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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 895459 times)

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1200 on: March 11, 2017, 05:52:23 pm »

But there is no evidence currently that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians to swing the election.

And then there is this...

Longtime Trump ally Roger Stone admits he held private conversations with Russia-affiliated hackers

And Flynn's reputation has taken another hit...

Michael Flynn Was Paid to Represent Turkey’s Interests During Trump Campaign

He even attended top secret briefings while acting as an agent of a foreign country. Wow...I'm sure glad that US intelligence caught him talking to the Russian ambassador about sanctions otherwise he might still be the National Security Advisor...

Sure am looking forward to March 20th...House Intel schedules first Russia hearing for March 20. Wow, Sally Yates will be testifying (the acting AG that Trump fired) as well as:

FBI Director James Comey
NSA Director Mike Rogers
Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper,
Former CIA Director John Brennan
Two executives from CrowdStrike, the cybersecurity company originally investigating the DNC hacks and which first "found" Russian involvement.

I wonder if we'll finally have evidence of Obama wiretapping Trump's phones?

Yeah, probably not :~)

Trump is gonna Make America Great Again (hopefully before he gets impeached)
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32BT

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1201 on: March 11, 2017, 05:58:58 pm »

Indeed, why would anyone be against that peace-loving, tolerant religion?

This is separate issue. Erdogan is a problem because of despotism, not because of his religious inclination.


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32BT

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1202 on: March 11, 2017, 06:01:15 pm »

Indeed, why would anyone be against that peace-loving, tolerant religion?

What are you trying to say? That ALL muslims think this way? Or that ALL tolerant people also tolerate extremism?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1203 on: March 11, 2017, 06:03:15 pm »

They apparently called for a rally and (pro erdogan) demonstration to be held in the Netherlands after the talk by their minister, something that would be forbidden by international law. Even so, we were negotiating the terms and possibilities of the minister's visit, under safer circumstances, but they decided to unilaterally drop the bomb anyway.

Yes, as the negotiations (for a more limited gathering on the consulate grounds) were being conducted, the Turkish foreign affairs minister suddenly started to threaten our government with sanctions and what have you. That effectively terminated the discussion/negotiations, and the landing rights were pulled.

For the folks in other countries who do not seem to understand, this is all played by the book (the populist dictator's manual). Because Erdogan might lose the referendum to expand his power even further, he needed an outside enemy so that his people would unite behind their powerful leader. Therefore he created a direct confrontation in European countries where election tensions are rising (in 4 days time, next Wednesday, in the Netherlands), aimed at being denied to promote his own dictatorship in foreign democratic countries.

Quote
It is not about muslims, we just don't respond well to despotism.

That's right, and the threats with sanctions while negotiations were being conducted how we could let him speak to a smaller group on the consulate's grounds, while making sure that public order and safety in the surrounding areas could be maintained, effectively slammed the door shut.

Nothing to do with Muslims, everything to do with populist dictators trying to disrupt elections in other countries. Just like in the USA.

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1204 on: March 11, 2017, 06:05:00 pm »

What are you trying to say? That ALL muslims think this way?...

No, just enough of them.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1205 on: March 11, 2017, 06:14:54 pm »

I do not get it.

Are you suggesting that Erdogan election rallies in Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe would pose a threat to "the public order and safety"? How can a dozen protesters do so? Surely there are not more than a dozen mentally-unstable people who would support Erdogan? Millions of Muslim immigrants there are by now all democratically oriented, law-abiding, well integrated, and surely would not support a dictator?

32BT

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1206 on: March 11, 2017, 06:15:31 pm »

No, just enough of them.

How did they become "them"?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1207 on: March 11, 2017, 06:18:25 pm »

How did they become "them"?

By the virtue of grammar rules?

32BT

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1208 on: March 11, 2017, 06:24:47 pm »

I do not get it.

Are you suggesting that Erdogan election rallies in Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe would pose a threat to "the public order and safety"? How can a dozen protesters do so? Surely there are not more than a dozen mentally-unstable people who would support Erdogan? Millions of Muslim immigrants there are by now all democratically oriented, law-abiding, well integrated, and surely would not support a dictator?

A Few Good Men. I saw the movie. But how are Erdogan supporters and millions of Muslims related? Or Erdogan supporters and extremists for that matter?
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32BT

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1209 on: March 11, 2017, 06:26:39 pm »

By the virtue of grammar rules?

Or because of upbringing and education perhaps? Do you believe that demonising millions of muslims with your pictures of a dozen unstable extremists is going to help sway younger people in general to a more tolerant thinking?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1210 on: March 11, 2017, 06:38:01 pm »

I do not get it.

Are you suggesting that Erdogan election rallies in Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe would pose a threat to "the public order and safety"? How can a dozen protesters do so? Surely there are not more than a dozen mentally-unstable people who would support Erdogan?

Indeed, you do not get it (on purpose).

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1211 on: March 11, 2017, 06:42:13 pm »

Or because of upbringing and education perhaps? Do you believe that demonising millions of muslims with your pictures of a dozen unstable extremists is going to help sway younger people in general to a more tolerant thinking?

I think that denying the reality and portraying it as "a dozen unstable" would't help younger people think for themselves, rather than being "swayed."

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1212 on: March 11, 2017, 10:06:31 pm »

It's not about Muslims. It's about immigration in general, and the multi-cultural pluralism, even within EU borders. (Same -sentiment- as in US: jobs lost to cheap-labor influx from eastern-european countries for example) There is a sense of lost identity due to an increasingly more influential EU dominance.

So it are in essence the anti-establishment parties that are gaining votes, they just happen to also be anti-immigration, and some of them particularly anti-muslim. But it would be several bridges too far to say all dutch are anti-muslim because they only have limited choice in voting anti-establishment.

Personally I believe the problem in both the US and EU is this: lack of vision.
The choice is either one of 20+ technocratic beancounters that have solid bookkeeping but no vision, or a populist with a vision of a society from a bygone era. The same thing happened in the US. Hillary had her bookkeeping and statistics solidly build in stone, but people are not statistics and they don't like beancounters. So, guess who wins the elections...

My point wasn't about Erdogan.  He's just another autocrat jockeying to be President for life.   My original post was to highlight the holier-than-thou comments by Europeans aimed at America and Trump.  It's Europe that have the dedicated anti-Muslim, anti-immigration parties.  Geert Wilders in the Netherlands.  LePen in France.  Germany too.  Yet we get this constant barrage of America's intolerance when the real virulence is emanating from Europe.  You should clean up your own house before casting aspersions on Trump.  Or maybe that's a way to avoid looking inside yourselves. 

JNB_Rare

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1213 on: March 11, 2017, 10:14:26 pm »

How did they become "them"?

Islam in Bosnia and Herzegovina

For many Serbs (Orthodox Christians), they became "them" when Islam was introduced on a larger scale in the mid to late 15th century during the Ottoman occupation. The Srebrenica Massacre (disputed by some Serbs) and the Kosovo War are perhaps the two most well-known events in recent history that underscore the degree of the enmity between Serbs and Balkan Muslims. As for jihadist, radical Muslims, see Slobodan's earlier link to the article outlining Saudi funding in Kosovo for the promotion of militant ideology; this was begun in earnest after the "ethnic wars" in the 1990's.

Serbs and the predominantly Catholic Croats also have a mutual, historical enmity. During WWII, the pro-Axis Ustaša movement sought to "ethnically cleanse" Serbs, Jews and Roma from their "claimed" Independent State of Croatia. An estimated 100,000 perished. During the conflicts of the 1990's Serbs and Croats routinely accused each other of acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Both groups also fought the (majority-Muslim) Bosniaks, of course, and have been accused of war crimes against them. [Edit: war crime charges were also brought against some Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians.]

I worked for a second-generation Canadian-Serb in the 1970's. Her father never talked about Muslims or Islam. For him, "them" meant the papist Croats and the communists. Until he got too old to travel, he and some old buddies would get together in a US border town once a year and make plans to "go back and fight". Of course, they never did. My boss characterized it as a reunion of old men drinking too much, reliving old hostilities, and mixing up their dentures in the cheap hotel room's only glass. Though she knew the history, she never developed a concept of "them" (much to her father's dismay).


« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 07:32:04 am by JNB_Rare »
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laughingbear

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1214 on: March 12, 2017, 03:56:47 am »

I applaud the reaction of the netherlands! The extreme provocations of the turkish incumbents required a clear response. Merkel signed a faustian pact with Erdogan hence she does not take a stand against the Kalif of Istanbul.

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Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1215 on: March 12, 2017, 06:01:52 am »

I do not get it.

Are you suggesting that Erdogan election rallies in Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe would pose a threat to "the public order and safety"? How can a dozen protesters do so? Surely there are not more than a dozen mentally-unstable people who would support Erdogan? Millions of Muslim immigrants there are by now all democratically oriented, law-abiding, well integrated, and surely would not support a dictator?

Slobodan, you forgot to add the :-) bit!

The surprising thing is to see the women holding banners promoting extremism. Where the milk of human kindness now?

Maybe they are obliged to parade like that or get a thumping when they go home, or rather, get that thumping if they don't leave home with banners. Strident, bitter women are a perversion of the maternal imperative bestowed by nature and biology. Just another corruption in this festering shitpot of today.

32BT

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1216 on: March 12, 2017, 06:30:21 am »

Yet we get this constant barrage of America's intolerance when the real virulence is emanating from Europe.  You should clean up your own house before casting aspersions on Trump.  Or maybe that's a way to avoid looking inside yourselves.

Well, yes, point taken.

1. Current situation in EU is far from ideal and more dangerous than Trump
2. Current reporting surrounding Trump is far from ideal and more dangerous than Trump himself

On the other hand: for someone who holds the keys to a rather destructive nuclear and military potential, he seems to have very limited diplomatic skills, and an equally limited self-expressive & self-reflective capacity. Considering the role that the US has played on the global stage since WWII it is no wonder that the EU is worried about what is happening in the US, especially with current disinformation wars.

 





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32BT

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1217 on: March 12, 2017, 07:06:44 am »

Islam in Bosnia and Herzegovina

For many Serbs (Orthodox Christians), they became "them" when Islam was introduced on a larger scale in the mid to late 15th century during the Ottoman occupation. The Srebrenica Massacre (disputed by some Serbs) and the Kosovo War are perhaps the two most well-known events in recent history that underscore the degree of the enmity between Serbs and Balkan Muslims. As for jihadist, radical Muslims, see Slobodan's earlier link to the article outlining Saudi funding in Kosovo for the promotion of militant ideology; this was begun in earnest after the "ethnic wars" in the 1990's.

Serbs and the predominantly Catholic Croats also have a mutual, historical enmity. During WWII, the pro-Axis Ustaša movement sought to "ethnically cleanse" Serbs, Jews and Roma from their "claimed" Independent State of Croatia. An estimated 100,000 perished. During the conflicts of the 1990's Serbs and Croats routinely accused each other of acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Both groups also fought the (majority-Muslim) Bosniaks, of course, and have been accused of war crimes against them.

I worked for a second-generation Canadian-Serb in the 1970's. Her father never talked about Muslims or Islam. For him, "them" meant the papist Croats and the communists. Until he got too old to travel, he and some old buddies would get together in a US border town once a year and make plans to "go back and fight". Of course, they never did. My boss characterized it as a reunion of old men drinking too much, reliving old hostilities, and mixing up their dentures in the cheap hotel room's only glass. Though she knew the history, she never developed a concept of "them" (much to her father's dismay).

I had a schoolbuddy from Csechia (then called Czechoslovakia). His dad was an accomplished astronomer but since they apparently had quite a few of those, it had been relatively easy to emigrate out of the country. Obviously, their family couldn't visit the west.
Decades later, after the cold war, his grandma could finally come over for a visit.
I remember well his surprise over how his grandma would hush him and start whispering at the mere mention of the words russia and/or politics, afraid as she was that the neighbours might hear.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1218 on: March 12, 2017, 08:03:43 am »

I applaud the reaction of the netherlands! The extreme provocations of the turkish incumbents required a clear response. Merkel signed a faustian pact with Erdogan hence she does not take a stand against the Kalif of Istanbul.

Well, we're just being consistent and will resist international attempts to violate the principles of Non-iterventionism. Turkey claims that the Dutch nationals (some are 3rd generation Dutch with Turkish grandparents) are Turkish residents, and they will treat them the same as those living in Turkey, even on foreign soil. That recently included snitch-lines to the consulate where people could report alleged Gulen sympathizers, and confiscation of their passports when applying for travel documents to visit family in Turkey. Our government made clear that they are not Turkish residents, but Dutch residents with also a Turkish passport, and we will not tolerate such intimidation practices on Dutch nationals.

Attempts to negotiate an orderly visit of the Foreign affairs Minister to speak to some of the potential referendum voters on the consulate's grounds, were torpedoed by Turkey (with the intent to escalate the issue) when our government learned from international media that Turkey threatened with Political and Economic sanctions.

When diplomacy failed, we prevented further escalation among Dutch citizens (some of which with double, Dutch/Turkish, passports) by pulling the landing rights of the inbound Turkish foreign affairs minister. As reaction (purely as provocation), the Turkish government sent their minister of Family affairs (on campaign in Germany) by car from Germany to the Netherlands in order to conduct an unauthorized demonstration.

Legally, that minister of family affairs does not have the political immunity that a.o. her Foreign affairs colleague has. So when she arrived in one of several (to avoid being stopped en-route) convoys in the vicinity of the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam, she was blocked outside the consulate (the whole area was declared to be under special rules for anybody except residents) and was asked to leave the country and when she refused (after locking herself in her car) was escorted back by police to Germany where she came from.

Whether/how this will affect our national elections next Wednesday, remains to be seen.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 08:09:30 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1219 on: March 12, 2017, 09:23:43 am »

Funny how the Dutch play tough when their a$$ is on the line, while criticizing us for the same.
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