MD. Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy reported in The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998) - and that's just aspirin
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 02:14:16 pm by LesPalenik »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #157 on: March 30, 2017, 02:16:41 pm »

It's not so much the efficiency but rather Mother Nature took care of all the hard chemistry by taking all the really old biomass and converting it to hydrocarbon usable material (oil, gas, & coal) over a great many (really a great many) years.  So of course those sources start off with a huge advantage in that they are usable almost right out of the ground.  Nuclear is a good source of energy but requires complicated engineering and of course the fuel source is highly toxic (you won't die from handling a piece of coal).

Hydrogen might be a possibility down the line if they can come up with some better catalytic ways of making it (of course it's also highly flammable as anyone who has seen the film loop of the Hindenberg fire).  Plant based fuel has high energy inputs which require subsidies though processing of used cooking oil to diesel has a pretty decent return (there are several collectors in the DC area that get used oil from restaurants for processing).

I think you are giving solar and wind not enough credit.  There are some areas where it is highly efficient and costs have come way down.  It's never going to power more than 20% of the grid in the US but I think it can get to that point economically.

Yes, of course the mother nature part for fossil fuels is where that huge gain from little input comes from. 

I also do think solar and wind can be part of the solution, but, as you said, 20% is really the end goal.  That leaves 80% to get from somewhere else though. 

I am anti-fossil fuels and would like to see us stop using it sooner then later.  Nuclear works now; it is the only definitive alternative we currently have. 

Perhaps use nuclear in isolated geographies to split water and ship hydrogen elsewhere?  Although you do need to get the water from somewhere, which cancels out the AZ. 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #158 on: March 30, 2017, 03:06:42 pm »

Hydrogen could be a good source, but the most efficient way to produce hydrogen uses a large amount of fossil fuels, so it does not really decrease the use of fossil fuels.  Not to mention, the amount of energy you need to produce hydrogen is more then what you get out of using it.

Well, we'll figure it out, if the research is not defunded or discouraged ... 
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/03/solar-cell-produces-hydrogen-to-light-the-night/

Cheers,
Bart
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Hans Kruse

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #159 on: March 30, 2017, 03:14:02 pm »

I was making a point for effect.  Please don't play a "gotcha" game with me as they do with Trump and miss the whole point of my post.  This is a forum.  I'm not submitting a scientific paper.   Rebates are less, up to $9,500 in Louisiana and $14,000 in Ontario.  But the point is poor people are giving money to rich people so some rich guy with a big ego can drive a $100,000+ electric car.  How is that smart?  Or fair?
https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives

Yes, but why make such an exaggerated number? In fact you don't have to be a rich guy to get a Tesla model S and drive it. You can buy a nice second hand for $40-50.000 and have very low running costs on the level of a mass market car.
Don't forget that the Tesla highend cars were there to begin with for a purpose. To lay the foundation for the model 3 which will begin product this year. The model 3 is $35.000 entry level car and with incentives (as long as they last) will be a mass market car. Is it not smart of Tesla to do it this way? Don't you think this have already woken up the entire car industry? It certainly has.

Btw. I think it is very reasonable to have incentives in EV's and do not forget that the phase out starts at car number 200.000 produced and sold in the US. Then after two years (I believe) it is zero from the federal level. I'm not sure if the state level incentives are regulated this way. In California it is $10.000 on a car. So for a Tesla this is a much lower percentage than e.g. a Bolt at $37.500 - $10.000 = $27.500. So I don't really see the unfairness. Compared to fossilcars the emissions from them should be taxed instead. Elon Musk has said many times that he would actually favor a situation with no subsidies as long as the fossil burning was taxed.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 03:49:11 pm by Hans Kruse »
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