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Author Topic: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS  (Read 6726 times)

NackJich

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Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« on: December 05, 2016, 07:01:58 am »

Is it possible that someone has one of these and it's just gathering dust? Please get in touch ...
They were once bundled with the HP Z3100 printer and I wonder if they are tied to the printer by licence/activation/dongle etc, or will it just work with my Z3200PS?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 03:28:11 pm by NackJich »
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smikkelmit22

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2016, 08:39:58 am »

Hi,

Looking for the same. I was able to download the software from: http://www.giainteractive.com/aps/EN/update.html

But that is all.

Did you find a solution?
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NackJich

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2016, 09:58:06 am »

Thanks Skippelmit22 I have managed to get one now from another member. Just received it a couple if days ago!! Software included..
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smikkelmit22

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2016, 06:12:06 pm »

Perfect,

Have you tried the software? If so, what is your experience?

Is it worth investing in?
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dkennedy2016

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2016, 03:21:47 pm »

I bought the HP APS for my Z3200 Photo a couple years back.  What are you hoping to achieve with it--that may help in answering "is it worth it?"  As for the question about activating it, that is a non-issue so long as you buy the full kit with the HP-branded EyeOne colorimeter.  The colorimeter acts as a dongle.  So, if you can come across a used one, you'll certainly be able to get it to work.

I can say from my own experience that there is good and not-as-good with the APS.  Maybe someone else has been more successful, but one of the things I wanted to be able to do was use the software to create .TIF targets, print them on other printers, and then use the software to read the targets with the Z3200's on-board i1....I've yet to make that dream come true after several attempts over the last couple years.  (Every so often I get a bright idea to try again, because using the built in spectro to make profiles for my smaller printer would be handy).

I can use that software to print and then read significantly more advanced charts on the Z3200...but for some reason, once that page is cut, re-feeding it to the printer to be read typically yields results that would be funny if they didn't waste so much time.  For instance, sometimes you can get it to read color data, but then it won't actually generate a color profile.  I figured, "hey, no problem, there's Argyll."  See my previous statement about results that could be funny...

Again, if you're planning on making the printer create and read really large targets for itself and create profiles it can use, then you'll definitely get what you want.  As a bonus, you get a decent, if somewhat older colorimeter.

Now, if someone else reads this and has better luck profiling other printers/papers with the Z3200's i1, please share how!

FWIW, I've tried on both Windows 7 and Windows 10 both via USB and over Ethernet.
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Damir

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2016, 04:37:28 am »

I had no problem calibrating smaller printers as long as they can print A3+ page. You can find instruction for this here if you search LULA.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 11:29:39 am by Damir »
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2016, 07:57:52 am »

I can use that software to print and then read significantly more advanced charts on the Z3200...but for some reason, once that page is cut, re-feeding it to the printer to be read typically yields results that would be funny if they didn't waste so much time.  For instance, sometimes you can get it to read color data, but then it won't actually generate a color profile.  I figured, "hey, no problem, there's Argyll."  See my previous statement about results that could be funny...
(...)
Now, if someone else reads this and has better luck profiling other printers/papers with the Z3200's i1, please share how!

I do it quite often, yesterday I profiled 5 different papers for the Canon Pro 1 using the Z3200 spectrophotometer. I wrote a tutorial about it a few weeks ago: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=114961.0

Good luck.
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smikkelmit22

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2016, 04:23:21 pm »

I do it quite often, yesterday I profiled 5 different papers for the Canon Pro 1 using the Z3200 spectrophotometer. I wrote a tutorial about it a few weeks ago: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=114961.0

Good luck.

Thanks, i just bought a used one. i will read your tutorial about it.
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dkennedy2016

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2016, 06:06:01 pm »

I had no problem calibrating smaller printers as long as they can print A3+ page. You can find instruction for this here is you search LULA.
I've tried both APS and the Color Center and when I have been able to get the z3200 to read the chart, I've been unsuccessful in turning that data into a usable .icc profile (the results were strange at best.)  Today, I decided to launch into this again for the first time in about a year (maybe twice a year I get motivated to try to make this work, pull my hair out, and decide to let it rest since most of my printing is done with the z3200 any ways.  The a3+ printer is a paperweight at times, albeit a  large one.  When you profile other printers, are you using APS or the Color Center?

That leads me to:

I do it quite often, yesterday I profiled 5 different papers for the Canon Pro 1 using the Z3200 spectrophotometer. I wrote a tutorial about it a few weeks ago: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=114961.0

Good luck.

I do appreciate your tutorial.  Unfortunately, having fed multiple iterations of the charts into the z3200 today, I've come to a grinding halt at the same step every time: the printer is declaring that there is an error with the scanning process right at the beginning and spitting the page back out.  It didn't seem to matter which chart, either, which was odd (first I tried the 729 patch chart on 13x19 paper, then when that failed, the 343 patch chart on both 13x19 and 8.5x11, and finally tried the APS HP 1.5 chart on 13x19....same results every time.  I did try advancing the paper so that the chart was right under the rollers as you suggested in your tutorial, so I'm a bit lost on why I was struggling to make this work today.

I should note that I did some further experimentation today: I've been using the Adobe Color Printer Utility but I also tried to print within Lightroom, switching to the printer's color management and then turning the color matching off in the printer dialog.   I suspect that the colors from the Adobe program are likely better but I thought it was worth a try just to have more control over margins.  I also played with different output sizes for the actual charts.

When you use cut sheets, do you ask the Color Center to make, say, 13x19" charts or do you tell it 12x18" or some other dimension to account for margins?  I imagine you don't go borderless since print drivers enlarge the image to make that happen, and the Z3200 doesn't seem to take kindly to changes in chart size.

All that being said, I really did appreciate the trick about feeding sheets in through the roll slot. In my years of owning this printer I've never tried that and they feed in much more nicely than in the sheet feeder!


Addendum (added 6:25pm EST):
I take back one part: the HP RGB 1.5 chart (one of the defaults in the HP APS) profile finally profiled....some dummy forgot to trim the page where the little cut lines were printed.  If you tell me that I should have done that for the others, I may need a beer and try again tomorrow!  (And I know the 1.5 chart only has 288 patches, but I wanted proof of concept before moving on to a larger chart)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 06:27:58 pm by dkennedy2016 »
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Damir

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2016, 07:58:56 am »

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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2016, 08:05:00 am »

When you use cut sheets, do you ask the Color Center to make, say, 13x19" charts or do you tell it 12x18" or some other dimension to account for margins?  I imagine you don't go borderless since print drivers enlarge the image to make that happen, and the Z3200 doesn't seem to take kindly to changes in chart size.

It really doesn't. The trick is to keep it simple: If you are going to pint on a 13x19" sheet you must tell 13x19" to the Color Center. It will create a 13x19" file (at 300ppi) with enough blank borders. When you print you should keep that size, prevent the software from "shrink to fit". As I usually use the Canon Print Plugin to print the target the job is easy, I just lay the 13x19" on a 13x19" paper and tell it to print as it is. The minimum margin of the printer will not be a problem as the file has enough blank margins to accommodate it. If your software always "shrink to fit", the only option is to crop the equivalent minimum margins of your printer from the file before printing, so it will fit exactly inside the printable area.

Quote
Addendum (added 6:25pm EST):
I take back one part: the HP RGB 1.5 chart (one of the defaults in the HP APS) profile finally profiled....some dummy forgot to trim the page where the little cut lines were printed.  If you tell me that I should have done that for the others, I may need a beer and try again tomorrow!  (And I know the 1.5 chart only has 288 patches, but I wanted proof of concept before moving on to a larger chart)

Cut lines at the end are not a problem, but at the beginning or at the sides may be. The best is to don't print cut lines at all when printing targets. Use the whole page or the whole roll width.

When the reading stops at the beginning it means the printer could not properly detect the chart, it may be because of size problem, skew , excessive leading margin or even a unwanted cut line interfering on the reading.

Keep us posted about your attempts.
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dkennedy2016

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2016, 02:40:24 pm »

OK

here is the article I talked about:

https://luminous-landscape.com/making-profiles-with-the-hp-z3100-2/

You can also read this one:

https://luminous-landscape.com/hp-z3100-printer-review/

Hope this helps.

Hi Damir, thanks for those--I actually remember those somewhat fondly as the reasons I bought my z3200 in 2010.  I do miss Michael's writing style and humor.  "Since we haven't spent any money in the last few paragraphs..."

And I certainly think APS works well as long as I'm just printing and profiling all on the z3200.  It's when it comes to measuring other printers that I think it falls short, partly because 13" printers can't usually handle the large target sizes that APS exports to .tif.  Which brings me back to why I bought APS in the first place: color center does allow for the physical dimensions of the targets it exports to be user-determined.

Once upon a time, I convinced myself that the Color Center's color measurements could be turned into profiles using APS.  I still think it would be great if they could be, and don't quite understand why the two pieces of software weren't designed to talk to one another, and it's one of the things that continues to make me question whether APS is necessarily "worth it" for people (hence my original comments on this thread, if poorly articulated given details that simply weren't coming to mind when I commented...it doesn't help that I've lost my notes on what wasn't working from the last time I tried to profile a 13" printer with the z3200)


It really doesn't. The trick is to keep it simple: If you are going to pint on a 13x19" sheet you must tell 13x19" to the Color Center. It will create a 13x19" file (at 300ppi) with enough blank borders. When you print you should keep that size, prevent the software from "shrink to fit". As I usually use the Canon Print Plugin to print the target the job is easy, I just lay the 13x19" on a 13x19" paper and tell it to print as it is. The minimum margin of the printer will not be a problem as the file has enough blank margins to accommodate it. If your software always "shrink to fit", the only option is to crop the equivalent minimum margins of your printer from the file before printing, so it will fit exactly inside the printable area.

Cut lines at the end are not a problem, but at the beginning or at the sides may be. The best is to don't print cut lines at all when printing targets. Use the whole page or the whole roll width.

When the reading stops at the beginning it means the printer could not properly detect the chart, it may be because of size problem, skew , excessive leading margin or even a unwanted cut line interfering on the reading.

Keep us posted about your attempts.

Geraldo, I appreciate your continued willingness to help me out with this...the Canon is newer to me (I'm more accustomed to HP and Epson printer options) so I had not considered seriously the "Print Studio Pro" plugin.  I believe I am following along with what you're talking about by draggint the red borders of the 13x19" image to the edge of the 13x19" page.  Definitely not something that Canon allows one to do in the normal print driver.  Question: how are you shutting off color management?  Is that the "PRO Mode" that I selected?  I've attached a screen shot of the settings I was using:



I tried it, and (blissfully) the z3200 actually read it a few moments ago.  I'm about to install Argyll on this computer and try to make a profile of the results.  (And I expect it to be a weak profile given that I used the 343 patch chart, but again, I want proof of concept before I go down the rabbit hole of multiple pages of charts just find out its all for nothing--been there, done that.)  Also, if you tell me that there's some other option to cut off color management, then all I've done is wasted one page.  Either way, I'm further than yesterday.

Which does lead me back to answering my own question from yesterday: I believe that I actually should have trimmed those other pages to the dotted line.   In other words, I think I could do something nutty like telling Color Center to make 9x12" charts, print them on 13x19" paper, and as long as they were cut down it would probably be fine.  The additional white space really seems to throw something off.
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2016, 04:11:12 pm »

Question: how are you shutting off color management?  Is that the "PRO Mode" that I selected?

Sorry, I meant Canon IPF print Plugin the one that comes with the IPF8400 printer. I don't use the Print Studio Pro plugin and never considered it also. For the Pro1000 I print the targets from Qimage Ultimate.
I strongly believe it is possible to do it using the Adobe Color Printer Utility and the printer driver, at least for the Canon printers I own.
Will try it tomorrow and post the results.
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dkennedy2016

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2016, 04:47:06 pm »

Sorry, I meant Canon IPF print Plugin the one that comes with the IPF8400 printer. I don't use the Print Studio Pro plugin and never considered it also. For the Pro1000 I print the targets from Qimage Ultimate.
I strongly believe it is possible to do it using the Adobe Color Printer Utility and the printer driver, at least for the Canon printers I own.
Will try it tomorrow and post the results.

As a general followup, I took the measurement data into Argyll, followed your command prompt suggestions, and made the first successful profile I've ever had come out of Argyll.  Thank you!

I did not appreciate it displaying a DeltaE value for the profile--I copied and pasted the results into a text file just so I could search for it.  How were you able to find a dE report for your profiles made with this method?

As for the Canon plugin, I am a little suspicious that it was not truly color-unmanaged via that "Pro-Mode," so I may take another crack at the Adobe utility or download a trial of Qimage.  I've printed from Lightroom for years but have heard good things about Qimage.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2016, 04:55:18 pm »

Sorry, I meant Canon IPF print Plugin the one that comes with the IPF8400 printer. I don't use the Print Studio Pro plugin and never considered it also. For the Pro1000 I print the targets from Qimage Ultimate.
I strongly believe it is possible to do it using the Adobe Color Printer Utility and the printer driver, at least for the Canon printers I own.
Will try it tomorrow and post the results.

I print profiling patch charts on my 9800 using Photoshop. Attach the ROMM profile, then print selecting Rel. Col. w/o BPC using the ROMM profile (cancel the warning popup). Does the same thing as APU but it's easy to position multiple charts for the I1IO across roll paper. This workaround to print w/o color management has always worked for me on Windows computers from XP to Win 10. Don't know if it works on IOS.
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dkennedy2016

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2016, 05:41:03 pm »

I print profiling patch charts on my 9800 using Photoshop. Attach the ROMM profile, then print selecting Rel. Col. w/o BPC using the ROMM profile (cancel the warning popup). Does the same thing as APU but it's easy to position multiple charts for the I1IO across roll paper. This workaround to print w/o color management has always worked for me on Windows computers from XP to Win 10. Don't know if it works on IOS.

Hi Doug, that is interesting.  Until today I haven't heard of ROMM.  Let me see if I understand you correctly: it is an ICC profile designed to achieve the effect of "no color management" in programs like Photoshop that have eliminated the option of printing without a profile?  If that's correct, that sounds a lot more convenient than the Adobe utility!  Where does one get it?
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Doug Gray

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2016, 06:21:24 pm »

Hi Doug, that is interesting.  Until today I haven't heard of ROMM.  Let me see if I understand you correctly: it is an ICC profile designed to achieve the effect of "no color management" in programs like Photoshop that have eliminated the option of printing without a profile?  If that's correct, that sounds a lot more convenient than the Adobe utility!  Where does one get it?

It's really just ProPhoto RGB under it's original name but when you install it shows up in the list of selectable printer profiles in Photoshop. I would use ProPhoto RGB or any other RGB working space profile if it was available in the printer dialog but it's not. It can be had here:

http://www.color.org/chardata/rgb/rommrgb.xalter


Actually, the technique works with regular printer profiles too. You just have to first assign the printer profile to the chart image then select that same profile to print with. Since the printer's profile is in the same RGB space as the printer it is going to the RGB values are sent unchanged. Using the ROMM RGB profile just makes it easier for me to remember to use the same name when printing. I do make sure the edit menu color settings are set for Rel Col w/o BPC and use the same settings for printing otherwise there might be some risk that Photoshop could decide to roundtrip the colors. For instance to convert RGB in Perceptual to RGB in Relative. I have done some tests to see if Photoshop does that and it does not. But it could, and I don't want to risk it.


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dkennedy2016

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2016, 06:46:41 pm »

It's really just ProPhoto RGB under it's original name but when you install it shows up in the list of selectable printer profiles in Photoshop. I would use ProPhoto RGB or any other RGB working space profile if it was available in the printer dialog but it's not. It can be had here:

http://www.color.org/chardata/rgb/rommrgb.xalter


Actually, the technique works with regular printer profiles too. You just have to first assign the printer profile to the chart image then select that same profile to print with. Since the printer's profile is in the same RGB space as the printer it is going to the RGB values are sent unchanged. Using the ROMM RGB profile just makes it easier for me to remember to use the same name when printing. I do make sure the edit menu color settings are set for Rel Col w/o BPC and use the same settings for printing otherwise there might be some risk that Photoshop could decide to roundtrip the colors. For instance to convert RGB in Perceptual to RGB in Relative. I have done some tests to see if Photoshop does that and it does not. But it could, and I don't want to risk it.

That makes sense--trick it into outputting using the same profile that's embedded and in so doing change nothing.  Just one more point of interest: you mention both assigning and converting.  The chart has no profile and so it may essentially be a moot point, but are you converting to ROMM w/o BPC or are you opening the file leaving it without color management and then assigning ROMM?
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Doug Gray

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2016, 06:58:10 pm »

That makes sense--trick it into outputting using the same profile that's embedded and in so doing change nothing.  Just one more point of interest: you mention both assigning and converting.  The chart has no profile and so it may essentially be a moot point, but are you converting to ROMM w/o BPC or are you opening the file leaving it without color management and then assigning ROMM?

The patch chart is assigned ROMM. There are no options for intent or BPC when assigning. However, the printer dialog assumes conversions will occur. For instance from sRGB to Lab (internally) then to the printer device space using the selected intents and possibly BPC. So the printer always assumes a conversion. However, if the original image is in the same RGB space as the space you are requesting it be printed no conversions are done. It just goes straight to the printer.

In the event that Adobe decides, at some point in the future, to do a conversion from printer space to Lab then back to printer space, ROMM RGB would produce no change as it's a high precision matrix profile whereas printer profiles would, in Rel. Col., do an AtoB1 LUT conversion followed by an BtoA1 LUT conversion which introduces additional error of perhaps 1 to 2 dE since the LUTs have significant interpolation error.
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dkennedy2016

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Re: Wanted !! Q6695A HP Advanced Profiling Solution for Z3200PS
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2016, 07:42:20 pm »

The patch chart is assigned ROMM. There are no options for intent or BPC when assigning. However, the printer dialog assumes conversions will occur. For instance from sRGB to Lab (internally) then to the printer device space using the selected intents and possibly BPC. So the printer always assumes a conversion. However, if the original image is in the same RGB space as the space you are requesting it be printed no conversions are done. It just goes straight to the printer.

In the event that Adobe decides, at some point in the future, to do a conversion from printer space to Lab then back to printer space, ROMM RGB would produce no change as it's a high precision matrix profile whereas printer profiles would, in Rel. Col., do an AtoB1 LUT conversion followed by an BtoA1 LUT conversion which introduces additional error of perhaps 1 to 2 dE since the LUTs have significant interpolation error.

Thanks for that clarification.  And that seems a good reason to opt for something like ROMM as opposed to an existing printer profile.

I just printed the chart from earlier, but outputted to 11x17 .tif files and printed on A3+ (and just confirmed that the z3200 is much happier with these charts when trimmed to the dotted lines...wish I'd realized that a long time ago!).  The one on the left was printed with the Adobe Utility, and the one on the right was printed in Photoshop using the ROMM trick that you told me about.  I think I've identified one of the problems I'm having with with the Adobe Utility and this Canon printer: even though I used the same driver settings in both the Adobe Utility and the Photoshop print dialog (I opted not to use the Canon Plugin that I took a screen grab of earlier) the sizes are different! The printed area should be 11x17" on both...not sure what that's about, but I'm glad to have the Photoshop alternative since that worked!



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