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Author Topic: confusing terminology - variants  (Read 6797 times)

Endeavour

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confusing terminology - variants
« on: September 25, 2016, 08:36:07 am »

Am I alone in being confused by the term 'variants' in capture one?

It seems to me that its a word used contrary to it's proper definition in the English language

1) Say I open up Image01 in C1. That's now a variant right?
2) Then I open up Image02 in C1, that's another variant. So I now have 2 variants - is this correct?

3) Yet I can duplicate Image01 in C1 (I know the file isnt physically duplicated) and make adjustments to it and this becomes a new variant.

this is where I fall down. the first two examples are not variants in the true sense of the word as they are not variations of the same source. They are two separate entities.
The 'New Variant' in example #3 can only be classed as a variant because it is a variation based on the same source (Image01)


So how can 2 unique images be classed as 2 variants. What are they variants of?

To my befuddled mind, its just confusing.
Shouldn't Image01 and Image02 be classed as 'source'  or 'original' when imported. And any clones, or duplicates with adjustments are classed as variants?



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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2016, 09:57:26 am »

Am I alone in being confused by the term 'variants' in capture one?

It seems to me that its a word used contrary to it's proper definition in the English language

1) Say I open up Image01 in C1. That's now a variant right?

Hi,

More exact would be to call it the "Selected Primary Variant", because it is selected, and parameter changes will be applied to this file only (unless the Edit all selected variants is toggled on). This allows to differentiate between multiple variants of the same image if one makes duplicates or clones of the same image file (without really making a duplicate or the original Raw file, but rather only of the parameter settings). Variants of the same Raw image can be promoted or demoted e.g. to denote their importance or preference.

Quote
2) Then I open up Image02 in C1, that's another variant. So I now have 2 variants - is this correct?

Another variant, yes, although it obviously is a different image and not so much a variant of Image01. Technically it could be, if both images involve the same subject but with e.g. only different exposure settings.

Quote
3) Yet I can duplicate Image01 in C1 (I know the file isnt physically duplicated) and make adjustments to it and this becomes a new variant.

This is really the creation of a real variant of the same Raw file (a copy without the primary selected variant's parameters, or a clone of all settings). As you say, not a copy of the Raw itself, but of the default or the adjusted settings for the Raw file.

Quote
this is where I fall down. the first two examples are not variants in the true sense of the word as they are not variations of the same source. They are two separate entities.

Correct, although in the sense that I mentioned before, the two images (distinct Raw files) could be marginally different variations of the same subject.

Quote
To my befuddled mind, its just confusing.
Shouldn't Image01 and Image02 be classed as 'source'  or 'original' when imported. And any clones, or duplicates with adjustments are classed as variants?

I agree, although it would still be possible to select different variants of different Raw files instead of the 'originals' and apply parameter changes to all of them or only the Primary Selected one of them (determined by the toggle setting, see attached).

Cheers,
Bart
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N80

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 03:04:36 pm »

I too find this confusing. Somehow the terminology in LR and Aperture seemed more clear and intuitive to me.
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George

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Endeavour

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2016, 02:58:05 pm »

..
Another variant, yes, although it obviously is a different image and not so much a variant of Image01. Technically it could be, if both images involve the same subject but with e.g. only different exposure settings.



if I take two photos of the same subject, I would never class them as variants of the same source, regardless of the only difference being exposure settings

In C1, I can import an image of my left foot and an image of a sweeping landscape, and according to C1 I now have 2 variants.

it's nonsense
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Henk Peter

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2016, 03:29:46 pm »

Am I alone in being confused by the term 'variants' in capture one?

What's in a name? I have no problem with the terminology, you will get used to it once you start working with the tool and enjoy the super high quality of the rendered images.
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N80

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2016, 05:29:29 pm »

if I take two photos of the same subject, I would never class them as variants of the same source, regardless of the only difference being exposure settings

In C1, I can import an image of my left foot and an image of a sweeping landscape, and according to C1 I now have 2 variants.

it's nonsense

Agreed. Its more than just an atypical word or a name I'm not used to, it is a poor implementation  of that word. Fortunately it is not something I come up against much in my work flow so it does not bother me.
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George

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gdh

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2016, 01:35:06 am »

My god, you have way too much time on your hands!

Endeavour

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2016, 09:35:33 am »

My god, you have way too much time on your hands!

and you need better time management, if you dont have the capacity to take a step back and question things in life
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myotis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2016, 08:44:57 am »

Aren't they all variants because they are all (including the first one you see) an interpretation of the "same" raw file.

The first one you see just happens to be the Capture one default variant, out of the infinite number of possible variants.

Cheers,

Graham



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KimALdis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2016, 12:10:01 pm »

Usually the terminology reflects the underlying data structure and I'd be surprised if the terminology is wrong. Checking through the Scripting dictionary, which usually gives a fair indication of a programme's data structure, it shows an Image object and a Variant object. Variants are children of Images, each Image having one or more Variants. The Image is the actual RAW file. The RAW file is never changed. It therefore makes sense that there is some other thing that is a converted and edited version of the RAW image. And probably one default variant is created for each Image either when it's imported or, to save space, when first edited.

So, you said:

Quote
1) Say I open up Image01 in C1. That's now a variant right?
2) Then I open up Image02 in C1, that's another variant. So I now have 2 variants - is this correct?
3) Yet I can duplicate Image01 in C1 (I know the file isnt physically duplicated) and make adjustments to it and this becomes a new variant.

Which isn't quite right. You don't actually open up either image; you open up the first, default variant of each image. So:

1) You edit the default variant of Image01
2) Then you edit the default variant of Image02.
3) You duplicate the default variant of Imagle01.

Does that make more sense?
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myotis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2016, 02:07:19 pm »

The Image is the actual RAW file. The RAW file is never changed. It therefore makes sense that there is some other thing that is a converted and edited version of the RAW image. And probably one default variant is created for each Image either when it's imported or, to save space, when first edited.

Isn't that what I just said, but with fewer words :-)

Cheers,

Graham
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KimALdis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2016, 02:09:36 pm »

I felt you needed clarifying.
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myotis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 02:15:43 pm »

I felt you needed clarifying.

Fair enough.

Cheers,

Graham
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KimALdis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2016, 02:18:22 pm »

No offence intended, I should add. :-)
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myotis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2016, 02:23:52 pm »

No offence intended, I should add. :-)

That's OK, I did start off with a longer post, and cut it back, obviously by too much.

Cheers,

Graham
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af_ahoy

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2016, 03:14:44 pm »

I agree with KimALdis and myotis here, the terminology makes sense, in that C1 doesn't really have 'originals' and 'copies', just one or more versions (i.e. variants) of the editing parameters applied to the raw file (or even JPEG). One of those is the 'primary' but this is a little arbitrary in that any of the variants of an image can be made the primary; it's not in any way canonical.

Really what you're dealing with in C1 is an abstraction layer on top the actual image files.
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N80

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2016, 08:14:55 pm »

As a physician I understand the proper use of technical terminology. But technically precise terminology, even though correct, is not always the most useful way to communicate concepts particularly when you are communicating with a mixed audience (patient, nurse, family member or even another physician outside of your specialty.)

So we can talk about abstraction layers, potential images, "actual image files" etc. but even amongst technically minded photographers this is not always going to be an intuitive or useful way of understanding how their images are managed.

Just the length of this thread is an indication that the "variant" terminology is not intuitive even if it is technically precise.
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George

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myotis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2016, 06:34:36 am »

Just the length of this thread is an indication that the "variant" terminology is not intuitive even if it is technically precise.

I fear this could run and run :-)

Until this thread, it had never given it any thought, so I guess it was intuitive enough for me, but I have made heavy use of variants from first starting to use C1.

As an aside as I teach statistics to biology undergraduates and postgraduates, I am all too aware of trying to balance technical correctness with "conceptual understanding".

Cheers,

Graham

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2016, 08:34:11 am »

I fear this could run and run :-)

Until this thread, it had never given it any thought, so I guess it was intuitive enough for me, but I have made heavy use of variants from first starting to use C1.

If we take the view of the Raw file being the 'original', then it makes perfect sense to call the conversion(s) variants. I also didn't give it much thought because it was clear enough how to deal with things.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 11:21:57 am by BartvanderWolf »
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KimALdis

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Re: confusing terminology - variants
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2016, 10:26:24 am »

Quote
But technically precise terminology, even though correct, is not always the most useful way to communicate concepts

I disagree. Correct terminology describes what is actually going on. To describe it any other way is, by definition, incorrect. If the correct terminology is unclear the best way to clarify it is to get a clearer understanding of the underlying process.

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