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Author Topic: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)  (Read 8962 times)

AOK

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HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« on: September 17, 2016, 04:28:17 pm »

Hi guys.

I just registered to the LuLa membership under my real name. Awesome place. Lot to learn.

I am a photographer and I have a question.

I have bought the complete Spyder5Studio+ SpyderLENSCAL + SpyderCHECKR 24.

I already have the HP z24x, which according to overclockers.ru has:

in NATIVE:
sRGB – 99%;
AdobeRGB – 93.9%

And  in CUSTOM:
sRGB Mode – 93.5% and 94.7% after calibration
AdobeRGB Mode – 93%

My second monitor is the HP z24i, which has:

sRGB – 89.1%
AdobeRGB – 64.8%

I have a third monitor FullHD again, but it's non-professional with not that good colours and I use it for Photoshop interfaces and windows and regular web readings.

All three are connected to my PALIT GTX970 and currently are calibrated as follows:

Left: 110 cd/m2 | AdobeRGB
Middle: 160 cd/m2 | sRGB
Right: 140 cd/m2 | sRGB

They were calibrated so far from a Spyder 3 Pro and I am going to re calibrate them now again.

The reason is because I mainly make photography for web (most users have their monitors, brightness/luminance boost to the max), but I have to begin to print so I have began creating printing profiles from a local print house and ergo my left monitor is currently on AdobeRGB and so low light.

However my left monitor is kind of blueish perhaps in comparison to the middle one.

My workflow is RAW -> DNG for Lightroom or PSD in Photoshop (depends if it's a composite) -> Finished image for displays & a print version.

What to do? My questions are:

1/ Should I configure PS for ProPhoto or leave it on AdobeRGB?
2/ Should I configure LR for ProPhoto or AdobeRGB or leave it on sRGB?

3/ In correlation to the above programs colour spaces and considering that I am soft-proving with custom made print profiles (printer +paper) in what colour spaces configuration and how to deal with the differences if I leave it to AdobeRGB?

Thank you in advance.
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schertz

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2016, 04:56:27 pm »


What to do? My questions are:

1/ Should I configure PS for ProPhoto or leave it on AdobeRGB?
2/ Should I configure LR for ProPhoto or AdobeRGB or leave it on sRGB?

3/ In correlation to the above programs colour spaces and considering that I am soft-proving with custom made print profiles (printer +paper) in what colour spaces configuration and how to deal with the differences if I leave it to AdobeRGB?

Thank you in advance.

1) In the long ago past I had PS set for aRGB when I was mostly putting images on the web, or sending images out to consumer level labs (many of which ask for sRGB anyways). Since I started printing myself on an inkjet printer, I've switched to using ProphotoRGB in Photoshop (make sure you're working in 16-bit though). If you want to be able to print to the limits of your printers gamut, Prophoto is recommended.
2) You can't change the colourspace of LR, it's similar to prophoto (with a different gamma). Make sure you setup "Edit in Photoshop" render 16-bit prophoto images when sending files to photoshop
3) The soft-proof will show you how out-of-gamut colours will be remapped for the final destination (printer or otherwise). You can change the rendering intent if soft proofing for print to see which one looks better to you. Ideally, what you see on screen should closely match what comes out of the printer.

Others may have some strong opinions about the quality of Spyder Calibration vs. XRite...

MS
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AOK

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2016, 05:27:55 pm »

Hi.

thank you for your swift response. I have a minor question regarding:
... You can change the rendering intent if soft proofing for print to see which one looks better to you....
My main problem is related to not being sure what color spaces to ue on the two HP monitors and how to implement that when editing AND soft proofing.

What is "rendering intent"?

Thank you in advance :-)
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Lundberg02

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2016, 03:36:49 am »

You need to google rendering intent and read some of the thousands of hits. You have no idea what you are doing.
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AOK

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2016, 09:56:45 am »

You need to google rendering intent and read some of the thousands of hits. You have no idea what you are doing.

And you have no idea what I am asking.

I am quite aware of the Relative & Perceptual intents, which are essential for prints or any final image output.

I am asking about setting the feedback from my monitors during digital editing. A concrete problem, with well described environment and tools.

If my z24x is on AdobeRGB it is blueish compared to the other that is sRGB. If I put both on sRGB I loose important feedback during editing due to narrower color space. I can stay with the one on aRGB but that would make things for me complicated.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong? I am perplexed. Need some fresh ideas and perspectives. Or maybe I am missing a specific option somewhere?

I read a lot. I don't need patronizing answers that sound more like an insult then a helpful answer from a forum peer.

If you, mr. Lundberg02, feel that knowledgeable I would be more than glad to be explained in concrete sentences and ideas instead of lazy sending me to ask uncle Google. Otherwise I would consider that as a troll post wasting my time.

I need people with experience in the field. Not know-it-all-in-theory nerds or trolls.

However this:

Virtually all displays are rendered colorimetrically to the degree feasible and have identical tranforms for Perceptual and Relative Intent. That is, they do not render Perceptual Intent differently from Relative Intent. Still, they are not perfect and they can be considered to render Perceptually near the black point. The biggest limitation with rendering accurately is the monitor's dynamic range. Worse still, is glare from ambient light makes the black point uncertain and, unless the working ambient is quite dark, well above the monitor's native black point. This area is largely ignored in V2 profiles but V4 profiles provide mechanisms to account for black point dynamic range limits. However, V2 profiles remain the most widely used.

http://www.color.org/icc_white_paper_6_v2_and_v4_display_profile_differences.pdf
Monitors clip because they are driven by RGB values and, in 8 bit resolution, clipping occurs when a requested color is transformed to the monitor's colorspace resulting in either negative numbers or numbers exceeding 255 in one or more of the RGB channels. ICC protocols truncate negative values to 0 and those above 255 to 255.

Provides more info than your request for a source ;-)

Unfortunately its knowledge doesn't seem to solve my problem or answer my question :-(
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 10:14:10 am by AOK »
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Pictus

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2016, 10:30:18 am »

We do not trust Spyders http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=103094.0
But you may get better results by using Argyll+dispcalGUI

Panels with different technology may never match https://youtu.be/LI7a0PdkPgs
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Doug Gray

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2016, 02:42:51 pm »

Panels with different technology may never match https://youtu.be/LI7a0PdkPgs

Indeed. Also, they may be set up to match person A and not match person B, or C due to individual variations in cone responses. This isn't something that can be solved by better, or even perfect instruments. That video explains this perhaps better than any I've ever seen, thanks for posting it as I hadn't run across it before.

The main problem, matching of different technology white points (defined as xy from the CIE 1931, 2 degree field) is not resolved by better instruments. Individual variation can, and often does, exceed instrument accuracy. They outline an approach of using a reference monitor's white and adjusting the secondary monitor to the same perceived white. That adjusted monitor's white point is then measured and it is then profiled to that white point. This requires profiling software that lets you enter the desired white point xy values and, or course, using the same colorimeter or spectroradiometer for profiling that was used to read the matching white point.

This exact process what I used when I augmented my CG301, which became my secondary monitor after acquiring a CG318 and it has worked out well.  One is LED the other CFL and they have very different spectral distributions.

Here's a good RIT paper on display metameric failures as well as individual CMF variability.
https://cias.rit.edu/media/uploads/gallery-projects/576/documents/21/donato_thesis_refwhite.pdf
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 03:30:04 pm by Doug Gray »
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Doug Gray

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2016, 02:49:14 pm »

If my z24x is on AdobeRGB it is blueish compared to the other that is sRGB. If I put both on sRGB I loose important feedback during editing due to narrower color space. I can stay with the one on aRGB but that would make things for me complicated.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong? I am perplexed. Need some fresh ideas and perspectives. Or maybe I am missing a specific option somewhere?

Adobe RGB, sRGB, and ProPhoto RGB should have exactly the same "white."  They have different gamuts but not different "whites." At least they don't as a consequence of the selected colorspace. However, they may well differ on different monitors due to different display lighting technologies, as Pictus pointed out. A link he provided discusses why this is and provides a process to match the perceived whites on different monitors.
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AOK

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2016, 07:25:16 pm »

Thank you both! All that info is awesome.

And actually already in the beginning of the white paper#6 it was mentioned that "v4 display profiles assume the viewer is fully adapted to the display white point."

Now I have to find which one from my perspective is wrong. When I have more info I will write here back. It is a weird situation indeed.

As for the Spyder: isn't the third digit after the coma actually a negligible difference even most probably indistinguishable?

I will come back with test and results.

Another question:

I made a screenshot of my desktop with a File Explorer (white background) opened between the two monitors. Now windows is told the left one is AdobeRGB and the right (actually the middle) is sRGB.

No difference.

Then made 2 photos with my iPhone of the same place + current forum thread response opened browser you can see the difference. Please note that both lay on the same plane.

Now according to my understanding Windows "knows" and internaly the colors are the same. However the monitor interpretation back to analogue is the failure?

Am I correct?

Thank you in advance.
EDIT: The green line on the screenshot had to be on the left side of the iTunes icon.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 07:29:06 pm by AOK »
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Pictus

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2016, 01:56:48 pm »

Indeed. Also, they may be set up to match person A and not match person B, or C due to individual variations in cone responses. This isn't something that can be solved by better, or even perfect instruments. That video explains this perhaps better than any I've ever seen, thanks for posting it as I hadn't run across it before.

You are welcome, the problem is that the HP z24x uses a GB-r LED panel and the Spyder3 can not calibrate.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/search.php?query=hp&select=model
http://www.panelook.com/LM240WU9-SLA1_LG%20Display_24.0_LCM_overview_18768.html


For anyone interested, The Evolution of LED Back lights
https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-evolution-of-led-backlights/

Quote
The main problem, matching of different technology white points (defined as xy from the CIE 1931, 2 degree field) is not resolved by better instruments. Individual variation can, and often does, exceed instrument accuracy. They outline an approach of using a reference monitor's white and adjusting the secondary monitor to the same perceived white. That adjusted monitor's white point is then measured and it is then profiled to that white point. This requires profiling software that lets you enter the desired white point xy values and, or course, using the same colorimeter or spectroradiometer for profiling that was used to read the matching white point.

Argyll+dispCAL can set the xy values, Argyll+dispCAL combo is the salvation for people who do not have Eizo/NEC monitors... :)

Quote
This exact process what I used when I augmented my CG301, which became my secondary monitor after acquiring a CG318 and it has worked out well.  One is LED the other CFL and they have very different spectral distributions.

Here's a good RIT paper on display metameric failures as well as individual CMF variability.
https://cias.rit.edu/media/uploads/gallery-projects/576/documents/21/donato_thesis_refwhite.pdf

Very interesting paper, thanks!
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Pictus

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 02:03:33 pm »

AOK,
Glad to help, but profile V4 will only make things worst...
The safest monitor profile is V2 Matrix, V4 and LUT may create problems for
non 100% perfect color managed applications.

First, you need a calibration device capable of doing the job,  do yourself a favor
and buy a X-rite i1Display Pro. The Spyder3 can not *PROPER* calibrate the HP z24x.


Second, only a 100% perfect color managed application can display the proper colors...
This means that Photoshop can, but Windows default software/applications are not
100% and most are 0%, as an example Windows 8 Photo Viewer is color managed, but not
compatible with V4 profiles, Windows 10 Metro Photo Viewer is 0%
http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/14312-windows-photo-viewer-restore-windows-10-a.html
Windows desktop and File Explorer are 0%  color managed...

No internet browser is perfect and most are not even color managed at all...
Seems like now in 2016 the browsers are better...
http://www.color-management-guide.com/web-browser-color-management.html


Lots of great stuff at http://www.digitaldog.net/
Do not miss the videos:
#1- http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov
#2- http://digitaldog.net/files/WideGamutPrintVideo.mov
#3- http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4
The complete thing http://www.trainsimple.com/CourseDetailUser.aspx?id=119
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 07:37:12 pm by Pictus »
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AOK

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2016, 09:46:43 am »

Will check all that info. Currently tested with the default SPYDER5ELITE+ software (I was primarily calibrated with Spyder 3, but I have 5Elite). It failed me.


Additionaly I thought that the best way is to check in Photoshop since I am most concerned ONLY with my PRO software. E.g. Photoshop, Lightroom etc. Ergo I tested with a new total WHITE document in PS. One could see the difference.

Now will begin testing the Spyder 5 sensor in combination with the open source software. So far I know that SPYDER 5 fails with the dark tones. Currently I want to try to equalize the white.

Digitaldog, I've watched most of them and will read most of the articles... Tremendous info there. Will check the video course. ;-)
Thank you for writing here.

Pictus, Doug Gray thank you for all your support. Now I think I have some info to assimilate and to make some tests. :-))))
Will come back with feedback.
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AOK

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2016, 04:16:55 am »

Just to let you know. It didn't worked very well. With the Argyll+dispCAL combo + Spyder5 here is what I achieved.

Note: This is a new document with white background in Adobe Photoshop that is in ProPhoto color space. Nevermind the view angle on the two side monitors, because the left is good on angles. The right - don't really care.

SPYDER5's weak spot for sure is the dark colors on which it spent more time. 90 min. on each monitor 2 b more precise. :-(((

First, you need a calibration device capable of doing the job,  do yourself a favor
and buy a X-rite i1Display Pro. The Spyder3 can not *PROPER* calibrate the HP z24x.
Is the ColorMunki Display an option? I would use it with the Argyll+dispCAL combo I guess. AFAIK there's no difference in their ability to evaluate color.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 04:49:54 pm by AOK »
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Pictus

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2016, 11:08:56 am »

Does the Spyder5 had a MODE for GB-r LED ? I guess not, so it can not calibrate the HP Z24x.
The ColorMunki Display can do the job, but it is not fast like the i1Display Pro and it is locked
to use only the X-rite Software(more limited version than the i1Display), but can use Argyll+disPCAL.
Uninstall DataColor software or make sure there is no LUT loader active, does not need to install
X-rite software, in dispCAL you need to load this correction matrix.
Set the monitor Color Preset to User and tweak the RGB controls to achieve the desired
White Point with the smaller delta as possible.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:17:44 pm by Pictus »
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GWGill

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2016, 08:27:33 pm »

Does the Spyder5 had a MODE for GB-r LED ?
If you use ArgyllCMS, you can use any .ccss file for Spyder 4 or 5 display type calibration, which is what the RG_Phosphor_Family_25Jul12.zip file you pointed to contains.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 10:19:21 pm by GWGill »
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Pictus

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2016, 12:36:52 am »

That is very interesting, thank you for posting!
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AOK

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Re: HP Z24x Dreamcolor (Adobe RGB) & z24i (sRGB)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 07:06:45 pm »

If you use ArgyllCMS, you can use any .ccss file for Spyder 5 display type calibration, which is what the RG_Phosphor_Family_25Jul12.zip file you pointed to contains.
OOps! I forgot that.

I will come back to u when re-calibrate using this file. Otherwise I will buy the colormunky or the 1pro after I have tested it. Kind of not filling OK already for my bad decision with the SPYDER5. :-(
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