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Author Topic: Soft Proofing  (Read 8609 times)

George Barr

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Soft Proofing
« on: June 26, 2006, 06:51:00 pm »

Michael: I seem to be missing some important information about proofing and perhaps you are the person to straighten me out.

A printer profile looks at how the printer prints colour vs. what the computer is saying and basically provides a map of adjustments for the printing process so that colours are interpreted correctly. eg. if you have a red block in a photoshop file it should print red but doesn't so the profile tells the printer what adjustments to make so it does print red.

Soft proofing is done after you have already created and used a printing profile and is basically a way to show the limitations of the printing process - ie. no matter how much intepretation there is, the file is always going to be more red than a given printer can print and the proof lets you see just how bad it's going to be. Of course there is no way to increase the redness of the file to compensate, but you could for example increase the saturation of the reds which haven't reached max. saturation to help the appearance.

So, my question is: how do you get from a printer profile which has to do with changing the printing colours to soft proofing which deals with the limitations of max. saturation and dynamic range of the print. How is it that a single file (the printer profile) can do both jobs - when they are not the same job?

Is it that the printer profile includes both tables on translation of colours and on limitations on colours? That's the only way I can see this working.
Thanks,
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michael

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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 07:20:17 pm »

Your monitor profile defines how your screen will display colours.

Your printer profile defines how your printer will print colours.

By passing the printer profile though your monitor profile (maybe not an accurate description, but essentially what's happening), you are able to translate from one to the other.

What you therefore see is a representation of what your printer will do, as described by the monitor's profile. The advantage is that you can now use Photoshop's tools to bring the colour gamut into line, something which just leaving it to the rendering intent removes from your control.

Michael
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jule

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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2006, 01:11:08 am »

I'd be interested to hear others experience with something I am finding a little time consuming and a bit tricky at times.

If I know which media I am going to print on, for example Crane Museo Silver Rag, would it be better for me to do all my editing using the 'proof colour'  rather than correcting the colour etc, in the final 'soft proofing." I am finding that Silver rag is a lot warmer in base tonings than the other papers I use, and I seem to be taking ages getting the image in 'soft proof' to come close to the original edited image before I soft proofed. It seems like a double editing proceedure to me.

So, in a nutshell, if one uses a particular paper predominantly , or chooses a specific paper for an image, would it not be pertinent to edit with the 'proof colours' from the beginning, rather than edit, and then try to correct in 'soft proof' the image to best match  the image first processed?

Julie
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dlashier

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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2006, 02:02:52 am »

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So, in a nutshell, if one uses a particular paper predominantly , or chooses a specific paper for an image, would it not be pertinent to edit with the 'proof colours' from the beginning, rather than edit, and then try to correct in 'soft proof' the image to best match  the image first processed?

Julie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69220\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The problem with this is, what if you later decide to print the image on a different paper, a different printer/inkset, or using a different technology? Having built your basic adjustments on the limitations of a particular printer/paper you will have to start from scratch. If you make your basic adjustments without softproof on, you can then either save a copy and work from there, or make the printer/paper specfic adjustments on additional layers that can be turned off and replaced with other adjustment layers for different output.

- DL
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Ray

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Soft Proofing
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2006, 05:00:04 am »

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The problem with this is, what if you later decide to print the image on a different paper, a different printer/inkset, or using a different technology? Having built your basic adjustments on the limitations of a particular printer/paper you will have to start from scratch. If you make your basic adjustments without softproof on, you can then either save a copy and work from there, or make the printer/paper specfic adjustments on additional layers that can be turned off and replaced with other adjustment layers for different output.

- DL
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Don,
Is this a real problem? The trend is to doing as much correction as possible in the RAW converter. That's your base image and the starting point. Why not go from that point with proof colors ticked? If you need to rework the image for another paper type, then go back to the RAW conversion, or, if a lot of time has elapsed, do a better conversion with an improved ACR or whatever.

However, there are always going to be exceptions. An image that needs a lot of adjustments, selections and layers etc. is going to be time consuming to rework. Not only that, you might never match your first rendition. born of a never to be repeated inspiration.

My own experience is, if I start off with an average image, reasonably correctly exposed etc, and I have no intentions of doing a lot of fancy manipulation, I might as well go straight into 'proof colors' for all editing after conversion.

If I fragment this process by getting the image 'correct' before ticking 'proof colors', then I find the whole editing process is more difficult.
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Bob Pearson

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Soft Proofing
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2006, 11:00:30 am »

Quote
Your monitor profile defines how your screen will display colours.

Your printer profile defines how your printer will print colours.

By passing the printer profile though your monitor profile (maybe not an accurate description, but essentially what's happening), you are able to translate from one to the other.

What you therefore see is a representation of what your printer will do, as described by the monitor's profile. The advantage is that you can now use Photoshop's tools to bring the colour gamut into line, something which just leaving it to the rendering intent removes from your control.

Michael
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Bob Pearson

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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 11:15:50 am »

Hi Michael, As we try and work in the largest possible gamut , Pro-Photo, and the colour space of modern multi-ink printers is larger than that of the monitor can we really expect to get a perfect soft proof.  Am I right in assuming tht the monitor space always uses perceptual rendering and hence will cramp the printer colour space in order to display the image.  As regards colour gamut warning does photoshop use the cmyk space (U.S web coated as default) and therfore do you change this to match the printer inks.
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Dennis

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Soft Proofing
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 12:25:51 pm »

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Am I right in assuming tht the monitor space always uses perceptual rendering
No, AFAIK it uses RelCol with gamut clipping. That's why the "Desaturate Monitor Colors" in the color preferences menu of Photoshop brings up details in the very saturated tones. If the colors were mapped, there wouldn't be such an effect, the image just would get less saturated.
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dlashier

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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 01:51:43 pm »

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Don,
Is this a real problem? The trend is to doing as much correction as possible in the RAW converter. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray,
Indeed, for many images my own practice is not even to go into Photoshop but to prep the image entirely in C1 then directly to IP for printing. Other images take a trip through PS either for trivial cloning (dust removal) or sometimes for HDR layering, local contrast masking, etc. With my typical images and the printer and profiles I use, very rarely do I find soft proofing useful, so for me, it's a moot point.

- DL
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 02:09:07 pm by dlashier »
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alainbriot

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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 02:12:14 pm »

It may be useful to add that when printing with ImagePrint (IP), the RIP provides its own print preview via what IP calls "Simulation Setup."  What's interesting is that I can't get Photoshop to display IP's Simulation Setup profiles in the Proof Color>Customize Proof Condition>Device to simulate dialog box.  I usually make minor tone corrections in IP, but it would be nice to be able to see the simulation in Photoshop too.
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dlashier

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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 02:36:53 pm »

> What's interesting is that I can't get Photoshop to display IP's Simulation Setup profiles

Alain, did you copy IP's profiles to the directory where PS looks for profiles? IP doesn't store them in the standard color directory (at least on a PC). OTOH I also recall that IP "customizes" the profiles a bit so maybe they're not compatible with PS?

- DL
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 02:38:13 pm by dlashier »
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digitaldog

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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2006, 04:52:55 pm »

Do all the heavy lifting (big corrections) in a well behaved RGB working space. IOW, make it look as you wish and save that as your archive. Then setup a custom soft proof for the output device. Edits at this point are based on this output alone (you may find there isn't anything additional you can do). But if so, do this on adjustment layers or on a copy as you're editing based on this single device. Note that there are things you simply can't recover based on the soft proof. For example, you're going from a much larger gamut working space to an output space. You see some colors desaturate as you soft proof. Nothing will really bring that back to this output device. The soft proof is your reality check.

The Simulate check boxes are useful in getting a more realistic soft proof but at a cost. First, they WILL make the simulation look uglier (as Schewe would say, reality sucks). But having the paper white and ink black in tow does provide a much better soft proof based on the dynamic range of the paper and ink. Do NOT view the simulation update for one. Or do the update and then walk away from the screen for a few seconds. When you come back, the image will not look quite as ugly. Watching the soft proof update, especially with respect to the mapping of white messes with your brain big time. Your eye has adapted to the white of the display and when it remaps to the more realistic white of the paper, it looks pretty ugly to watch. On that note, the simulate paper white means that you can't have any palettes or menu items being displayed because that white doesn't undergo the simulation. Your eye adapts to the whitest white it sees. So the white in the image is now dull (but accurate) surrounding by white from the palettes and so forth. Result is the image isn't being seen correctly. That means Unfortunately you need to work in full screen mode (hit the tab key once, the F key twice). Makes editing pretty hard! So use this for viewing only. This is the best way to show a client the image too. If you show them something like a saturated image in Adobe RGB (1998), that's what they will expect on print. Ain't going to happen.

Lastly, the accuracy of this soft proof is going to be based on not only the display profile but the output profile as well. Since output profiles have two tables (one affects the actual output, the other the soft proof), if the output profile isn't a really good one, it's possible that there's a disconnect in the two tables. You might get output that doesn't match the soft proof as you'd like. Of course you're all viewing the prints correctly under a 5000K light box of which the profile (most profiles) assume is the viewing conditions.
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alainbriot

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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2006, 05:57:05 pm »

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> What's interesting is that I can't get Photoshop to display IP's Simulation Setup profiles

Alain, did you copy IP's profiles to the directory where PS looks for profiles? IP doesn't store them in the standard color directory (at least on a PC). OTOH I also recall that IP "customizes" the profiles a bit so maybe they're not compatible with PS?

- DL
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I did ( I duplicated them and placed the copies in the Colorsync profiles folder), but they don't show up in Photoshop.  These profiles may be designed to show up only in ImagePrint (?)
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Alain Briot
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dlashier

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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2006, 06:08:51 pm »

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I did ( I duplicated them and placed the copies in the Colorsync profiles folder), but they don't show up in Photoshop.  These profiles may be designed to show up only in ImagePrint (?)
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Is it possibly a .icm versus .icc naming issue? I'm not in front of my IP computer right now but my recollection is that they do show up in PS but I could be wrong. I'll check when I get home.

- DL
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jule

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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2006, 08:52:47 pm »

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The problem with this is, what if you later decide to print the image on a different paper, a different printer/inkset, or using a different technology? Having built your basic adjustments on the limitations of a particular printer/paper you will have to start from scratch. If you make your basic adjustments without softproof on, you can then either save a copy and work from there, or make the printer/paper specfic adjustments on additional layers that can be turned off and replaced with other adjustment layers for different output.

- DL
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Thanks Don. The theory is sound behind having a 'master' copy upon which all other minor adjustments are made according to profile and paper, and it is a good idea I'm sure to save different layers with different adjustments for each type of media.

I don't understand why though I would have to start from scratch if say I edited an image for use with Silver Rag, then wanted to print it on a different media. Wouldn't I just designate the new profile and make the new changes on the 'silver rag' one to match the new media?

I suppose it would be better to keep coming back to the 'master' and make minor changes for each media, but I was just finding that I went to all this trouble to get the image looking how I wanted it to, then when I soft proofed, I had to go through a whole lot more adjustments. It seemed like a double editing proceedure especially since I was only intending to use my own printer and a particular paper. Without a crystal ball I could not guarantee that this will always be the case...so perhaps my short term needs and capabilities will determine whether I edit with proof settings or not.

Julie
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George Barr

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Soft Proofing
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 11:45:18 pm »

Bless you, bless you - of the many additions to this thread, finally someone has clarified the situation to me - thank you very much Andrew - sounds like I need to pick up your book. So, there are in fact two tables and you can get a good conversion table and a poor proofing table and now it all makes sense to me. That's why you can use a printing profile for soft proofing.

Further question - do things like eye1 do a good job on both?

Thanks,

George
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dlashier

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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2006, 02:46:17 am »

> These profiles may be designed to show up only in ImagePrint (?)

Alain, I just confirmed that IP profiles display and work fine for PS softproofing on my PC.

You might check this page on chromix as to why some profiles don't display on a Mac and how to fix them.

- DL
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digitaldog

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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2006, 09:14:58 am »

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Further question - do things like eye1 do a good job on both?
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Excellent product.
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ericaro

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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2006, 09:23:22 am »

My IP profiles have always softproofed on my PC as well.
               Louis Bouillon
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Ray

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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2006, 09:37:16 pm »

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Watching the soft proof update, especially with respect to the mapping of white messes with your brain big time. Your eye has adapted to the white of the display and when it remaps to the more realistic white of the paper, it looks pretty ugly to watch. On that note, the simulate paper white means that you can't have any palettes or menu items being displayed because that white doesn't undergo the simulation. Your eye adapts to the whitest white it sees. So the white in the image is now dull (but accurate) surrounding by white from the palettes and so forth. Result is the image isn't being seen correctly. That means Unfortunately you need to work in full screen mode (hit the tab key once, the F key twice). Makes editing pretty hard! So use this for viewing only.

This is why I prefer to go straight into editing with proof colors and 'simulate paper color'. I don't want to waste time getting an unrealistic image which I can't print. I mean, there's no way of using proof colors in Adobe Bridge, is there? If this is so, then for most situations one already has a reasonably well adjusted image at the conversion stage. No need to do further editing in PS and then tie oneself in knots trying to duplicate the effect with proof colors.

This is just a personal preference. I'm not trying to say your advice does not make sense. It's just that I don't want to be constantly reminded how deficient my printer/paper/ink/profile is.  

I'd rather take a reaonably 'okay' image and improve upon it with proof colors ticked than strive to achieve unrealistic goals.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 09:43:01 pm by Ray »
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