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Author Topic: Digital versus Film  (Read 9914 times)

HughScot

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Digital versus Film
« on: July 28, 2006, 12:27:32 am »

As a total newbie to this site I hope this query will not offend anyone.   Many times I am asked by people who grew up with film if digital is really as good.   I think it is but is there a definitive answer to this question?   I have read that HP engineers have estimated that film has about the equivalent of 30 megapixels.    

 Hugh
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Anon E. Mouse

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006, 04:50:51 am »

They are both good.

They both have strengths and weaknesses.

There is no real way for translating film into MP. It depends on many factors and there is no standardized method. The "best" number I have seen for the equivalent pixel resolution of ISO 100 35mm slide film to be about 11 - 13 MP.

Photography is not just about resolving power.

Any claims of "superiority" for one or the other are simply biased.
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n1x0n

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 04:51:27 am »

Quote
As a total newbie to this site I hope this query will not offend anyone.
Hi there... first try to adress this querry using the site search engine  

Than... be ready for at least a 100 different opinions on this matter.
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dwdallam

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 06:39:18 am »

Digital is better if you mean comparing 8-16 MP backs to 35mm film and not drum scanning every 35mm film image you take. Digital dynamic range is better, saturation can be better than Velvia, you have complete control of white balance, exposure, and all things inbetween, and it is more accurate, you get instant feedback from your LCD screen, you don't have to pay for developing every picture you take, you have complete control of processing your image, not a technician in a film lab, you never need color filters (since you can set WB anytime you want either in camera or in a RAW application), you can get professional quality prints made at Costco on a $180,000 dollar Noritsu digital film printer using Fujifilm Crystal Archive paper for 3.00 at 12 x 18, a 2GB CF card will hold about 130+ images on a back with 13 MPs without changing cards,  and ask yourself this very simple question--if digital is not better than film, why is Kodak no longer going to make film? Digital everything is better than analog anything, or it will be better in a very short time. When I use the word "better" I mean that digital will out-perform in accuracy analog in creating what the ear or eye sees or hears live.

I lifelong photographer and photography store owner (he's in his 60s now and never went digital until after he retired) said the first digital image he printed on his production printer that matched and exceeded 35mm quality was from a 20D. They printed it right out of the camera in jpg with no post processing, and he said at A4 and even larger it was every bit as good as a 35mm and even better--to their eyes. This comparison was done using traditional 35mm enlargement, and not by drum scanning the 35mm neg, which is essentially turning a film image into a digital image and the comparison no longer holds.

Quality aside, just think about this too: You shoot one sunset and you shoot a roll of film, which is 36 exposures. You pay for the film and you pay for the developing of every picture. So before you can even look at your work, you have forked out probably 10.00. I shoot about 1, 000-1,500 images a month when I am in shooting mode, as opposed to cutting mats and getting my stuff ready to show, a month. And that is only shooting near dusk most of the time. I go even higher if I am shooting in more overhead daylight for specific things. So that's about 30 rolls a month, which would cost me 300.00 dollars EACH MONTH just to see my images. That cost, with digital, is effectively 0.0 dollars a month because I can see them on my computer screen immediately.

But for those who think film is or will always be superior to digital, that's cool. You will eventually end up making your own film, however, because film is going the way of the dinosaur, and that isn't because film is superior to digital. That being said, I think it would be a horrible waste of time for someone starting in photography to spend years learning how to use and develop film. I think it would be prudent to have a class--for those majoring in photography--on the history of photography, which would include technical and historical information about film and its limitations, and then a few classes where you take and develop black and white film, just so you now what it entails so you can compare the processes of film and digital for yourself. On the toehr hand, if there are fine art creations that nothing else can be used to create the specific effect other than film, then of course one would need to use film. But the argument that using foilm just because it is "traditional" is an invalid argument. If it were a valid argument, then we should be using Calotype based film because that is even more traditional. And forget about color. That's just not traditional.  And forget about flash guns and go back to putting some flamable powder in a metal trough and lighting it off while having a shutter speed measured in seconds, not milliseconds, because the film is so slow.

Ah well, you see the point.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 06:56:07 am by dwdallam »
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Anon E. Mouse

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 08:49:44 am »

Quote
if digital is not better than film, why is Kodak no longer going to make film?

Can you give a link to that press release? I checked the Kodak site and I did not see anything.
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KenRexach

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 10:47:31 am »

Film is only as good as the Scan you make.

You can have the best film, exposed perfectly using the best glass but if the scan is mediocre (due to user or equipment) then the image will be ok but not great. Developing and stock are also 2 variables.

With everything (developing, scanning, processing) performed at a high level med format film and up are still king IMHO.

But DSLR's offer awesome consistency, shot after shot.
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HughScot

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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 01:58:41 pm »

Thanks guys you confirmed what I was thinking........impossible to compare on a high level.   On other levels digital is as good as film.   I bought my first digital about 8 or 9 years ago after years of film slr's and was told digital would never make it by the salesman at Wolf camera.   How things change.
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dwdallam

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2006, 06:50:04 am »

Quote
Can you give a link to that press release? I checked the Kodak site and I did not see anything.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's because it's not film, but film cameras they are stopping production of. Well, they a re no longer producing black and white paper either. Here is a link t their camera stuff: [a href=\"http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3948032/]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3948032/[/url]
And if you Goolge "Kodak film production" you will find information on the black and white film stopping production. But the writing is on the wall for all film eventually

Here is one from Nikon too:
Nikon Plans to Stop Making Most Cameras That Use Film
Article Tools Sponsored By
By MARTIN FACKLER
Published: January 12, 2006
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/technolo...317d8c&ei=5090&


Here is Canon's vow to not produce anymore film cameras:
"Following on the heels of Nikon, Canon will no longer develop compact and SLR film cameras. While the old models will remain in stores and they will continue to sell and support them, there won't be a new 35mm Rebel in our futures."
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/top/canon-t...tion-176239.php

On another note, here is a little thing from Ken Rockwell, who I respect, but this article is ludicrous.:
"One cannot make double or multiple exposures with digital cameras except for maybe one model of Pentax."

It's full of these idiotic remarks. For instance, why would one want to make a double exposure with a digital camera when you can use compositing with much greater accuracy and quality? Also, if you want a double exposure, you can use a longer shutter speed and just hold a black card over the lens. Pull the card off to capture the next subject, then cover it again. So have fun with that article, but take it with a grain of salt.

Here is another one: Go spend $1,500 on a film camera and you have a fine machine you'll be using to create great images 20 years from now. Spend that same $1,500 on a digital camera and you will have given it to The Salvation Army or Goodwill in three years."

Huh? Digital cameras are getting good enough that a 20D will produce portrait shots good enough for most professionals for years up to A4, and for most portrait stores that don't do big name fashion shoots, but mostly family portraits, etc. I mean it already looks better than they were getting with their portrait cameras. If not, why is Olin Mill's--the great mall shot company--now moving to digital? And if he thinks people will be shooting film in 20 years, he probably still thinks people write books with typewriters too, or ink wells and dry pens. But I thik this article was written in 2003.

One more and I'm going to bed: "Film will remain king for landscapes and anything that holds still and requires big prints. I even prefer its color rendition for Internet use. It's also the king for anything you intend to want to print years from now. In 5 years anything shot on today's digital cameras will look awful compared to what was shot on film today, by the standards of the future. Remember, digital already has replaced 35mm film, but the economies of the market and scale will not have it approach larger film format quality any decade soon, since the demand is not there to justify development at any price you'll want to afford."

Sure Ken, and a good old steel file cabinet will not be replaced by a 4GHrtz multi-Terabyte Hard Drive Computer for the same reason. I remember in 1988 we were using 10, 000 dollar 8 Mhz IMB PS2s at Shell Oil Company with 1 MB of RAM when no one ever dreamed of owning one for their living room. In less than 6 years I had an IBM clone running at 66Mhrtz with 64 MB of RAM that I paid about 1400.00 dollars for.

Remember also that software interpolation, along with hardware, is getting better in leaps and bounds too. So that 12MB RAW you just shot with your 5D may look even better in the future at 20 x 30 than it does now at 8 x 12. Remember that the RAW file is the raw bits, not static film, and can be manipulated now and in the future as technology to manipulate it develops.

Ken Rockwell does have some other interesting points too that you should read. One is that there is so much more information on a  4 x 5 slide (than any digital camera has, including the 30MP backs), that digital scanners are now getting so much more out of. So as long as the slides last, you can get huge information from them using 100, 000 dollar scanners, and even low end 1, 000 dollar scanners. But read that information yourself. It is compelling. Made me think I should go out and get a large format camera for landscapes. But then again, not.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 06:50:49 am by dwdallam »
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Anthony

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2006, 04:55:51 pm »

Quote
I have read that HP engineers have estimated that film has about the equivalent of 30 megapixels.
 

Judging by the high percentage of professional photographers now using 6-12 MP cameras as replacements to their 35 mm film equipment, the HP engineers obviously don't know what they're talking about. Photography is a highly competitive field. If film was better overall, that's what the majority would use.
Have the HP engineers been outside the lab and looked around in the real world for the past few years? Film? You're kidding me right?
This was a worthwhile argument 3 or 4 years ago but with all the advancements in digital technology from capture to print since then, there's simply nothing to argue about anymore.
The people now using film are the ones who wouldn't give up their slide rules when most everyone else was using pocket calculators.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 04:56:27 pm by Anthony »
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Bobtrips

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2006, 06:12:23 pm »

Quote
Quote
I have read that HP engineers have estimated that film has about the equivalent of 30 megapixels.

Judging by the high percentage of professional photographers now using 6-12 MP cameras as replacements to their 35 mm film equipment, the HP engineers obviously don't know what they're talking about. Photography is a highly competitive field. If film was better overall, that's what the majority would use.
Have the HP engineers been outside the lab and looked around in the real world for the past few years? Film? You're kidding me right?
This was a worthwhile argument 3 or 4 years ago but with all the advancements in digital technology from capture to print since then, there's simply nothing to argue about anymore.
The people now using film are the ones who wouldn't give up their slide rules when most everyone else was using pocket calculators.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


And if the HP engineers were correct don't you think that the film manufacturers would be using that fact for marketing their products rather than sitting back and watching a 80-90% reduction in sales?
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Paulo Bizarro

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2006, 02:37:25 am »

The people now using film are the ones who wouldn't give up their slide rules when most everyone else was using pocket calculators.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

Interesting comparison. I could argue that people who use slide rulers actually know what they are doing; whereas people using pocket calculators don't know the basic arithmetic operations. They just push the right buttons to get the result, without understanding the math behind it. If we now apply this to photography, or any other field, we start to understand why we get so many interesting posts.

I am still using slide film for several reasons; the first one is that I like the results from slide film better than digital. On top of that, I am not paying an arm and a leg for a full-frame DSLR that basically does what my 1V does. Simple business decision, taking into account the end product.

dwdallam

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2006, 05:03:00 am »

Quote from: pbizarro,Jul 31 2006, 06:37 AM
The people now using film are the ones who wouldn't give up their slide rules when most everyone else was using pocket calculators.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting comparison. I could argue that people who use slide rulers actually know what they are doing; whereas people using pocket calculators don't know the basic arithmetic operations. They just push the right buttons to get the result, without understanding the math behind it. If we now apply this to photography, or any other field, we start to understand why we get so many interesting posts.

I am still using slide film for several reasons; the first one is that I like the results from slide film better than digital. On top of that, I am not paying an arm and a leg for a full-frame DSLR that basically does what my 1V does. Simple business decision, taking into account the end product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72213\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

But then again, using your own logic against you, perhaps the reason you like the result of film better is that you do not understand digital enough to get the same or better results compared to film--not that film can give better results than digital?

Your analogy to the calculator is compelling, but I do not think it is a good analogy when compared to cameras, although I think it can be applied well to some photography instances. For instance, I am a firm believer that anyone who is trying to do photogrpahy on a professional, artistic level NEEDS to know the basics of photography, including using a light meter correctly for different effects. If not, then every photograph begins to have the same look. However, one does not need to know how to develop film or how filters affect light hitting the film to get the same result. They will need to know how to use a peice of software that changes the white blance, however (in the case of film color filters). But they do not need to know how the software works to change the white balance to get professionally white balanced effects--using software that they will never understand the math behind. In fact, understanding the math behind the software will probably do nothing for the result, and the time would be better spent understanding mood, texture, composition, and lighting.

I think the most comelling argument from an information perspective is actually Ken Rockwell's where he explains that flim slides have 100, 000 times more information on it than the most advanced digital image has, and all you need to do is have a scanner sophisticated enough to get the information off. As long as that criteria is met, and teh slide does not degrade, the scanned 4 x 5 slide will outperform digital in information available hands down.

Last, have youn added up how much developing and film cost you every year compared to investing in say a 5D for 2900US? Never having to pay for processing and film again would add quickly up, would it not? And if so, from a purely economic decision, that would be wise business. I think I calculated above that if you shoot 1000 image a month, you are paying around 300US a month for film and developing--more for slide film. At that rate, you would pay for a 5D in 10 months.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 05:07:37 am by dwdallam »
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Bobtrips

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2006, 08:19:32 pm »

Quote
I think the most comelling argument from an information perspective is actually Ken Rockwell's where he explains that flim slides have 100, 000 times more information on it than the most advanced digital image has, and all you need to do is have a scanner sophisticated enough to get the information off. As long as that criteria is met, and teh slide does not degrade, the scanned 4 x 5 slide will outperform digital in information available hands down.


After reading the P45 article on this site do you really think that a scanned 4x5 slide has "100, 000 times more information on it than the most advanced digital image has"?
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John Sheehy

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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2006, 08:35:15 am »

Quote
After reading the P45 article on this site do you really think that a scanned 4x5 slide has "100, 000 times more information on it than the most advanced digital image has"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think so.  I think 100,000 is a bit conservative.

Most of that information is about grain, though, not about the subject.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2006, 09:14:27 am »

Quote
I think so.  I think 100,000 is a bit conservative.

Most of that information is about grain, though, not about the subject.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In all my forty-plus years shooting film I never once worried about whether I was getting adequate detail in my grain.    

Eric
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-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)

Charles Michael Salazar

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2006, 12:15:27 pm »

I am recently retired and looking forward to finally have the time to devote to photography.  I have photographed for many years as a hobby, but am interested in trying to sell some of my work.  I shoot film, scan it on a Nikon 4000 scanner, work in photoshop, and output on an Epson 2200.  The results are impressive to me, finally, after many years of disappointment with C-prints, Cibachromes, and other processes prior to injet printing.

I have a couple of questions.  First, my scanned 35 mm film images will allow me to print up to 20x30 at 180 dpi, and I have considered upgrading to an Epson 7800 to allow me to print a wider variety of sizes up to 20x30.  I have many photo friends suggesting that I take the digital plunge, but my math indicates that a RAW file from a D200 will come out at approx. 126 dpi when sized to 20x30.   Will I notice a difference at that size comparing digital to scanned film,  considering that the digital file will need upsizing to reach 180 dpi before printing,  whereas the scanned image has sufficient file size already?    

I realize that the digital vs. film debate today largely suggests that digital is equal or superior to film, but I am wondering whether this refers to most common print sizes, up to, say, 12x18.  Where do we stand now when comparing quality at much larger sizes??

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Charlie
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Bobtrips

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2006, 03:38:02 pm »

Quote
I am recently retired and looking forward to finally have the time to devote to photography.  I have photographed for many years as a hobby, but am interested in trying to sell some of my work.  I shoot film, scan it on a Nikon 4000 scanner, work in photoshop, and output on an Epson 2200.  The results are impressive to me, finally, after many years of disappointment with C-prints, Cibachromes, and other processes prior to injet printing.

I have a couple of questions.  First, my scanned 35 mm film images will allow me to print up to 20x30 at 180 dpi, and I have considered upgrading to an Epson 7800 to allow me to print a wider variety of sizes up to 20x30.  I have many photo friends suggesting that I take the digital plunge, but my math indicates that a RAW file from a D200 will come out at approx. 126 dpi when sized to 20x30.   Will I notice a difference at that size comparing digital to scanned film,  considering that the digital file will need upsizing to reach 180 dpi before printing,  whereas the scanned image has sufficient file size already?     

I realize that the digital vs. film debate today largely suggests that digital is equal or superior to film, but I am wondering whether this refers to most common print sizes, up to, say, 12x18.  Where do we stand now when comparing quality at much larger sizes??

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Charlie
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You can answer that first question for yourself.  Go to www.dpreview.com - Cameras -> Nikon -> 200D and look at the review.  At the end of the review you will find sample shots.  Pick out one that is similar to what you shoot and print it out.  

(Obviously, no need to make a 20x30 print.  Just crop off a piece.)

I'm going to guess that the print will look pretty good at "normal 20x30 viewing distance" but won't be great upon close inspection.  (Don't forget that it's pretty easy to stitch multiple frames together in order to print much higher than 180ppi.)

The second question, "Where do we stand now", is pretty hard to answer unless one includes some sizes for film and sensor.  

Most folks feel that "full frame" 35mm digital has passed even the finest grained color 35mm film.  

And if you read the comparison of MF digital backs to 4x5 LF film you can get a good idea of where the 'digital top' is at the moment.

 [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml]http://luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml[/url]
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James DeMoss

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2006, 12:48:16 am »

Digital has allowed everyone that has had a commitment to photography to reduce the time from the time of the shot to the process and finally to print. This has been reduced to minutes in fact. I take about 5 times the images I used to and of course the rewards are that much greater as well. BUT I still keep my film cameras

-James
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dwdallam

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« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2006, 03:43:23 am »

Quote
After reading the P45 article on this site do you really think that a scanned 4x5 slide has "100, 000 times more information on it than the most advanced digital image has"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't remeber now. I was only passing information from Ken Rockwell's site. Ken Rockwell does state a specific number or rate how much more it has than digital does, and it is a lot more. I just don't remeber now what it was, but it was so much as to be just mind blowing.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 03:47:14 am by dwdallam »
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Craig Arnold

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Digital versus Film
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2006, 04:14:04 am »

Quote
As a total newbie to this site I hope this query will not offend anyone.   Many times I am asked by people who grew up with film if digital is really as good.   I think it is but is there a definitive answer to this question?   I have read that HP engineers have estimated that film has about the equivalent of 30 megapixels.   

 Hugh
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For the two best summaries I have seen look at:

[a href=\"http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html]http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html[/url]

And

http://normankoren.com

And a good quote from that page:

"I can make finer prints with the 8.3 megapixel EOS 20D (razor sharp at 13x19 inches) than I ever could with 35mm— and I was fanatic about lenses and darkroom work."


OTOH if you like film use film. It's no worse than it was, in fact it's actually a bit better.
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