Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000  (Read 11008 times)

John Hollenberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1185
Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« on: July 19, 2016, 10:52:17 pm »

Logged

Czornyj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1949
    • zarzadzaniebarwa.pl
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2016, 04:20:44 am »

As usual - excellent review by Scott! I just had the opportunity to play with iPF PRO-4000 a couple of days ago, and had virtually the same impressions. The print quality is excellent, the printer is compact, silent, fast, ergonomic and beautiful :) Well done Canon!

Logged
Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

iCanvas

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 157
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2016, 10:37:48 am »

Exactly how fast is it? Is it twice as fast as the 8400? One and half times as fast? Please give us some indication. I am sure the print quality is great.

Gar
Logged

howardm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2016, 11:36:38 am »

The machine may rock but their industrial designers get a 'C' for the printer being ugly. :)

Czornyj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1949
    • zarzadzaniebarwa.pl
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2016, 12:33:55 pm »

The machine may rock but their industrial designers get a 'C' for the printer being ugly. :)

For me it's absolutely beautiful <3 It's such a cute, little printer :D









Logged
Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

iCanvas

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 157
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2016, 02:44:25 pm »

It definitely looks like a great printer with a lot of new technology, but from this youtube video it is really slow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU6jtf2tbl4

I like the print quality of the pro 4000, paper feed, the Wifi, the touch screen, the reduction of the size of the printer, the replaceable print head, but the slowness is a deal breaker. Also, the 700 ink cartridges are almost $100 more than the Epson P10000. Canon $294, Epson $195.

Gar
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 02:52:58 pm by iCanvas »
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2016, 06:55:41 pm »

I'm surprised that it was not mentioned how rock solid the printing motion appears to be in the YouTube video iCanvas shared. The X300 and X4X0 printers (entire printer sitting on the stand) rock side to side quite violently as the head carriage moves. I never found that to be desirable. The Epsons in comparison since the X900 series felt totally solid, no side to side rocking at all. Looks like Canon achieved this too. Can anyone confirm? Seems quieter too, overall. I'm so glad to hear that the dot pattern has been greatly improved. Marcin, would you say it's as good as Epson's X900 or PX000 printers now? I know you have been critical and very astute about that issue in the past, with that excellent close-up comparison of your 8300 against a X900.

Looks like an absolutely stunning printer overall, more appealing than a P9000 for me in many ways. I only wish that the dmax for matte media can be improved to match the new Epsons. L*14 is very nice and solid on matte media, while L*16 looks a little dusty. I hope there is expanded and useful additional gamut in the light, warm colors (autumn leaves colors) which Canon traditionally has been lacking because of a magenta that isn't chromatic enough. I wonder if using the MCT to create your own custom media setting so as to increase the ink load to High(est) will offer any useful gain in dmax for media like Canson Rag Photographique which can tolerate massive ink loads.

Also wish they could offer us the option of a light light gray option in addition to chroma optimizer, for those who don't need it, or even better, let us apply CO to matte prints, to seal off the hydrophilic surface. Maybe a RIP and/or second pass printing (ugh, paper skew and possible risky damage to printed surface from double passing) can achieve that.
Logged

Czornyj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1949
    • zarzadzaniebarwa.pl
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 03:51:20 am »

I'm surprised that it was not mentioned how rock solid the printing motion appears to be in the YouTube video iCanvas shared. The X300 and X4X0 printers (entire printer sitting on the stand) rock side to side quite violently as the head carriage moves. I never found that to be desirable. The Epsons in comparison since the X900 series felt totally solid, no side to side rocking at all. Looks like Canon achieved this too. Can anyone confirm? Seems quieter too, overall. I'm so glad to hear that the dot pattern has been greatly improved. Marcin, would you say it's as good as Epson's X900 or PX000 printers now? I know you have been critical and very astute about that issue in the past, with that excellent close-up comparison of your 8300 against a X900.

Looks like an absolutely stunning printer overall, more appealing than a P9000 for me in many ways. I only wish that the dmax for matte media can be improved to match the new Epsons. L*14 is very nice and solid on matte media, while L*16 looks a little dusty. I hope there is expanded and useful additional gamut in the light, warm colors (autumn leaves colors) which Canon traditionally has been lacking because of a magenta that isn't chromatic enough. I wonder if using the MCT to create your own custom media setting so as to increase the ink load to High(est) will offer any useful gain in dmax for media like Canson Rag Photographique which can tolerate massive ink loads.

Also wish they could offer us the option of a light light gray option in addition to chroma optimizer, for those who don't need it, or even better, let us apply CO to matte prints, to seal off the hydrophilic surface. Maybe a RIP and/or second pass printing (ugh, paper skew and possible risky damage to printed surface from double passing) can achieve that.

It's rock solid - there's only one print head, and cutter is separated - so the carriage is much lighter and doesn't shake the machine while printig. It's very silent indeed (sorry for the FB):
https://www.facebook.com/MarcinCzornyjKaluza/videos/1109039909166037/


Screening is invisible, and looks smooth even under loupe inspection. The transitions look perfect, tonality is at least as good as in case of K4 PIXMA Pro-1.

It reaches L*15 on best matte media, and the matte prints are very 3D looking and have lot of depth impression. Ink layer is smoother in touch than in case of x400, so the matte prints are less fragile.

The dmax on baryta media is as good as it gets (L*1), black is black hole like, so there's no need to improve anything. The density of black is rather a matter of pigment layer structure uniformity than ink amount, so I guess that the ink amount is just sufficient and there won't be any gain of dmax if we put more ink on paper. If you print black again and again in the same place it won't get darker, it can even get worse ;)

I had tried to apply CO to matte prints, but it didn't make any noticable difference.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 04:08:50 am by Czornyj »
Logged
Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

GrahamBy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1813
    • Some of my photos
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 05:37:18 am »

The X300 and X4X0 printers (entire printer sitting on the stand) rock side to side quite violently as the head carriage moves. I never found that to be desirable.

It's potentially a good thing, given a fixed carriage weight. You have to stop it and accelerate it back the other way, which means a lot of momentum transfer from the carriage to the printer. Letting the printer sway reduces the peak acceleration, and therefore the maximum mechanical load on all the parts that drive the carriage. Would you prefer to bang your head against a solid wall, or one that gives a bit? Plus it helps agitate the ink, it's a win-win situation, really...  :)

You just need to ensure the paper is held securely relative to the printer chassis...

If the carriage is lighter, then it's less of an issue, and if you have a more sophisticated driver that slows and re-accelerates the carriage more progressively, still less.
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 09:26:55 am »

It's rock solid - there's only one print head, and cutter is separated - so the carriage is much lighter and doesn't shake the machine while printig. It's very silent indeed (sorry for the FB):
https://www.facebook.com/MarcinCzornyjKaluza/videos/1109039909166037/

Screening is invisible, and looks smooth even under loupe inspection. The transitions look perfect, tonality is at least as good as in case of K4 PIXMA Pro-1.

It reaches L*15 on best matte media, and the matte prints are very 3D looking and have lot of depth impression. Ink layer is smoother in touch than in case of x400, so the matte prints are less fragile.

The dmax on baryta media is as good as it gets (L*1), black is black hole like, so there's no need to improve anything. The density of black is rather a matter of pigment layer structure uniformity than ink amount, so I guess that the ink amount is just sufficient and there won't be any gain of dmax if we put more ink on paper. If you print black again and again in the same place it won't get darker, it can even get worse ;)

I had tried to apply CO to matte prints, but it didn't make any noticable difference.

Thanks Marcin! I don't mind the FB link. Wow. What an amazing printer from Canon! The carriage looks much smaller than before indeed. Did you notice if it decelerates before stopping and moving the opposite direction? Or is the more silent operation just because its mass is less? I feel it's more of the latter, judging from just your video.

Sounds amazing about the dot pattern and visual tonality. Would you say it's even smoother than Epson's screening now? L*15 is not bad, although L*14 is a quite visible difference and properly solid. The P7/9000 Epsons let you lay down more ink with the color density slider, and the dmax goes from L*16 down to L*14 with heavier ink loads, at least on some matte media. Maybe the Canon could do better, maybe not? It sounds like you already optimised the inking in your tests for highest dmax.

When I mentioned CO on matte prints, I am thinking of the CO sealing the hydrophillic nature of the ink receptive coating layer of these aqueous inkjet papers, so they will be less susceptible to harmful fumes in the air. Some folks spray their prints with Print Shield for that protective effect. Mark McCormick-Goodhart does that. I'm adverse to spraying anything like Print Shield (risk of encephalopathy among other downsides), so letting the printer do the coating would be nice. You say it doesn't change the visual appearance, so that is actually a good thing! May I know how did you fool the printer into applying a CO pass? Did you double print and cheated the driver by saying its a glossy media?

Oh, did you make a close up picture of the pinch rollers that feed the paper? I'm curious as to how Canon re-designed the feed mechanism. How is it different from the iPF83/400 printers? My and other 8400 printers mark softer papers like Canson Platine and Rag Photographique. I wonder if the new rollers are any kinder to less structurally rigid media, or if we could even adjust the amount of clamping force applied.

The old design uses a spring in the center of a lever style arm, with the rollers on the other end. The Epson P9000 uses a lever spring that sits between two of three rollers, on the roller axle, which deforms slightly and results in uneven clamping force across the rollers. In addition, the clamping force is a bit high. A friend who has the P9000 had a look at the P20000 and informed me it is re-engineered - it uses two springs of about half the strength, one in each of the two roller gaps and the plastic chassis/bracket/assembly has been approximately doubled in rigidity.  The peak roller force seems to be about half what it was, but the minimum force (at the outer ends) is still much lower than the force near the spring ends. Better but not ideal. I'm very much of the opinion that the Canon design is overall better, as it distributes the clamping force more evenly, it just is a bit too much clamping force for delicate papers.

Canon iPF8400 part:
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2016, 09:34:13 am »

It's potentially a good thing, given a fixed carriage weight. You have to stop it and accelerate it back the other way, which means a lot of momentum transfer from the carriage to the printer. Letting the printer sway reduces the peak acceleration, and therefore the maximum mechanical load on all the parts that drive the carriage. Would you prefer to bang your head against a solid wall, or one that gives a bit? Plus it helps agitate the ink, it's a win-win situation, really...  :)

You just need to ensure the paper is held securely relative to the printer chassis...

If the carriage is lighter, then it's less of an issue, and if you have a more sophisticated driver that slows and re-accelerates the carriage more progressively, still less.

I read this before somewhere here, I think when someone asked about putting a HPZ3200 24 inch printer on a table vs stand. I forget if its you or Ernst or someone who said that a stand will be better, to allow the system to rock to reduce stresses overall. It is a good thing if you're thinking of that. I'm well aware of this issue, but thanks for the reminder.

However lots of vibrations is not a good thing if we want super duper precise dot placement accuracy, which the Pro-2/4000 seem to offer, going by what Scott and Marcin say. That was one of the niggling bits that irritated me with my Canons. It certainly could be better in that respect and now it is. The less vibrations the better. I do wish there was an option to allow deceleration of the carriage in my iPF8400, trading off speed for better quality. I don't need prints instantly.
Logged

GrahamBy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1813
    • Some of my photos
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2016, 10:21:51 am »

However lots of vibrations is not a good thing if we want super duper precise dot placement accuracy, which the Pro-2/4000 seem to offer, going by what Scott and Marcin say. That was one of the niggling bits that irritated me with my Canons. It certainly could be better in that respect and now it is. The less vibrations the better. I do wish there was an option to allow deceleration of the carriage in my iPF8400, trading off speed for better quality. I don't need prints instantly.

I think it was Paul Roark who mentioned the ink settling issue :-) Agree absolutely that when you want really fine dot placement, the pros/cons favour minimizing vibration... on the same principle as modern high speed machining stations. I note just above that it seems my speculation about more progressive reversal of the carriage might have been correct: that sounds like more up-to date motion control algorithms, which are unlikely to be a possible upgrade for earlier machines :-(
Logged

MichaelClementi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2016, 12:30:21 pm »

It definitely looks like a great printer with a lot of new technology, but from this youtube video it is really slow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU6jtf2tbl4

I like the print quality of the pro 4000, paper feed, the Wifi, the touch screen, the reduction of the size of the printer, the replaceable print head, but the slowness is a deal breaker. Also, the 700 ink cartridges are almost $100 more than the Epson P10000. Canon $294, Epson $195.

Gar

This video shows printing from USB which technically the user needs to do a firmware update which will speed up the printer's usb functionality.  Printing from the computer driver will send and process the file at a much faster pace.
Logged

MichaelClementi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2016, 12:31:55 pm »

The Rocking has improved due to the new chassis being composed of a solid metal.   This has translated into less shake.
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2016, 07:44:42 pm »

The Rocking has improved due to the new chassis being composed of a solid metal.   This has translated into less shake.

The previous generation Canons were also built on a chassis of metal, which in the past two generations Canon claimed to have strengthened to reduce shake. I feel the chassis is not the problem. It doesn't rattle about. The entire printer just rocks about on its stand, the entire assembly rocks in a solid, one-piece manner. The huge mass of the carriage stopping/decelerating very suddenly at the end of each pass and accelerating very quickly in the other direction seems to be the main culprit. Either the printer should gain a great deal of mass to dampen the carriage rocking, or the carriage has to decelerate and accelerate more gently at the end of each pass, or even better - what Canon has already done on the new Pro printers. Much smaller and lighter carriage!

Michael of Lexjet right? I just read your review of the Pro-2/4000 printer on the blog. Thanks for writing it up. I especially enjoyed the comparison view of the microscope comparison. I wonder if the Pro text could be even sharper - notice how the left-right edges are much more lumpy than the top-bottom edges, and the lumps are much larger in width than the actual printed dots.
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Review of Canon iPF Pro-4000
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2016, 07:54:14 pm »

I think it was Paul Roark who mentioned the ink settling issue :-) Agree absolutely that when you want really fine dot placement, the pros/cons favour minimizing vibration... on the same principle as modern high speed machining stations. I note just above that it seems my speculation about more progressive reversal of the carriage might have been correct: that sounds like more up-to date motion control algorithms, which are unlikely to be a possible upgrade for earlier machines :-(

Oh yes, thanks, found the old post. I'm not sure I can detect the more sophisticated carriage controls in Marcin's or ITsupplies' videos. It sure would be nice to see a slow motion video comparison with the printer lids open, against the iPF8400.

I found a video of the Epson 9900, since I can't recall from memory and don't have an Epson lying about. It doesn't appear to decelerate the carriage before changing direction but the printer doesn't rock either.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up