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Author Topic: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution  (Read 3092 times)

narikin

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We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« on: January 14, 2017, 10:22:07 pm »

I'm saying this because the Platine paper I've been using for 6+ years have evolved in it's white point quite dramatically, so much so that you can clearly see the change from warm white to a very good clean white.  Quite amazing how they have quietly shifted the brightness of this paper markedly.

I've completely given up on any paper with high OBAs and am really happy to see how they (Felix Schoeller, the main manufacturer) are learning to make their all cotton papers much higher white point, without fluorescent whitening agents. Bravo to them. There really is no excuse for using high OBA papers still, with these great Platines and Baryta's.

It seems unlikely there will be a revolutionary surprise in the coming decade(s), in paper or ink. What there is now is a maturing market that step by step quietly evolves forward, to a point where we have papers and inks much improved from just 5 years ago, without fanfare or noise: all cottons with higher white points and inksets without weak links (Goodbye to Epson's old Yellow!).

 
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HSakols

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 08:19:35 am »

Yes there are so many more flavors to choose from.  I've been sending my friends boxes of prints made from Red River San Gabriel Baryta and they look gorgeous, are wonderful to handle, and smell good too. However, at times I think, under glass does it really matter if I use Baryta or Epson's Premium Luster?  But yes, this is an amazing time to be a fine art printer!
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 11:44:24 am »

I'm saying this because the Platine paper I've been using for 6+ years have evolved in it's white point quite dramatically, so much so that you can clearly see the change from warm white to a very good clean white.  Quite amazing how they have quietly shifted the brightness of this paper markedly.

I've completely given up on any paper with high OBAs and am really happy to see how they (Felix Schoeller, the main manufacturer) are learning to make their all cotton papers much higher white point, without fluorescent whitening agents. Bravo to them. There really is no excuse for using high OBA papers still, with these great Platines and Baryta's.

It seems unlikely there will be a revolutionary surprise in the coming decade(s), in paper or ink. What there is now is a maturing market that step by step quietly evolves forward, to a point where we have papers and inks much improved from just 5 years ago, without fanfare or noise: all cottons with higher white points and inksets without weak links (Goodbye to Epson's old Yellow!).

We can now reasonably trust the longevity of ink color, paper color and the combination of both when the papers are sensibly selected. What remains to do is getting insight on the longevity of the inkjet coating and the bond of the coating to the substrate, in short the mechanical aspects of the substrate. Not just for paper and coating but any polymer layer/barrier that may be used too in that composite.

Among the remaining risks are also insect plagues like that of the Silverfish. I use one paper that is inexpensive given the overall quality it delivers but the Silverfishes are very fond of one of the coating ingredients. I guess it is starch that attracts them.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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deanwork

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 12:10:42 pm »

I'm going to be testing the procedure of making silver contact prints with digital workflow and the OHP film.

So I was on the Large Format Photography forum this morning discussing papers with what's left of the analogue darkroom guys. From everything I can find out by people who specialize in this and do it on a daily basis, there are only a few paper companies left, and most everyone on that list is using Ilford. They all have dye obas and there is nothing you can do about it other than make your own papers, which is a huge commitment. Lupex and Lodima use slow emulsions that are available for contact printing. I'm going to try them both with OHP. But from what I've learned they all have dye brighteners.

So, we digital printmakers have beauty, amazing dmax, super sharpness if we want it, and the best longevity for printmaking on the planet, with the possible exception of platinum/palladium which is a totally different ultra-expensive proposition.

I used to ask why can't Canson put pigment whiteners in the semi-gloss papers like Platine, and then a year later they did and it has become my favorite all over media for color and bw. In regard to inkjet media I am happy to be alive at this time.  3/4 of what I do is on either Canson Rag Photo or Platine. I just hope Epson doesn't completely take them over and cheapen the products they way Agfa did in the 70s with their great papers. Corporations have a way of wrecking a good thing. But I'm an optimistic person :- ), some days.

john
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MHMG

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 12:42:24 pm »


... What there is now is a maturing market that step by step quietly evolves forward, to a point where we have papers and inks much improved from just 5 years ago, without fanfare or noise: all cottons with higher white points and inksets without weak links (Goodbye to Epson's old Yellow!).

But RC media are still very popular for a number of reasons including cost, uniform surface texture and great color gamut, ability to get a clean edge cut along with ease of cold mounting to rigid panels, large roll width availability, i.e 60 inch wide rolls for printers like Epson's new SC P20000,  and a cool white color (regrettably from OBA content) that many printmakers find pleasing. Epson's Premium Luster photo paper is arguably one of the most popular inkjet papers on the market today (the wide format rolls being marketed at least in the U.S.A. with the term "archival" featured prominently in the product name), and it is widely represented in museum and gallery collections at this time.  I point this out because now that Epson has an improved yellow colorant in its latest pigmented ink sets, Epson's "weak link" has shifted decidedly towards underperforming media branded under the Epson label.  Epson's Premium Luster has inherited the mantle of being Epson's "weakest" link due to its light induced yellowing and staining issues. It is worse than Epson Exhibition Fiber paper (called Traditional Fiber paper in Europe) that although a non RC paper sold at a premium price, also has other serious light induced yellowing issues. Epson's Premium Luster's whitepoint stability issues are not unique in the RC photo media category. The light induced dark staining phenomenon is fairly common to varying degrees in many RC photo media including the traditional wet process Fuji Crystal Archive paper, but Premium Luster exhibits some of the highest stain levels I've encountered to date.   IMHO, the industry needs to reverse engineer why some RC media are so much worse than other RC media, and then reformulate the bad apples.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 01:23:30 pm by MHMG »
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 03:57:01 pm »

I'm going to be testing the procedure of making silver contact prints with digital workflow and the OHP film.

So I was on the Large Format Photography forum this morning discussing papers with what's left of the analogue darkroom guys. From everything I can find out by people who specialize in this and do it on a daily basis, there are only a few paper companies left, and most everyone on that list is using Ilford. They all have dye obas and there is nothing you can do about it other than make your own papers, which is a huge commitment. Lupex and Lodima use slow emulsions that are available for contact printing. I'm going to try them both with OHP. But from what I've learned they all have dye brighteners.

So, we digital printmakers have beauty, amazing dmax, super sharpness if we want it, and the best longevity for printmaking on the planet, with the possible exception of platinum/palladium which is a totally different ultra-expensive proposition.

I used to ask why can't Canson put pigment whiteners in the semi-gloss papers like Platine, and then a year later they did and it has become my favorite all over media for color and bw. In regard to inkjet media I am happy to be alive at this time.  3/4 of what I do is on either Canson Rag Photo or Platine. I just hope Epson doesn't completely take them over and cheapen the products they way Agfa did in the 70s with their great papers. Corporations have a way of wrecking a good thing. But I'm an optimistic person :- ), some days.

john

John,
I've been thinking about your going back and doing Silver contact prints with digital film negatives.  The hybrid approach is interesting, from the standpoint that it updates the film negative technology.  Presumably making contact prints will involve either old chemistry or updated new chemistry based on the old.  I n making these prints, the allure is in using the cross fertilization of digital with vintage technology.  I would think that going to this realm of artifact, presumably to increase "museum heft", it might be amazing to produce your own paper as well.  I'm not talking about many papers, but rather standardizng on one in particular.  I would think a few calls to paper producers to get base products, rolls which have not been finally processed might be possible, and you could add the coatings in-house, or farm it out with a paper maker with an open mind.  I think back to Fred Picker's Brilliant papers that we used, which were no doubt re-branded from some existing paper, but it added a particular cache to the finished piece - made it just different, more unusual, like washed in unobtanium or something.  Light emulsion paper coatings are available and a small setup in a larger darkroom can make this possible.If you're going forward to the past, I encourage you to give some thought to branding your own paper.  How cool would that be, really.

Mark
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 04:01:13 pm by Mark Lindquist »
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Mark Lindquist
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 04:30:20 am »


So I was on the Large Format Photography forum this morning discussing papers with what's left of the analogue darkroom guys. From everything I can find out by people who specialize in this and do it on a daily basis, there are only a few paper companies left, and most everyone on that list is using Ilford. They all have dye obas and there is nothing you can do about it other than make your own papers, which is a huge commitment. Lupex and Lodima use slow emulsions that are available for contact printing. I'm going to try them both with OHP. But from what I've learned they all have dye brighteners.
 
john

About two years ago I added the spectral plots of the Ilford (Harman made) silver halide papers to SpectrumViz. So at least you can check which types have the least OBA content. I love to add more spectral plots of silver halide papers including types that are no longer in production. If someone has manufacturer's sample books in good condition they could be a good source for my measurements. The plots could serve as a tool to compare silver halide paper whites with inkjet paper whites for anyone switching forth or back in techniques. In time I see SpectrumViz's spectral plots as a tool to check the origins of photo prints in general. Some months ago I did a restoration job on an art assemblage that had Agfa Copyproof print material (document paper) as its base, spectral plots helped in that case.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots



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narikin

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 10:27:08 pm »

But RC media are still very popular for a number of reasons including cost, uniform surface texture and great color gamut, ability to get a clean edge cut along with ease of cold mounting to rigid panels, large roll width availability, i.e 60 inch wide rolls for printers like Epson's new SC P20000,  and a cool white color (regrettably from OBA content) that many printmakers find pleasing. Epson's Premium Luster photo paper is arguably one of the most popular inkjet papers on the market today (the wide format rolls being marketed at least in the U.S.A. with the term "archival" featured prominently in the product name), and it is widely represented in museum and gallery collections at this time.  I point this out because now that Epson has an improved yellow colorant in its latest pigmented ink sets, Epson's "weak link" has shifted decidedly towards underperforming media branded under the Epson label.  Epson's Premium Luster has inherited the mantle of being Epson's "weakest" link due to its light induced yellowing and staining issues. It is worse than Epson Exhibition Fiber paper (called Traditional Fiber paper in Europe) that although a non RC paper sold at a premium price, also has other serious light induced yellowing issues. Epson's Premium Luster's whitepoint stability issues are not unique in the RC photo media category. The light induced dark staining phenomenon is fairly common to varying degrees in many RC photo media including the traditional wet process Fuji Crystal Archive paper, but Premium Luster exhibits some of the highest stain levels I've encountered to date.   IMHO, the industry needs to reverse engineer why some RC media are so much worse than other RC media, and then reformulate the bad apples.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Shocked/ sad to hear that Mark - the yellow staining on Epson Luster. It is my affordable 'go-to' for proofing out prints. And I thought I could use it for final prints at a pinch. It seems not though.  Still, an affordable paper in all sizes (indeed I have 60" class printers) for proofing is not to be sneezed at.

I read that Epson's Proofing Paper Semi Matte (is that the current name? - they keep changing it!) also has dreadful dark yellowing.  Does anything RC make the cut at all? Canon's Heavyweight Satin got amazing results on your testing, iirc, despite having OBAs! but they stopped selling it in big rolls, mainly because they didn't package it right, and 100ft rolls of 300lb paper does not get through UPS unscathed without good packing...






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GrahamBy

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2017, 04:52:51 am »

For proofing, I can't see why staining should be an issue. However given that eg Greg Crewdson has sold large and expensive works on Epson Lustre, it may well be important.

Are there any published data? I know MHMG is collecting money to perform thorough tests, but is there preliminary empirical data, or does the concern come only from the theoretical break-down pathways of the chemistry? Mark (MHMG), it wasn't clear to me if this should be apparent from your existing evaluations of papers and inks? If so, which results show the problem best?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2017, 05:23:45 am »

Epson Proofing Paper White Semi-Matte? The one this test is based on;
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AaI_20140217_SN001Lf.pdf?x18545

It does not have OBA content according Mark's measurements and I have not measured it either. In the AI normal test the white is one of the most stable and what I recall is that it did not have the dark/exposure issue either.

I wonder however whether Mark has new evidence of OBA in that paper or phrased the following a bit odd:

"Epson Proofing Paper White SemiMatte. Epson’s proofing paper differs from the Canon and Epson photo luster media because it contains no OBAs in the PE layers, only OBAs in the paper core where they are more isolated from direct light exposure and also certain light- reactive aspects of the PE/TiO2 chemistry".
 
It suggests no dark storage issue BTW but I also do not see a higher OBA effect at the back of that paper in my spectral plots. I know the limitations of my measurements (UV light wavelength limitation) and am aware of the UV absorption as shown in the spectral plots. For which I have no sound explication other than a possible high TiO2 content. Could be that the back has an opaque white PE layer instead of the transparent one usually found there.
There have been papers made by the late Ilford that were constructed like Mark describes here for the Epson paper. Whether the more recent Ilford variety is similar I do not know. For the last green plots in the attached image, red for the old one.

The Canon Heavyweight Satin that had good AI test results could have the dark storage problem though. OBA effect at the front even slightly higher than at the back. check the other attached image.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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MHMG

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2017, 09:31:06 am »

Epson Proofing Paper White Semi-Matte? The one this test is based on;
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AaI_20140217_SN001Lf.pdf?x18545

It does not have OBA content according Mark's measurements and I have not measured it either. In the AI normal test the white is one of the most stable and what I recall is that it did not have the dark/exposure issue either.

I wonder however whether Mark has new evidence of OBA in that paper or phrased the following a bit odd:

"Epson Proofing Paper White SemiMatte. Epson’s proofing paper differs from the Canon and Epson photo luster media because it contains no OBAs in the PE layers, only OBAs in the paper core where they are more isolated from direct light exposure and also certain light- reactive aspects of the PE/TiO2 chemistry".
 
It suggests no dark storage issue BTW but I also do not see a higher OBA effect at the back of that paper in my spectral plots. I know the limitations of my measurements (UV light wavelength limitation) and am aware of the UV absorption as shown in the spectral plots. For which I have no sound explication other than a possible high TiO2 content. Could be that the back has an opaque white PE layer instead of the transparent one usually found there.
There have been papers made by the late Ilford that were constructed like Mark describes here for the Epson paper. Whether the more recent Ilford variety is similar I do not know. For the last green plots in the attached image, red for the old one.

The Canon Heavyweight Satin that had good AI test results could have the dark storage problem though. OBA effect at the front even slightly higher than at the back. check the other attached image.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

As many of you know, RC media are comprised of a typical base paper sheet sandwiched between a top and bottom polyethylene (PE) layer. Titanium Dioxide (TiO2) is used as the whitening agent and embedded directly into the Top PE layer, sometimes but not always in the bottom PE layer as well. The image forming layer(s) (ie., gelatin layers for silver halide RC photo, or inkjet receptor layers for inkjet RC photo paper), are adhered to the top PE/TiO2 layer. Adhesion of the image forming layer to the PE/TiO2 is one of many problematic aspects of RC media for long term stability, but let's leave that issue out of the discussion for today.  Anticurl layers are also typically used on the verso, ie. adhered to the bottom PE layer.. Unlike the vast majority of the RC media sold as photo papers, the Epson Proofing Paper White Semimatte (EpPPWSM) is free of OBAs in the image forming layer, and more importantly, also not included in the top PE/TiO2 layer. There are OBAs contained in the base paper sheet, however, but the PE/TiO2 layer has very strong UV absorbing opacity such that any OBAs in the base sheet hiding below that layer aren't activated very strongly and have very little effect on the whitepoint properties of the RC media. Thus, when Ernst and I measure the media whitepoint reflected spectral response of EpPPWSM that hiding power of the TiO2 largely prevents the UV fluorescence of the base sheet OBAs, and our instrumentation reads an "OBA-free" response.  However, if you cross section the EpPPWSM paper and view under a microscope, you can see that OBAs are present in the base sheet.

Probably because the EpPPWSM paper has no OBAs in the ink receptor coating nor in the top PE layer, my informal studies of the light induced staining phenomenon to date show none of the light induced yellowing exhibited by numerous other popular RC photo papers. I have heard of one anecdotal report from photo conservation colleagues of EpPPWSM exhibiting some yellowing in a dark stored environment, and if that report is true, it is undoubtedly caused by air pollution rather than light induced since the product had been in dark storage from the start. I have not been able to replicate the gas pollution issue, but many microporous inkjet media exhibit yellowing sensitivity to various air pollutants, so I don't think the the air pollutant issue is unique to the EpPPWSM. My own oldest samples of dark stored EpPPWSM paper are now over 3 years old, and the still look and even print as new. 

There is quite a range to the magnitude of the light-induced dark storage staining problem, with some papers like Epson Premium luster and glossy RC media examples developing high stain levels after light exposure tests, whereas other media like the now discontinued Canon Heavyweight Satin photo paper or Kodak's older formulation of its Kodak Professional Luster paper exhibit far less stain. Unfortunately, after the Kodak bankruptcy, its inkjet media was picked up by BMG, and the recent marketing literature suggests it has been reformulated. Among other attributes is now the claim of "brighter white", which is often marketspeak for more OBAs, so the Kodak Professional Luster paper needs to be retested.  Fuji Crystal Archive II paper, a traditional wet process RC photo paper, lands some where midrange in the levels of stain I've measured to date after the light fade test samples were retired to dark storage for several months or more. The fact that both silver halide wet process papers as well as inkjet paper exhibit the light induced post-exposure yellowing problems in subsequent dark storage indicates this staining phenomenon is not just an inkjet paper issue nor can it be blamed entirely on residual color coupler staining or poor processing in the wet process media as many conservation specialists have long thought when encountering subsequent yellowing problems in traditional RC photo media.

The samples I already have in testing of EpPPSWM to date remain free of any measurable light induced yellowing, thus strongly suggesting to me that this light induced yellowing issue can quickly be reverse engineered by RC media manufacturers if they become more aware of the problem. I think at this point in time they simply aren't aware of it, because a typical lighfade test or a dark stored thermal aging test won't trigger the problem. One has to do a combined light and dark stored testing sequence in order to observe the problem.   Much more research to do. The latest round of testing at Aardenburg Imaging is being performed with newer and much faster i1Pro2 instrumentation which will help us track more samples of the same media including dark storage controls, and other samples retired to dark storage after specific light exposure doses have first been applied. Hopefully, this new and ongoing research will begin to give the printmaking community better information on choice of RC media and ultimately lead to an industry solution to the problem as well.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 09:44:54 am by MHMG »
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narikin

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Re: We are in *evolution* now with inkjet paper, not revolution
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2017, 02:01:16 pm »

Thanks Mark for that detailed reply.

 It's reassuring to know that you are 'on it' with researching Light Induced Dark Staining, but... it's terrifying too. It means that you read all the data, get minimal/no OBA paper, check the light fading tests, but then, they all might be irrelevant, or worse, completely misleading, as the paper will yellow in the dark!

This is also the most likely long term use of photographs in any collection, private or museum - new works are displayed for awhile, a few months or years, and then retired to (dark) storage for much longer. Precisely the problem that coming to light for these papers.

Clearly the argument is, use them for proofing and nothing else. Use OBA free all cotton for the final print. Period.

I had heard of problems with the Epson Proofing paper yellowing in dark storage, suspected to be NOX in the atmosphere, so we'll see what we'll see.

Thanks for your hard work on this. I am a contributor to your project.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 03:35:20 pm by narikin »
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