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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 1390942 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1800 on: March 26, 2017, 09:43:34 pm »

Can we have a few examples?

Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. - common thread: imposing one single idea of what's right (a.k.a. political correctness) onto everyone by force.

Recently: preventing Trump rally in Chicago, beating Trump supporters when leaving rallies in other cities. Beating Trump supporters during inauguration, setting cars on fire, destroying property. Organized and paid by Soros and MoveOn.org

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1801 on: March 26, 2017, 10:17:08 pm »

You have evidence of illegal acts being sponsored by those entities and have forwarded it to the appropriate authorities so they can initiate prosecutions, right?

Oh, wait, you don't actually have any evidence?  I see.
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Phil Brown

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1802 on: March 26, 2017, 10:54:10 pm »

Estimates of the number of deaths ordered or caused by Stalin range from 3 million to 60 million.
If we add the other mentioned left dictators, the number would exceed 100 millions.
 
In western Europe, in not so distant history, there was a West German far-left revolutionary group supported by the east-German Stasi, called Red Army Faction (originally Baader Mainhof Bande).
Also the Italian Red Brigades, the French Action Directe (AD), and the Belgian Communist Combatant Cells.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 11:33:36 pm by LesPalenik »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1803 on: March 26, 2017, 11:28:06 pm »

If we add the other mentioned left dictators, the number would exceed 100 millions.

A convincing argument.  Lenin, Stalin et al were off my radar as leftists, but of course you're right.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1804 on: March 26, 2017, 11:41:48 pm »

You have evidence of illegal acts being sponsored by those entities and have forwarded it to the appropriate authorities so they can initiate prosecutions, right?

Oh, wait, you don't actually have any evidence?  I see.

Who do you think printed all those t-shirts, placards, signs, organized calls to protests through social media, provided busses, etc.?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/18/politics/project-veritas-action-robert-creamer-donald-trump-rallies/

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Washington (CNN)A Democratic operative whose organization was helping Hillary Clinton's campaign announced Tuesday that he would be "stepping back" from the campaign after an edited video suggested that he and other staffers hired people to attend Donald Trump's campaign rallies and incite violence...

... Creamer told CNN that the national field director of Americans United for Change, Scott Foval, who was also recorded in the video, made false comments that are wrong about inciting violence at the rallies. Foval has since been fired from Americans United for Change, which had a contracting relationship with Democracy Partners.

"I mean, honestly, it's not hard to get some of these a------- to pop off," Foval purportedly says at one point in the video. "It's a matter of showing up, to want to get into their rally, in a Planned Parenthood T-shirt. Or 'Trump is a Nazi,' you know. You can message to draw them out, and draw them out to punch you."
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 11:47:39 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1805 on: March 27, 2017, 01:17:32 am »

Surprise, surprise! The only organized, mass violence comes from the left. Historically, as well as today.

Hum...I guess you didn't spend too much time studying history huh? The Boston Tea Party by the Sons of Liberty was an act of terrorism/revolution which precipitated the American Revolution. Which ironically gave birth to American Liberalism and the United States Constitution. In the context of the times, the Constitution was a revolutionary and liberal document. As such George Washington, a general of the American Revolution was considered a leftist liberal. Thomas Jefferson was perhaps America's greatest intellectual liberal and subscribed to the political ideals expounded by John Locke, Francis Bacon, and Isaac Newton, whom he considered the three greatest men that ever lived.

So, who you calling a LEFTIST?

It's ironic that the original Jefferson political party was called the Democratic-Republican Party or Jeffersonian Republicans. This is not to be confused with the resulting Democratic or Republican parties of today...Andrew Jackson took the then Democratic party towards the view that the central government was the enemy of individual liberty-like the GOP does now. Ironically, it was Lincoln that brought the Republicans (GOP) into power. The further irony was that back then, it was the Democrats that were conservative and the Republicans that were liberal-particularly when Theodore Roosevelt was in power in the 1907–1912 period. Now it's the Democrats that are liberal and the Republican that are conservative.

Personally, I'm fine with being given a "liberal" today...Modern liberalism in the United States.

John F. Kennedy defined a liberal as follows:

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"...someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people—their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties—someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal', then I'm proud to say I'm a 'Liberal'."

Yeah, I'm really ok with that description...I'm down with being a liberal.

But I rather strongly disagree with Conservatism in the United States particularly after the crap the GOP proposed with American Health Care Act of massive tax breaks for the wealthy and yanking support for Medicaid...it came off as mean spirited and typically Republican. Read the wikipedia article and see if it describes today's GOP:

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American Conservatism is a broad system of political beliefs in the United States that is characterized by respect for American traditions, support for Judeo-Christian values, economic liberalism, anti-communism, advocacy of American exceptionalism, and a defense of Western culture from threats posed by "creeping socialism", moral relativism, multiculturalism, and liberal internationalism.

Wow..."defense of Western culture from threats posed by "creeping socialism", moral relativism, multiculturalism, and liberal internationalism"

I had to look up "creeping socialism"...it seems that Dwight Eisenhower used the phrase which was first in F.A. Hayek's book The Road to Serfdom. It seems Ike was afraid of communism–which conservatives like to lump with socialists because they don't understand the differences. Then of course, there's Democratic socialism like Bernie Sanders and that, of course, makes conservative's heads explode...

Yeah, I have a real problem with the conservative wing of the GOP–particularly that forcing support for Judeo-Christian values, the bullshit about American exceptionalism and defense of Western culture.

Really? We're "special"? Why?

This whole Left–right politics is what is destroying America. You want to make America Great Again? Quit polarizing and demand the political parties work across the isle. After 7 years, the GOP couldn't pass their AHCA bill, why? aside from the fact it sucked, the GOP couldn't even address the radical splits in their own party. It never occurred to the GOP to even talk to the Democrats...


Oh, and I'll let you in on a little secret, that whole Judeo-Christian values stuff? Yeah, no so much for me...I'm a secular humanist

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Secular humanism embraces human reason, ethics, social justice, and philosophical naturalism while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition as the bases of morality and decision making.

Secular humanism posits that human beings are capable of being ethical and moral without religion or a god. It does not, however, assume that humans are either inherently evil or innately good, nor does it present humans as being superior to nature. Rather, the humanist life stance emphasizes the unique responsibility facing humanity and the ethical consequences of human decisions. Fundamental to the concept of secular humanism is the strongly held viewpoint that ideology—be it religious or political—must be thoroughly examined by each individual and not simply accepted or rejected on faith.

Along with this, an essential part of secular humanism is a continually adapting search for truth, primarily through science and philosophy. Many Humanists derive their moral codes from a philosophy of utilitarianism, ethical naturalism, or evolutionary ethics, and some, such as Sam Harris, advocate a science of morality.

I always find it the utter height of hubris and hypocrisy that the far right GOP who claim to be defenders of Christian values exhibit none of those values when trying to develop policy and govern. I think the Pope got it right when he suggested that it's better to be an atheist than a bad Christian

I would rather be left than right...ya know?

Power to the people!
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1806 on: March 27, 2017, 01:26:49 am »

Who do you think printed all those t-shirts, placards, signs, organized calls to protests through social media, provided busses, etc.?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/18/politics/project-veritas-action-robert-creamer-donald-trump-rallies/

Well, of course anything released by Project Veritas Action is always truthful and accurate, oh wait, it's that the same group lead by James O'Keefe that doctors videos? See: The Lies Of James O'Keefe.

I guess you didn't read or believe the part down lower in the CNN article where the DNC responded:
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"While Project Veritas has been known to offer misleading video out of context, some of the language and tactics referenced in the video are troubling even as a theory or proposal never executed," Zac Petkanas, a spokesman for Clinton's campaign, said in a statement. "We support the Democratic National Committee's appropriate action addressing this matter and look forward to continue waging a campaign of ideas worthy of our democratic process."
In 2010, O'Keefe plead guilty to a misdemeanor for breaking into former Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu's office to tamper with her phone.

In 2013, O'Keefe had to pay $100,000 to settle a lawsuit filed by a former employee of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, better known as ACORN, after O'Keefe and fellow activist Hannah Giles allegedly solicited advice from ACORN workers on setting up a brothel and evading taxes.

The videos led to some employees being fired and contributed to the disbanding of ACORN, which advocated for low- and middle-income families and worked to register voters.

But prosecutors in New York and California found no evidence of wrongdoing by the group, and the California probe found the videos had been heavily edited.

So, this proves what exactly?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1807 on: March 27, 2017, 02:15:34 am »

One more post highlighting a show CBS Sunday Morning that I think is a useful look at The great divide: Politics in the Age of Trump.

Interesting back and forth between Hannity and Ted Koppel...

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However, Sean Hannity said, “We have to give some credit to the American people that they are somewhat intelligent and that they know the difference between an opinion show and a news show. You’re cynical.”

“I am cynical,” said Koppel.

“Do you think we’re bad for America? You think I’m bad for America?”

“Yeah.”

“You do?”

“In the long haul I think you and all these opinion shows --”

“Really? That’s sad, Ted. That’s sad.”

“No, you know why? Because you’re very good at what you do, and because you have attracted a significantly more influential --”

“You are selling the American people short.”

“No, let me finish the sentence before you do that.”

“I’m listening. With all due respect. Take the floor.”

“You have attracted people who are determined that ideology is more important than facts.”

The bolding was mine...and that pretty much spells out a lot of the problem with all media of any stripe that doesn't have a respect for facts...if we can't agree on basic facts how can we communicate anything?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1808 on: March 27, 2017, 05:12:51 am »

I thought that, adding to the insults directed at Angela Merkel during the election campaign, this was an awkward moment, and a bit disrespectful towards Angela Merkel, but that that would be the end of it.

Donald Trump refuses to shake Angela Merkel's hand:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-angela-merkel-shake-hand-refuse-a7635911.html

Nice summary: John Oliver: 'Donald Trump treated Angela Merkel like a drunk masturbating in a subway car'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pf2tgQKsZU

But apparently, things were even worse behind the scenes.

Donald Trump printed out made-up £300bn Nato invoice and handed it to Angela Merkel:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-angela-merkel-nato-bill-defence-ignore-usa-germany-spending-a7650636.html

Trump’s awkward meeting with Angela Merkel just got more cringeworthy:
https://thinkprogress.org/trumps-awkward-meeting-with-angela-merkel-just-got-more-cringeworthy-853ca0b84ca4#.wqodxn92y

Luckily Angela Merkel doesn't get intimidated by such provocations, which apparently was the idea behind the idiotic plan.

And according to this source (note the creative 'shoots down' wording), the White House denies everything:
White House shoots down German officials' claim that Trump gave Merkel a $374 billion bill to pay for NATO:
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/03/26/white-house-shoots-down-german-officials-claim-that-trump-gave/22012666/

Cheers,
Bart
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1809 on: March 27, 2017, 06:57:17 am »

So evidently Trump never said that he would immediately overturn and replace the ACA.... despite the numerous times he said exactly that during the campaign.

So he was for immediately repealing it, until it was not immediately repealed, so now he was never for immediately repealing it.

In Trump's mind, Trump is never wrong.  A concerning characteristic for a person who is in charge of a large military.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1810 on: March 27, 2017, 07:32:10 am »

So evidently Trump never said that he would immediately overturn and replace the ACA.... despite the numerous times he said exactly that during the campaign.

So he was for immediately repealing it, until it was not immediately repealed, so now he was never for immediately repealing it.

Ah well, he can hardly be blamed for a Republican health plan alternative that they have been working on for 7 (?) years. What's hard to understand for me, is why it has to be totally replaced and it seemingly is impossible to improve a plan that is not perfect. Such a drastic change will cause more issues than it solves, while a more gradual improvement might lead to something tangible. And there are structural changes needed to bring total cost down first.

Anyhow, that something has to change, so much is clear (see attached).

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. the attached graph is from the following article, but it may not load depending on browser settings, I therefore attached it to make sure it's visible.

Trump tastes failure as U.S. House healthcare bill collapses:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obamacare-idUSKBN16V149
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 08:13:10 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1811 on: March 27, 2017, 07:44:59 am »

Donald Trump's team 'wiping their electronic devices' in anticipation of giving evidence:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-staff-wiping-electronic-devices-subpoena-fbi-investigation-russia-a7651276.html

Too late, and it only incriminates more.

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1812 on: March 27, 2017, 07:51:52 am »

...Power to the people!

How fitting to end your post with a communist slogan.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1813 on: March 27, 2017, 09:00:07 am »


John F. Kennedy defined a liberal as follows: "...someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, ..."

Yeah, I'm really ok with that description...I'm down with being a liberal.



How do you reconcile the fact that so many liberals try and keep developing technologies at bay just so people don't loose their jobs?  The fact that this is commonplace with liberal big government flies in the face of your definition. 

Look at the USPS; it's going bankrupt.  We could easily fix it by automating the system more and making it more efficient, which of course would mean laying people off.  However, so many liberals are against this because of the loss of jobs. 

Look at the fast food industry and how they want to automate.  So many liberals are trying to keep that from happening, or at the very least creating a smear campaign.  Not very future looking. 

My brother is very liberal, and he recently complained about how Philly's train system started checking tickets on the platform, instead of on the train, because it would cost conductors' jobs.  If it was up to him, we would still be using brakeman and cabooses to stop trains, instead of modern brakes, just to keep jobs. 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 10:20:19 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1814 on: March 27, 2017, 09:21:27 am »

So evidently Trump never said that he would immediately overturn and replace the ACA.... despite the numerous times he said exactly that during the campaign.

So he was for immediately repealing it, until it was not immediately repealed, so now he was never for immediately repealing it.

In Trump's mind, Trump is never wrong.  A concerning characteristic for a person who is in charge of a large military.
The failure to approve the bill does make the Republicans look bad.  But it shows that our democracy and constitution is strong.  We are not a dictatorship where the President is a king and makes rules unilaterally.  Even with a Republican Congress, you can't get a bill passed that won't satisfy at least half the lawmakers who the people voted for.  It was a bad bill, and Congress spoke. 

Obama won because it seems like they can't reverse some form of health care.  Since Trump also says the pre-existing mandate has to stay, there's no way to pay for it unless the government is all in.  If they try to make people pay for it who don't want it, they're going to have to raise the "tax" and make it stiffer.  Roberts of the Supreme Court approved the ACA because he felt the charge was a tax because there wasn't enough cost to make people buy the insurance.  If a new law raises it to be a penalty, he would consider it unconstitutional because it would force Americans to illegally buy a product they don't want to buy.  So only the government can pay for the shortfall.

This is becoming a major millstone around our necks, something we can't afford.  People will be screaming to cut other expenses like for NATO.  This will force Germany and others to shift the money they use for their own health care to their own military for defense.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1815 on: March 27, 2017, 10:30:18 am »

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-on-trump-the-destroyer-w473144

Matt Taibbi's superbly written review of TrumpWorld to date.

Long.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1816 on: March 27, 2017, 10:43:10 am »


Look at the USPS; it's going bankrupt.  We could easily fix it by automating the system more and making it more efficient, which of course would mean laying people off.  However, so many liberals are against this because of the loss of jobs. 
Sorry Joe you picked a bad example here.  The leadership of the USPS has advocated a number of changes that would make it more fiscally responsible.  Congress keeps vetoing the suggestions.  They are not permitted to account for pension obligations in the same manner that US businesses do and this ends up showing as a big deficit on the ledger when it really is not.  They have to pre-fund the pension system way in excess of what is actuarially needed.  They have advocated cutting back delivery from the current six days a week and that's a no go as well.  Congress privatized the postal service years ago but won't let it operate like a private company.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1817 on: March 27, 2017, 10:48:18 am »

Hum...I guess you didn't spend too much time studying history huh?...

While some people have to read about recent history on Wikipedia (of all "reliable" sources), I've been living it. I left a crippling socialism only to end up in a creeping one here.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1818 on: March 27, 2017, 10:53:27 am »

Sorry Joe you picked a bad example here.  The leadership of the USPS has advocated a number of changes that would make it more fiscally responsible.  Congress keeps vetoing the suggestions.  They are not permitted to account for pension obligations in the same manner that US businesses do and this ends up showing as a big deficit on the ledger when it really is not.  They have to pre-fund the pension system way in excess of what is actuarially needed.  They have advocated cutting back delivery from the current six days a week and that's a no go as well.  Congress privatized the postal service years ago but won't let it operate like a private company.
  But BIG government is a liberal concept.  The mess that USPS is in is exactly due to the way government works, or doesn't work.  The VA is other example as will be national health care.  But liberals continue to believe that big government is the answer to all our problems.  Even state government is incompetent.  In NY State, Off Track Betting (OTB) handling racing bets went bankrupt.  It became a place where politicians gave jobs to their supporters and where no one really cared about making a profit.  How anyone could lose money in gambling where there's no risk boggles the mind.  But we did it in NY.  We should have left it with the Mafia and just taken a percent off the top. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1819 on: March 27, 2017, 11:01:55 am »

While some people have to read about recent history on Wikipedia (of all "reliable" sources), I've been living it. I left a crippling socialism only to end up in a creeping one here.
Unfortunately, we in America have been blessed with not having to live what you did.  So today, here in America,  ignorant people buy into the feel good concept.  But you think they'd just look around and see what happened to the Soviet Union.  What is happening to Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela, a country so rich in oil.  80% of their people aren't getting enough to eat.  Their economy is in a shambles because of Socialism.  They've lost most of their political and economic and personal freedoms in a few short years,  Our media and education system have failed us.  We all should be getting a re-education about these countries.  But no one's doing it.  You have guys like Sanders, who spent his honeymoon in the Soviet Union, getting close to being President.  And people buying into his Marxist ideas. 
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