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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918262 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2300 on: April 13, 2017, 08:21:16 am »

I didn't know that.   I assume Spicer didn't either.   But that doesn't change the fact that the press and other liberal anti Trump commentators were trying to make it seem like Spicer was some sort of Hitler lover.   It was still fake news used to discredited the administration.

Come on, Alan. You are a smart man, maybe smarter than the president.
But unfortunately, that can't be said about Spicer. That Hitler statement doesn't only show how clueless is he, but also he has a poor sense of judgment.
I wonder how long he will last as spokesman. If Trump won't fire him, then the constant stress working for him will kill him.

 

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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2301 on: April 13, 2017, 09:37:58 am »

I didn't know that.   I assume Spicer didn't either.   But that doesn't change the fact that the press and other liberal anti Trump commentators were trying to make it seem like Spicer was some sort of Hitler lover.   It was still fake news used to discredited the administration.
The only thing they showed in Europe was the direct footage of Spicer making these bonehead remarks. No liberal media were needed to discredit him, it was all self-inflicted by a lack of knowledge, judgement and understanding how the world works.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2302 on: April 13, 2017, 09:58:05 am »

Come on, Alan. You are a smart man, maybe smarter than the president.
But unfortunately, that can't be said about Spicer. That Hitler statement doesn't only show how clueless is he, but also he has a poor sense of judgment.
I wonder how long he will last as spokesman. If Trump won't fire him, then the constant stress working for him will kill him.

 


Trump should fire him for apologizing for something he didn't have to apologize for.  He should have fought back and called it all fake news, which it was.  In any case, people say things that can be interpreted different ways.  When every word you say is recorded, every malapropism, dangling modifier, etc can be used against you.  The press never gives the Trump administration the benefit of the doubt.  It was the same thing with the Sweden comment Trump made.  The anti-Trump press deliberately takes it out of context.  Wait, actually that one was true.  Or Obama's tapping Trump's phone.  Well, that turned out to be mainly true that his administration was surveilled. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2303 on: April 13, 2017, 10:04:01 am »

The only thing they showed in Europe was the direct footage of Spicer making these bonehead remarks. No liberal media were needed to discredit him, it was all self-inflicted by a lack of knowledge, judgement and understanding how the world works.
Who cares what Europe thinks?  As long they pay for NATO.

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2304 on: April 13, 2017, 10:11:08 am »

Who cares what Europe thinks?  As long they pay for NATO.
I know that's your pet-peeve because it doesn't mean better defense but more purchase orders for the Lockheed et. al. and that will make the USA "better". Thanks, but no thanks.
However with changing the subject you brushed over the point that Spicer wasn't discredited by liberal media, but only by his own words, he rightfully apologised and the only fake news was coming from his mouth. It's way too easy to blame others for this. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 10:25:45 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2305 on: April 13, 2017, 10:41:20 am »

Who cares what Europe thinks?  As long they pay for NATO.

I'm a Texan, a Son of the American Revolution, and have a degree in History (early American concentration). 

I care very deeply what Europe's leaders and citizens think about my country, and Pieter is 100% correct that reporting the goofy things that Spicer says, and the stupid, uninformed things Trump does, are not by any measure "fake news."   New you don't like?  Yep.  News that makes Trump look bad?  Yep.  But fake?  Not at all, and it's sad that Trumps supporters seem to believe that any criticism of him can be dismissed by screaming "FAKE NEWS!!!"   

As for paying for NATO, it was obsolete in January, so who cares.  But I guess it not obsolete any more, right?

Anyway, as others have said, you seem like an intelligent person, Alan, and it's impressive that you've remained mainly polite and willing to engage even though your points of view are under heavy attack here - thanks for that!  But honestly, Trump is scarily ignorant of the world at large, while having to deal with some very serious problems.  You get why people are freaked out, right?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2306 on: April 13, 2017, 11:22:53 am »

I hope the poll numbers give you comfort.

So the polls are fine as long as they agree with what you believe but the polls are faulty when they don't?

Hum...remind you of anybody?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2307 on: April 13, 2017, 11:27:45 am »

Gee, Jeff, on this forum, the above would be called...pixel-peeping and measurbating  ;)

Well when somebody spouts some numbers, I like to understand what they mean :-)

So an approval rating of 47% was tossed out as a "good thing" but upone closer inspection, not so much huh?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2308 on: April 13, 2017, 11:43:14 am »

I'm a Texan, a Son of the American Revolution, and have a degree in History (early American concentration). 

I care very deeply what Europe's leaders and citizens think about my country, and Pieter is 100% correct that reporting the goofy things that Spicer says, and the stupid, uninformed things Trump does, are not by any measure "fake news."   New you don't like?  Yep.  News that makes Trump look bad?  Yep.  But fake?  Not at all, and it's sad that Trumps supporters seem to believe that any criticism of him can be dismissed by screaming "FAKE NEWS!!!"   

As for paying for NATO, it was obsolete in January, so who cares.  But I guess it not obsolete any more, right?

Anyway, as others have said, you seem like an intelligent person, Alan, and it's impressive that you've remained mainly polite and willing to engage even though your points of view are under heavy attack here - thanks for that!  But honestly, Trump is scarily ignorant of the world at large, while having to deal with some very serious problems.  You get why people are freaked out, right?
Hi Jim,  Always liked Texans.  Real Americans.  I spent three times in San Antonio at Lackland AFB in the 1960's in the USAF.  That was the first time I was away from where I grew up in The Bronx (NYC).  I was a real greenhorn.  Anyway, a bunch of us once stayed in another airman's parent's home for the weekend where he came from right next to the base.  After a night of all of us drinking and getting sloshed, I remember getting woke up by their rooster crowing to the sunrise.  Oh, what a headache! 

First, thanks for the nice comments.  It is lonely on these threads.  I feel like Davie Crockett trying to save the Alamo by myself.  Slobodan helps out.  Yeah, Trump is a hard guy to get use too.  When he was running during the campaign, I had to shut the TV off his antics so got to me.  But he's calmed down.   The problem is he's not a politician, talks frankly, off the cuff, and let's the chips fall where they may.  That gets him into trouble.  But that's also admirable after all the BS you usually get from politicians who talk out of both sides of their mouth, want authority without responsibility  and blame others when things go south.  Trump says he was left a mess but will straighten it out.  All we got from Obama was 7 years of him blaming Bush.  Trump is a leader and willing to take risks to get things done.  Most politicians just talk a good game but do nothing really.  For all his smarts, Obama's lack of leadership and averseness to risk just weakened us in the world and made the whole world unsafe as bad actors filled the power vacuum.  Trump's action in Syria turned most of that all around in one fell swoop.  Hopefully, and I realize it's a long shot, China may actually help about N.Korea's nukes.  I can't imagine what Xi thought when Trump mentioned during their luncheon that he just sent missiles into Syria to destroy their airbase.  Xi must have gagged on his soup.  I imagine he was thinking of the "armada" stopping by his newly fortified islands and doing the same thing.  Xi must of thought, that boy, this guy's a loose cannon.  We better work with him.  You can be sure that when Trump visits China, he won't have to get of Air Force 1 from the baggage platform and be disgraced like Obama was.  With all his antics, the world has begin to respect the US again.  Including Europe.   That's worth a lot. 

It's not about being smart about the world.  It's about being smart how the world works. Having spent his whole life being beat up and beating up others, facing existential crises in business many times, he brings that CEO experience of life to the presidency which is also about leadership.  Yes, he should clean up his act and is.  He is also a quick learner and has good people like Mattis and others to advise him.  It might be helpful if the press stopped the game of looking at every one of his tics and started to treat him as President. There is a constant barrage from most of the press who don't like him.  If he was Obama, they would let most of it slide.

Regarding NATO, he may have reassessed his honest original feeling that it's no longer necessary because the Soviet Union is gone but now realizes Russia is a problem.  Or he may have always felt that way and originally said that NATO wasn't necessary as a way of pressuring Europe to pay their fair share instead of taking advantage of America's largesse.  Europe's done that for years taking advantage of our good nature and spending defense money on their social projects and letting us make up the difference.  Trump hates to get ripped off.  That's his real estate experience with contractors.  (I use to be one myself and used to get ripped off my general contractors all the time.  You always had to watch yourself).  It's good to have a politician who's concerned with what things cost.  Most government officials don't care a hoot. 

Anyway, it's nice to hear from someone else.  Thanks for posting. 



 

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2309 on: April 13, 2017, 12:44:52 pm »

"Trump is a leader and willing to take risks to get things done. "

The difference is that before, Trump was taking risks in a business.  He could always, and did, simply "take a Mulligan" by declaring bankruptcy and try again.  It did not matter how many of his business enterprises failed, as long as more of them succeeded. 

But there is only one United States. 

He does not have the luxury of doing that as president.  He can't declare bankruptcy and try again.  His decisions affect international relations and he can't just tweet that "I was just joking".

Being PotUS is serious.  Much more serious then running a family business, no matter how large. Much harsher consequences and no "Mulligans".  He appears to be a tactical thinker, in a position where strategic thought is necessary.

It is a good fantasy to have a President from the outside, but the reality is that PotUS is not an entry level job.  We should have learned that from Bush Jr and Obama.

Personally, I don't want an outsider as President.  I want someone with the education and experience in running a government and working with congress.  I don't think that Trump has much experience working with people.  I think all his experiences are with people working for him.  I think Trump is learning how un-fun being president really is.

Unfortunately, with this election, there was not exactly an acceptable alternative but that's another gripe.  :D  Either choice would have been bad. We can thank the major political parties for that gift.

With his switching back and forth concerning past and present comments, I feel that he is eroding trust in our allies.  What he says this month may not be what he says next month.  That unpredictability is not a good way to foster a relationship of trust. 

In the long term, I do not have confidence that Trump will be good for our nation.  He and his family will make a lot of money.  The MIC will make a lot of money.  But the collateral costs may be unacceptable.

George W. Bush once said, infamously, that in the context of foreign police that he does not "do nuance".  As soon as I heard that, I knew we were in trouble.  Professionally, I work foreign policy and it is nothing but nuance.  I fear the Trump is another person that does not "do nuance", in an environment where everything is nuance.

In his family business and TV show, Trump could expect everyone else to change to his way of thinking.  But in domestic and foreign policy, he does not have that luxury.

I honestly don't think he is well prepared for this job.  We, in this country seem to be working on a pattern.  Bush jr, Obama, Trump -- entry level employees in an executive position.

The US is strong.  I feel it is stronger then any one individual.  I have hope that we will survive Trump.  After all, what else do I have to hope for.  But while we can survive one intern, can we survive three consecutive interns?  Or a fourth if we continue to elect entry level people into the office of president?  I hope so.  Unfortunately, all I have is hope.

But who knows?  Perhaps Trump will grow into the position.  We have had inexperienced people as president all throughout our history.  We can only hope that while Trump is engaged in OJT, that he does not do something irreversible.

He can't take a Mulligan
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2310 on: April 13, 2017, 03:37:30 pm »

I disagree Trump is an entry level employee in an executive position.  While no one has been President before he becomes president, Trump does have a lifetime of executive experience.  Not taking risk is risky as well.  Obama proved that.  He worried too much what Iran, China, Russia and others would say.  I think he cared more what they would say about him personally.  So he didn't act.  He talked a good game but adversaries saw through the façade and took advantage of his weakness.  Friends took advantage too. 

Of course, Trump could make mistakes, serious ones.  Look what happened to Johnson with Vietnam and Bush2 with Iraq.  Both had experience in government.  Johnson was leader of the Senate and VP before he became President.  Bush was a fighter pilot and governor of Texas.  So experience in government and the military doesn't assure us of much.  Kennedy a WWII torpedo boat hero nearly got us into WWIII with the Soviets over the Cuban missile crisis due to his stupid move in the Bay of Pigs Cuba adventure against the Castro brothers that failed. 

But any president can't freeze and be so afraid to act that he does nothing or little.  Leading from behind, Obama's doctrine, is no doctrine at all.

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2311 on: April 13, 2017, 05:23:05 pm »

I didn't know that.   I assume Spicer didn't either.   But that doesn't change the fact that the press and other liberal anti Trump commentators were trying to make it seem like Spicer was some sort of Hitler lover.   It was still fake news used to discredited the administration.

It wasn't fake news.  It was 100% accurate.  As the WH PS, before he spoke about something, he should have known about it.  That's his job.  The press gave him an opportunity to correct his mistake, and he failed to do so, again displaying ignorance.  He's not accused of being a Hitler lover, he's accused of being a moron.  He's pretty much delivered a slam-dunk case for the prosecution on that accusation, too.
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Phil Brown

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2312 on: April 13, 2017, 05:23:54 pm »

Our Constitution is none of your business.  You should be asking why your Dutch leader in the Netherlands is not allowing Dutch citizens to listen to foreign visitors they wish to hear.

Rubbish.  If you interact with the rest of the world, then your Constitution is our business.  So stop deflecting and answer the question.
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Phil Brown

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2313 on: April 13, 2017, 05:29:19 pm »

It wasn't fake news.  It was 100% accurate.  As the WH PS, before he spoke about something, he should have known about it.  That's his job.  The press gave him an opportunity to correct his mistake, and he failed to do so, again displaying ignorance.  He's not accused of being a Hitler lover, he's accused of being a moron.  He's pretty much delivered a slam-dunk case for the prosecution on that accusation, too.

Well said. To ensure it doesn’t happen again, the Anti-Defamation League is now offering Spicer and his colleagues a training on Holocaust awareness.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:30:16 pm by LesPalenik »
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2314 on: April 14, 2017, 02:23:01 am »

Our Constitution is none of your business.
  Bullshit! Farmer is right, deal with it.

You should be asking why your Dutch leader in the Netherlands is not allowing Dutch citizens to listen to foreign visitors they wish to hear.
That's the topic of this thread You didn't gain any traction or bring any logical arguments there, so don't try to switch the subject here. It won't help. This thread is about Trump and the Trump administration.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2315 on: April 14, 2017, 02:27:52 am »

From the LA Op/Ed series...

Part IV Trump’s War on Journalism

Quote
In Donald Trump’s America, the mere act of reporting news unflattering to the president is held up as evidence of bias. Journalists are slandered as “enemies of the people.”

Facts that contradict Trump’s version of reality are dismissed as “fake news.” Reporters and their news organizations are “pathetic,” “very dishonest,” “failing,” and even, in one memorable turn of phrase, "a pile of garbage.”

Trump is, of course, not the first American president to whine about the news media or try to influence coverage. President George W. Bush saw the press as elitist and “slick.” President Obama’s press operation tried to exclude Fox News reporters from interviews, blocked many officials from talking to journalists and, most troubling, prosecuted more national security whistle-blowers and leakers than all previous presidents combined.

But Trump being Trump, he has escalated the traditionally adversarial relationship in demagogic and potentially dangerous ways.

Most presidents, irritated as they may have been, have continued to acknowledge — at least publicly — that an independent press plays an essential role in American democracy. They’ve recognized that while no news organization is perfect, honest reporting holds leaders and institutions accountable; that’s why a free press was singled out for protection in the 1st Amendment and why outspoken, unfettered journalism is considered a hallmark of a free country.

Trump doesn’t seem to buy it. On his very first day in office, he called journalists “among the most dishonest human beings on earth.”
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 02:48:51 am by Schewe »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2316 on: April 14, 2017, 02:32:08 am »

Part V Conspiracy Theorist in Chief

Quote
It was bad enough back in 2011 when Donald Trump began peddling the crackpot conspiracy theory that President Barack Obama was not a native-born American. But at least Trump was just a private citizen then.

By the time he tweeted last month that Obama had sunk so low as to “tapp [sic] my phones during the very sacred election process,” Trump was a sitting president accusing a predecessor of what would have been an impeachable offense.

Trump went public with this absurd accusation without consulting the law enforcement and intelligence officials who would have disabused him of a conspiracy theory he apparently imbibed from right-wing media. After the FBI director debunked it, Trump held fast, claiming he hadn’t meant that he had been literally wiretapped.

Most people know by now that the new president of the United States trafficks in untruths and half-truths, and that his word cannot be taken at face value.

Even more troubling, though, is that much of his misinformation is of the creepiest kind. Implausible conspiracy theories from fly-by-night websites; unsubstantiated speculations from supermarket tabloids. Bigoted stories he may have simply made up; stuff he heard on TV talk shows.

The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 6, 2012

In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 27, 2016

This is pathetic, but it’s also alarming. If Trump feels free to take to Twitter to make wild, paranoid, unsubstantiated accusations against his predecessor, why should the nation believe what he says about a North Korean missile test, Russian troop movements in Europe or a natural disaster in the United States?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2317 on: April 14, 2017, 02:34:38 am »

Part VI California Fights Back

Quote
When Donald Trump threatened on the campaign trail to deport every single immigrant living in the country illegally, bring back offshore drilling and reverse the anti-pollution policies that help clear smoggy skies, Californians immediately understood that our state would be disproportionately affected — and disproportionately harmed — by the reckless policies he was hoping to enact.

After he was sworn in, he went further, singling out the state for attack. “California,” Trump declared in February, “in many ways is out of control.” In one overwrought tweet, he suggested that the federal government should cut all funding for UC Berkeley because a protest against a conservative guest speaker had turned violent. A few days later, he declared — even more irresponsibly — that he would “defund” the entire state if he felt it wasn’t cooperating sufficiently in his efforts to root out undocumented immigrants.

Trump had already alienated many state voters with his plans to build a costly and unnecessary border wall, revoke the health insurance of millions of low-income people and gut climate-change policies. Now, he was taking on California itself, a state in which more than one out of 10 Americans live, and which sends more than $350 billion to Washington each year in federal taxes (and gets substantially less than that back). A state with strong progressive values that it will not happily see undermined.

To express their dissatisfaction, hundreds of thousands of people gathered at rallies in the state’s major cities. One man’s quixotic California secession campaign became a cause célèbre. And California’s political leaders vowed to fight back.

Gov. Jerry Brown grumbled that if Trump cut climate data-gathering efforts, California would launch its “own damn satellite.” Legislators put former U.S. Atty. Gen Eric Holder on a hefty retainer to help challenge Trump’s initiatives in court even before he’d announced any. They filed a mountain of bills reacting to an array of reprehensible policies that the new president was thought to be considering. “We’re going to do what we need to do to protect the people of California,” said state Atty. Gen. Xavier Becerra.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 02:48:33 am by Schewe »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2318 on: April 14, 2017, 07:57:00 am »

Defund the commies and "sanctuary" cities.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #2319 on: April 14, 2017, 11:35:26 am »

117 pages are enough,  it's been fun.  Bye.
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