which pano stitching tool? Hugin, Autopano, PTGui, ... (non CC)

[alain]

Hi

I've seen some "older" comments on pano stitching tools, are they still up to date with the last version?

If I read those comments correctly :

Hugin: free, but high learning curve.

Autopano : good with a rather short learning curve.

PTGui : best possibility's, but higher learning curve than Autopano. 

Am I right?

Is the masking feature a must and useful?

I would stitch D810 16-bit tiff files with a moderate amount of files (3-15), mostly of landscapes or architecture.
I don't use lightroom or PS.

Alain

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I've seen some "older" comments on pano stitching tools, are they still up to date with the last version?

If I read those comments correctly :

Hugin: free, but high learning curve.

Autopano : good with a rather short learning curve.

PTGui : best possibility's, but higher learning curve than Autopano. 

Am I right?

Hi Alain,

Yes, mostly correct although a few comments can be added.

Hugin also offers a lot of automation, but to get the most of it one needs to invest in learning the specifics.
AutoPano (Giga)is fine when it achieves an automatic result, but when it doesn't then I find it troublesome to steer it in the right direction. I'm also confused as to how the Color Management is done (I have to check if the latest version has improved on that).
PTGUI is a solid workhorse that also offers a lot of automation, but also allows to manually intervene if things get screwed up. In addition, support is very good, and the GPU acceleration is very helpful. It often allows to do jobs at which the others fail. I find this to be the most productive of the stitchers. I can finish my panos in less time, and the quality is excellent.

Is the masking feature a must and useful?

Not a must, but very useful to prevent ghosts if the subjects have things like moving people/traffic/clouds/tree branches/waves&surf. As usual, you'll only miss it if you need it., but then it's a great functionality to have (especially if you don't use Photoshop for Alpha masking).

I would stitch D810 16-bit tiff files with a moderate amount of files (3-15), mostly of landscapes or architecture.
I don't use lightroom or PS.

That means you may benefit from a masking functionality in the stitcher, i.e. AutoPano Giga or PTGUI Pro are the Commercial versions to look at, Hugin has it anyway. All of the Stitchers mentioned should be able to produce good results with D810 files in those numbers, assuming your shooting technique (accurate 'No Parallax Point') is good.

Cheers,
Bart

[Bob_B]

I like hugin, but agree that its learning curve is steep. Have you considered Microsoft's Image Composite Editor? It's free and my brief trial runs with it have been encouraging.

[Paul2660]

I have used most of the ones mentioned.

Right now LR gets most of my single row stitching work love the workflow it offers.

Multiple row Kolor or Ptgui.

Paul C

[alain]

Hi Alain,

Yes, mostly correct although a few comments can be added.

Hugin also offers a lot of automation, but to get the most of it one needs to invest in learning the specifics.
AutoPano (Giga)is fine when it achieves an automatic result, but when it doesn't then I find it troublesome to steer it in the right direction. I'm also confused as to how the Color Management is done (I have to check if the latest version has improved on that).
PTGUI is a solid workhorse that also offers a lot of automation, but also allows to manually intervene if things get screwed up. In addition, support is very good, and the GPU acceleration is very helpful. It often allows to do jobs at which the others fail. I find this to be the most productive of the stitchers. I can finish my panos in less time, and the quality is excellent.

Not a must, but very useful to prevent ghosts if the subjects have things like moving people/traffic/clouds/tree branches/waves&surf. As usual, you'll only miss it if you need it., but then it's a great functionality to have (especially if you don't use Photoshop for Alpha masking).

That means you may benefit from a masking functionality in the stitcher, i.e. AutoPano Giga or PTGUI Pro are the Commercial versions to look at, Hugin has it anyway. All of the Stitchers mentioned should be able to produce good results with D810 files in those numbers, assuming your shooting technique (accurate 'No Parallax Point') is good.

Cheers,
Bart

Thanks Bart,

I'll check PTGUI pro out.

Shooting technique is careful hand hold for landscapes.  If I can take a tripod -without carrying it to long- I use a tripod with a ballhead.  No pano heads.


Alain

[alain]

I like hugin, but agree that its learning curve is steep. Have you considered Microsoft's Image Composite Editor? It's free and my brief trial runs with it have been encouraging.

I've read that ICE is "paid by" adverts show in the application...

[Mark D Segal]

I have used most of the ones mentioned.

Right now LR gets most of my single row stitching work love the workflow it offers.

Multiple row Kolor or Ptgui.

Paul C

I too really like Lightroom for single row stitching (haven't nereded to do other types yet). Not only the ease of the workflow, but the results are more often than not literally "seamless".

[Paul2660]

Boundary warp, IMO is a great tool also.  The LR pitch showed an image that had quite a bit of horizon distortion when warped, but in actual use, I just don't see that. I most often stitch with wides, even 15mm, and I know the limitations with that.  Most times you can only get a cylindrical or spherical solution, which will always cut into the top and bottom (no different with ptgui or Kolor's tools).  CC has the content aware fill (most times works OK on sky, but can't really get the bottoms right, whenever there is a lot of detail without repetition of details. 

LR seems to get the best solution with raw input for some reason especially when blending a blue sky across multiple frames.  Just wish Adobe would get the IQ100 support added to LR.

Paul C

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Thanks Bart,

I'll check PTGUI pro out.

Shooting technique is careful hand hold for landscapes.  If I can take a tripod -without carrying it to long- I use a tripod with a ballhead.  No pano heads.

Well, that's bad news for Fully Automatic stitching like AutoPano Giga (and LR for that matter) does, depending on the subject and composition. So that leaves PTGUI Pro and HUGIN (with the Advanced or Expert user interface setting if making is needed, or lots of manual optimizations), and both offer a lot of manual control to solve issues. Use plenty of overlap (30% - 50%) between tiles to increase the chances of repair if also busy foregrounds are involved.

You can improve the stitching quality of both foreground and background features at the same time, by practicing hand held shooting. Try rotating (Yaw) by walking around the entrance pupil of the lens, instead of rotating around you neck. Some people who need to travel light use a string (hanging from the camera, near the entrance pupil, and stepped on with one's foot) as tripod stabilization.

Cheers,
Bart

[alain]

Well, that's bad news for Fully Automatic stitching like AutoPano Giga (and LR for that matter) does, depending on the subject and composition. So that leaves PTGUI Pro and HUGIN (with the Advanced or Expert user interface setting if making is needed, or lots of manual optimizations), and both offer a lot of manual control to solve issues. Use plenty of overlap (30% - 50%) between tiles to increase the chances of repair if also busy foregrounds are involved.

You can improve the stitching quality of both foreground and background features at the same time, by practicing hand held shooting. Try rotating (Yaw) by walking around the entrance pupil of the lens, instead of rotating around you neck. Some people who need to travel light use a string (hanging from the camera, near the entrance pupil, and stepped on with one's foot) as tripod stabilization.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart

Sometimes it's not doable to bring a tripod, it does make a difference on a 8-10 hour walk ;-)
The string is a very nice idea, now make something that can be attached to my L-bracket.

I indeed try to rotate around the entrance pupil or at least so stable possible.

Alain

[Jeremy Roussak]

Well, that's bad news for Fully Automatic stitching like AutoPano Giga (and LR for that matter) does, depending on the subject and composition.

Bart,

I accept your technical expertise far exceeds mine, but I think you're being a little pessimistic. I have used AutoPano (not the Giga version) to stitch a good few panoramas, single-row horizontal, multiple row and vertical column, hand-held without enormous care other than good overlap. The results have been excellent, for the most part. They're landscapes, without much in the near foreground, which of course helps,

Nowadays, I tend to use LR; but that's not an option for the OP.

Jeremy

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Bart,

I accept your technical expertise far exceeds mine, but I think you're being a little pessimistic. I have used AutoPano (not the Giga version) to stitch a good few panoramas, single-row horizontal, multiple row and vertical column, hand-held without enormous care other than good overlap. The results have been excellent, for the most part. They're landscapes, without much in the near foreground, which of course helps,

Hi Jeremy,

Well, as you say, with little in the foreground, we cannot get too much parallax. My 'pessimism', or rather caution, is based on the experience that when you can least use it, parallax will ruin the shot. When it's not mission critical, there are hardly issues (either way).

I'm just trying to prevent an over-confidence on "the Stitcher will take care of it". It often does (e.g. if  liberal overlaps are used), but it does it even better when the input is also high quality. That probably has something to do with one of my prior roles as a quality assurance project leader, where avoiding GIGO is important, and it's much cheaper to avoid that garbage input (GI) early in the chain of events. And Murphy's law is also looking for opportunities to make things go south when you don't expect it and can least afford it.

Nowadays, I tend to use LR; but that's not an option for the OP.

Correct, the OP is looking for a solution outside of ACR/LR. Besides, LR is much like AutoPano, when it works fine then all is fine, but when it doesn't work, one is in trouble (Although AutoPano offers things that can be done to rectify the situation). One of the things that LR got wrong since introduction of stitching, and I'm not sure it's fixed yet, is the inability to Correct CA on the tiles and then Stitch them as a Panorama.  But that's something for another thread.

So I am just cautioning to do it in a way that optimizes success.

Cheers,
Bart

[alain]

I'm aware that Bart has high quality standards ;-)  I also try to get the best quality, considering the circumstances.

I also try to limit the amount of programs and rather have a slightly better tool for those moments that I need it.  Nothing worse than learning a tool on a tricky picture.

[Chairman Bill]

For what it's worth, I use Hugin & find it to be excellent.

[alain]

For what it's worth, I use Hugin & find it to be excellent.

Thanks for the info.
Did you found it to have a steep learning curve or was it easy to get started and get good results?

[kers]

I am a frequent user of ptGUI;
I do not need the pro-version for i do al my "ghosting" in photoshop.
I think it is a very solid program, well made and leaves you many decisions of how you want to use it.
It is very transparant and flexible - unlike the automatic programs.
Combined with good stitching gear and some knowledge panos made with a 36MP camera come out pixel perfect.
If your computer has a bit of RAM (16) and a good GPU it is blazing fast.
I can imagine Hugin is at the same level, also based on the same roots :Helmut Dersch his work, with some less frontend; but i have no experience with it.
Autopano, Photoshop, goes often autowrong and then i am stuck.

[Ajoy Roy]

At one time I used Hugin, but after using Microsoft ICE, I am sold on it. ICE is excellent if you have taken the individual shots with proper overlap and nothing moves. At one time I had a stitch where a person moved and ICE just displayed the top half floating with no legs. Otherwise I have stitched monuments, panoramas and groups with no problem.

[Alan Smallbone]

I'm aware that Bart has high quality standards ;-)  I also try to get the best quality, considering the circumstances.

I also try to limit the amount of programs and rather have a slightly better tool for those moments that I need it.  Nothing worse than learning a tool on a tricky picture.

I lack a lot of Bart's technical expertise but I have been using Ptgui Pro for many years since early days of it, around version2, it is an excellent program, and I feel it is the best of the group at least in my testing. I have tried Hugin but find Ptgui to be a better fit for me. Everything these days has a learning curve if you want a high quality output, just my $0.02 worth of opinion. I totally agree with everything Bart has said about the different pano stitchers and techniques.

Alan

[Hening Bettermann]

[...] Try rotating (Yaw) by walking around the entrance pupil of the lens, instead of rotating around you neck. Some people who need to travel light use a string (hanging from the camera, near the entrance pupil, and stepped on with one's foot) as tripod stabilization.

Cheers,
Bart

I think I read somewhere that stitchers these days can handle rotation around the camera tripod socket, so I was hoping to pick up pano. I always use tripod wit a 3D head and a normal pano plate, but I have shied away from the extra weight of a setup that allows rotating around the entrance pupil.

Do I have to understand that I am the victim of the "the Stitcher will take care of it" myth?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I think I read somewhere that stitchers these days can handle rotation around the camera tripod socket, so I was hoping to pick up pano. I always use tripod wit a 3D head and a normal pano plate, but I have shied away from the extra weight of a setup that allows rotating around the entrance pupil.

Do I have to understand that I am the victim of the "the Stitcher will take care of it" myth?

Hi Hening,

Stitchers have become better, but they cannot escape geometry/science. The part that has become better is in hiding the most glaring parallax issues, but the parallax issues themselves remain. As said, if the foreground doesn't have too much detail (like street tiles/bricks), and occlusions (foreground objects hiding background objects), then the automatic hiding will usually be good enough to be acceptable. Then there is also the possibility of manually masking parts of tiles, so that only parts of other tiles are used.

But the only fail safe method is by using a No-Parallax Point bar or rail that allows to place the lens entrance pupil at the axis of rotation, thus eliminating Parallax to begin with. It really doesn't take that much equipment to carry around, especially if one already uses a tripod.

The RRS Pano elements package is all that's needed for single row panos. If one already has a tripod head that rotates at the top, then only the MPR-CL II rail is required (a slightly more versatile set for building a modular system is this).

An ability to shoot single row panos is sufficient for most people if they mount the camera in portrait orientation (for more vertical FOV). The horizontal FOV is then covered by adding fewer or more tiles. More equipment can be used to facilitate specific procedures, but using a simple bar/rail is a good start that already will improve our chances.

For more ease of work, I prefer using an indexing click-stop rotator. That will allow shooting successive frames without having to visually check for the correct amount of overlap between image tiles. That can be useful e.g. for architectural interior shots where the camera needs to be placed too close to a wall or corner to allow inspection of the LCD or viewfinder. It's also helpful for overhead shots or ground-level shots, and it makes shooting a row much faster which could help avoid ghosts of clouds or people.

Cheers,
Bart