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Author Topic: Physics?  (Read 5922 times)

Rob C

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Physics?
« on: December 21, 2016, 04:36:32 am »

Jim Metzger

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 09:01:52 am »

First, perhaps you could explain the "cartoon" to my brother who directly witnessed the second plane go in. And have you ever seen the demonstration of a soda straw driven into a potato?

Jim

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Rob C

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 09:09:54 am »

Hi Rob and Merry Christmas,

Physics or not, my cousin was killed that morning at the WTC...

Peter

Merry Season to you too, Peter; as you say, however or why ever, the human tragedy remains forever undiminished.

Hope you are fully mobile by now - I'm almost frozen stiff, and wearing a woolly hat, in the office, as I write! Yesterday and today we 'enjoy/enjoyed' gales; the rain is relentless and the sunny Mediterranean feels but a figment of a fevered imagination. Summer can't return rapidly enough! Thank God my early dreams of living here on a boat were never realised. My wife always had more sense than did I.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 09:24:17 am »

First, perhaps you could explain the "cartoon" to my brother who directly witnessed the second plane go in. And have you ever seen the demonstration of a soda straw driven into a potato?

Jim


Jim, I can't and don't pretend to explain anything about it.

A video further down the list shows the effect of controlled explosions, and the demolition explosives skill it takes to bring a tall building down in its own footprint. There are also some type inconsistencies in the formation of the dust clouds, whose appearance matches volcanic action rather than what is supposedy consistent with the heat generated by jet fuel, and which would suggest that ignition of far higher temperature producing materials was present.

There has also been speculation of how, what appears to resemble the front part of an aircraft (nose and cockpit), could possibly travel through a building and emerge the other side, retaining its shape. Was it ever found?

As I say, no ideas of my own on the matter, but it is an interesting set of indications that perhaps things were not as they were thought to have been.

Rob

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 09:36:42 am »

I expect that all this is explained, clearly, somewhere. We just need to find the best Fake News Site for the explanation. ???
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eronald

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 09:39:52 am »

Last week, I was talking to a young man at a bar in Paris, he told me his father was a french firefighter on an exchange program in NY, who went out with his US colleagues and died during the 9/11 response.

Needless to say, financial compensation etc provided by various charities, financial organisations etc,  to US citizens didn't extend to him although apparently he was posthumously awarded a medal ...

It seems that President Bush with his celebrated you can be "with us or against us" was very quick to forget those Europeans who literally sacrificed their lives to be helpful, while kidnapping and renditioning European citizens who the CIA designated as suspect. 9/11 was a terrible blow to the US, the start gun for the Middle East bloodshed we are still witnessing, but also a watershed in US/ally relationships.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 09:45:11 am by eronald »
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Rob C

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 11:01:42 am »

Don't know about "best fake news" but the older I become the less I believe of anything that I have not seen for myself. And even then, I can't vouch for the reasons nor the people behind such things...

I just know from having lived through the times and the days and the first-hand experiences of industrial unrest, that I wouldn't believe a single word of 'justification' that any union leader puts out into the world at press interviews. These guys are capable of saying absolutely anything, and have their intended audience lap it up wholesale. The same holds for politicians, and other leaders of all stripes. Always seek the hidden agenda, and if you find it - sometimes its hidden in plain view - you will be amazed at the ability some have to lie through their teeth. Were this not blatantly true, you wouldn't be able to have different newspapers publishing diametrically opposed views on everything, and consistently loading the dice in the same direction in order to promote ideas and retain a buying readership. It's not about truth, its about money-making and politician-changing propaganda, and truth is alien to the trip.

If I were to try to form a personal view on the reason for the Twin Towers tragedy, I would be inclined to ask who could imagine any joy from it. The first idea would be revenge for the long-term support for clearly illegal land-grabbing actions in the Middle East, the concept of client states, banking and its top brass, and unrelenting practical support for one player in the Palestinian situation might have something to do with it; the next question I'd find coming to mind would be this: who benefits financially from expensive military action? I have no answers to this either, only questions and doubts.

Rob

MattBurt

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2016, 11:26:25 am »

I expect that all this is explained, clearly, somewhere. We just need to find the best Fake News Site for the explanation. ???

+1,000,000
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N80

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 12:02:03 pm »

9/11 was a terrible blow to the US, the start gun for the Middle East bloodshed we are still witnessing

Hardly. That gun went off decades ago. 9/11 was but another chapter.

Quote
but also a watershed in US/ally relationships.

Edmund

Hardly. The rhetoric changed. But the west still knows where to run when the chips are down. This may sound like US chest thumping. Sorry if it does. But that doesn't change the truth.
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eronald

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2016, 01:09:09 pm »

Hardly. That gun went off decades ago. 9/11 was but another chapter.

Hardly. The rhetoric changed. But the west still knows where to run when the chips are down. This may sound like US chest thumping. Sorry if it does. But that doesn't change the truth.

Actually we don't.

By the way, another fake news item for you - Ben Laden and many of his terrorist staff in Afghanistan and 9/11 were Saudi, and the money and weapons for him while he was fighting the soviets came from ... Washington and so did the training. Ben Laden essentially got a custom PhD in terrorism.

You know something? There is no difference between a terrorist and a "freedom fighter". Arming the ethnic Kurds to fight Assad in Syria may or to cleanse Mosul of Sunni ISIS sympathisers may make sense in Washington, but the same Kurds are setting bombs and killing people in the streets in Turkey every day. The Al Nusra "rebels" in Syria (rebranded Al Quaada) and the Kurdish terrorists in Turkey will keep killing over there and in Europe, for the next 20 years, whatever happens to Assad and his minions. And all that training and financing of murder will come back to haunt us.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:19:49 pm by eronald »
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N80

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 02:56:17 pm »

Actually we don't.

That's funny. Can you imagine what defense budgets would look like in Europe without the US looking over their shoulder.

Quote
By the way, another fake news item for you - Ben Laden and many of his terrorist staff in Afghanistan and 9/11 were Saudi, and the money and weapons for him while he was fighting the soviets came from ... Washington and so did the training. Ben Laden essentially got a custom PhD in terrorism.

That's not news. Hasn't been news since shortly after 9/11. Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is your friend. The US has historically been terrible at choosing that sort of 'friend'. That includes the Shah of Iran and the Saudis. Dates back to the 1700's. No news there either. But the options are never clear and western Europe certainly has no better record than the US so that point is moot.

Quote
You know something? There is no difference between a terrorist and a "freedom fighter". Arming the ethnic Kurds to fight Assad in Syria may or to cleanse Mosul of Sunni ISIS sympathisers may make sense in Washington, but the same Kurds are setting bombs and killing people in the streets in Turkey every day.

Yep. Terrible stuff. Hard to navigate. A veritable mine field. But unless you, Europe or whoever have a rock solid diplomatic, economic, political or military solution then again, the point is moot. Europe constantly looks to the US to do the dirty work and then criticizes us for it. France is the worst. And even while publicly criticizing how we do things, under the table there is quiet assent. Its a double standard we've learned to live with. No one here in the US claims we've done everything right. None of us on either side of the political isle is happy about how things have gone for the last 16 years. We do the best we can and what we do is usually better than doing nothing. On top of that, what one president accomplishes, another dismantles and vice versa. That's life.

Quote
The Al Nusra "rebels" in Syria (rebranded Al Quaada) and the Kurdish terrorists in Turkey will keep killing over there and in Europe, for the next 20 years, whatever happens to Assad and his minions. And all that training and financing of murder will come back to haunt us.

Probably. There are no good players there. And there are plenty of us in the US that are sick of it all and would love to withdraw from the world stage. We're sick of our young men dying for nothing. But the middle east and Europe would pay an enormous price if we are off the table. And Islam is only a fraction of the problem. Ask Ukraine.

Edmund
[/quote]
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eronald

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 05:17:37 pm »

I see no Saudis on the Champs Elysées any more. Maybe they know something we don't. In my personal opinion, the Saudis greenlit the ISIS attack -as a warning over the COP21 talks which effectively caps their oil revenues-  and the US while not instigating or condoning did not warn the french before, maybe because they didn't realize the scale of the op, or had assets involved that they didn't want to lose. The face of Mr Hollande at the Washington "dear Francois" press conference made it very apparent that the US administration did not want to be of help in this particular matter. Since then, the Saudis have decided to do an IPO for Aramco, making Wall Street, and the administration happy.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-aramco-ipo-wall-streets-white-whale-1465464606

Edmund

That's funny. Can you imagine what defense budgets would look like in Europe without the US looking over their shoulder.

That's not news. Hasn't been news since shortly after 9/11. Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is your friend. The US has historically been terrible at choosing that sort of 'friend'. That includes the Shah of Iran and the Saudis. Dates back to the 1700's. No news there either. But the options are never clear and western Europe certainly has no better record than the US so that point is moot.

Yep. Terrible stuff. Hard to navigate. A veritable mine field. But unless you, Europe or whoever have a rock solid diplomatic, economic, political or military solution then again, the point is moot. Europe constantly looks to the US to do the dirty work and then criticizes us for it. France is the worst. And even while publicly criticizing how we do things, under the table there is quiet assent. Its a double standard we've learned to live with. No one here in the US claims we've done everything right. None of us on either side of the political isle is happy about how things have gone for the last 16 years. We do the best we can and what we do is usually better than doing nothing. On top of that, what one president accomplishes, another dismantles and vice versa. That's life.

Probably. There are no good players there. And there are plenty of us in the US that are sick of it all and would love to withdraw from the world stage. We're sick of our young men dying for nothing. But the middle east and Europe would pay an enormous price if we are off the table. And Islam is only a fraction of the problem. Ask Ukraine.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 05:28:26 pm by eronald »
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N80

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 05:46:02 pm »

Yep. The world is a dirty place and money is at the heart of it. Money talks. In the US, in Europe, in the Middle East. I'm not sure what your point is. If you are trying to make the point that the US is the root of the problem, well, fine. You can certainly make that case and it will look like a good one taken in isolation. But making the case in isolation is the same as bending the truth. Because it is going on everywhere with everybody and for all of time. I'm not making excuses for the US, mind you, but to suggest that this is somehow one-sided (which you may not be doing, hopefully) is beyond naive.

And if it is true that the US is the great purveyor of evil, avarice and global violence then Europe is as complicit as anyone else in the world. Batman and Robin if you will. And if Europe or any part of it deems itself to be above that fray then they need to put their money where their mouth is and quit asking us to help them in their own struggles with Islam and even more so, quit expecting us to keep Putin out of Eastern Europe. Can you imagine what it costs the US to keep Putin at bay? Shoot, we could have all that wonderful socialized medicine that they have in Europe if we didn't have to keep Russia in its borders. But then the job would fall to Europe wouldn't it? And who would foot that bill? Yep. Germany. And that's what everyone wants. Germany, full of Islamic immigrants and rising nationalism, a giant military, trouble with its economy to pay for the military and no money left to support the crumbling economy of the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) who will be oh so helpful defending Europe from Russia.
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eronald

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2016, 06:24:01 pm »

Seeing the number of people who got killed and are getting offed now in the Bush war followups, and pissing contests with the Russians, of which Syria is one, I think the US getting back to the center lane would do much to quieten the world down. There is a lot of money to be made in business as usual, as the Chinese have been proving of late. When you put the hammer away, the world stops looking like a nail ...

Edmund

Yep. The world is a dirty place and money is at the heart of it. Money talks. In the US, in Europe, in the Middle East. I'm not sure what your point is. If you are trying to make the point that the US is the root of the problem, well, fine. You can certainly make that case and it will look like a good one taken in isolation. But making the case in isolation is the same as bending the truth. Because it is going on everywhere with everybody and for all of time. I'm not making excuses for the US, mind you, but to suggest that this is somehow one-sided (which you may not be doing, hopefully) is beyond naive.

And if it is true that the US is the great purveyor of evil, avarice and global violence then Europe is as complicit as anyone else in the world. Batman and Robin if you will. And if Europe or any part of it deems itself to be above that fray then they need to put their money where their mouth is and quit asking us to help them in their own struggles with Islam and even more so, quit expecting us to keep Putin out of Eastern Europe. Can you imagine what it costs the US to keep Putin at bay? Shoot, we could have all that wonderful socialized medicine that they have in Europe if we didn't have to keep Russia in its borders. But then the job would fall to Europe wouldn't it? And who would foot that bill? Yep. Germany. And that's what everyone wants. Germany, full of Islamic immigrants and rising nationalism, a giant military, trouble with its economy to pay for the military and no money left to support the crumbling economy of the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) who will be oh so helpful defending Europe from Russia.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 06:27:10 pm by eronald »
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N80

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 06:41:25 pm »

Seeing the number of people who got killed in the Bush wars and followups, of which Syria is one, I think the US getting back to the center lane would do much to quieten the world down. There is a lot of money to be made in business as usual, as the Chinese have been proving of late.

I'm not going to defend the "Bush wars" but the "and followups" part IS particularly relevant since Obama's pre-announced departure from Iraq, which was relatively stable at the time, pretty much single handedly opened the doors for the former Bathists to form ISIL. So play the Bush blame game all you want. (Even though no one wants to hear that excuse 8 years later) ISIL is Obama's fault and so is Syria. He repeatedly dropped the ball on Syria. He abdicated the sort of influence that could have prevented the situation we have now and he abdicated it to Putin. And all that in the name of staying in your mythical "center lane". And let's not forget the Europe gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize before he had ever done ANYTHING, presumably on the hope that he would do NOTHING. Nothing is what he did. ISIL and Syria are the product of that inactivity. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, right?

The other relevant tidbit in all this is how Russia conducts itself in war. Particularly when Islam is involved. They are ruthless. They do not waste their money and their young men's lives trying to avoid humanitarian catastrophes or civilian deaths. (The US does. So many of our young men die because we commit to playing nice.) The take home message here is that nothing has changed, since 1917, in how Russia treats its enemies. Europe seems to have forgotten that. And so soon. At their own peril. If the Crimea does not worry Europe then Europe is primed and ready for yet another Euro-Centric world war.

And if that happens, or anything like it, Europe dang well better hope the US is NOT cruising down that Eutopian center lane. Nationalism and isolationism are rising across the globe. If it takes hold here, and Trump probably wants it to, the US is going to be increasingly reluctant to spend money and blood bailing out an ungrateful and equally nationalistic Europe....again.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2016, 07:29:58 am »

That's funny. Can you imagine what defense budgets would look like in Europe without the US looking over their shoulder.

That's a good point but maybe not in the way you intend. The US has about 700 military bases in over 120 countries. I don't think things like that happen unless the USA wanted it that way. To suggest that it's because the rest of the world wants a worldwide US policeman might be a bit previous. Imo, the other countries in the world, including mine, would be better off if they made themselves responsible for their own military preparedness. But would the USA really like that?

It might be better for the rest of the world if they did not rely on the USA, and it might be better for the USA as well, if for no other reason than to alleviate their own budget constraints. So why isn't this happening? I think it's stating the obvious that someone doesn't want it to happen.

In some speech or other, Trump talked about pulling out of NATO (maybe he said that explicitly or hinted, I can't remember), saying that other countries should look after themselves. A lot of people in the rest of the world agree with that. Let's see if it happens.
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Re: Physics?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 09:07:00 am »

I'm not claiming the US doesn't have overseas interests. It does. Most people feel that it should. But if we have bases in Europe, they are there at the pleasure of that nation. So while we may want them there, so does the host nation.

Again, I'll agree with you, I'd just as soon we not be involved in another one of Europe's self inflicted conflagrations. I'm a bit of an isolationist. But let's be real. Europe has enjoyed the stability and relative prosperity of the last 50 years because of the US. To deny that would be naive and unrealistic. Have we gained from that relationship too. Of course. But let's also be real about European history: you guys can't get along with each other and at least in the last 100 or so years you look to the US when things go south. The future may be different. And the wealthy western European nations may think it is time for the training wheels to come off. I'm all for that too. But the level of naivety and misplaced optimism involved in that sort of thinking is staggering given the size and power of Russia with its swaggering, ultra-nationalist KGB-gangster of a president. And I'll bet you that nations like Hungary will not share that feeling of freedom-from-the-US either. They still remember Soviet tanks in their streets and the bullet holes in walls and buildings from the 1950's are still evident in Budapest today.

So sure, get the US out of Europe. The man on the street here in the US would be all too happy to oblige. But don't expect us to come running back when Putin takes all of Ukraine or whoever else he wants OR when your Islamic immigrant crisis boils over..........which is going to be very very soon.
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bassman51

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 09:17:28 pm »


Jim, I can't and don't pretend to explain anything about it.

A video further down the list shows the effect of controlled explosions, and the demolition explosives skill it takes to bring a tall building down in its own footprint. There are also some type inconsistencies in the formation of the dust clouds, whose appearance matches volcanic action rather than what is supposedy consistent with the heat generated by jet fuel, and which would suggest that ignition of far higher temperature producing materials was present.

There has also been speculation of how, what appears to resemble the front part of an aircraft (nose and cockpit), could possibly travel through a building and emerge the other side, retaining its shape. Was it ever found?

As I say, no ideas of my own on the matter, but it is an interesting set of indications that perhaps things were not as they were thought to have been.

Rob

From a vantage point across the Hudson from midtown NYC, I saw the nose of the second plane come thru the tower with my own eyes.   Live.  Thru a window.  It stopped the conversation. 
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Rob C

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2016, 04:48:10 am »

From a vantage point across the Hudson from midtown NYC, I saw the nose of the second plane come thru the tower with my own eyes.   Live.  Thru a window.  It stopped the conversation.


I'm surprised there was a conversation to stop!

Was the nose ever found and examined? Or did it vanish into the security 'mystery' that seems to have shrouded everything else about that awful day? Were any 'black boxes' recovered? From my memory of the event, everything seemed and still seems to have been blanked out except for the rattling of sabres.

I'm still curious about the subterranean fires that reportedly burned on for so long; where did the oxygen continue to come from or, are the reports about oxygen-producing forms of very hot explosives based on reasonable considerations? I guess that the more there is of governmental news black-outs, the higher the levels of speculation will become. It would seem rather pointless having such black-outs over a reality so obvious to the entire world: the buildings were brought down. By whom or why will always remain in public doubt.

Rob

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Re: Physics?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2016, 08:42:14 am »

I don't think most citizens of the US have any serious doubts about what happened that day. Those that do are still looking for Hitler and Oswald's accomplice. There was a documentary done about the collapse of the towers that provided very adequate mechanisms for what happened. Was it government propaganda? No. But that won't keep the conspiracy theorists satisfied.
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