Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch

[zineevo]

I'm a Hasselblad user.

Software
Phocus vS C1 as Bob said chalk and cheese. Phocus just exists get your images from RAW to whatever and it does that very well. They are adding features (I know, I'm a beta) but it will never be as featured as the excellent C1.

Lenses.
Hasselblad lenses are excellent (bar the 35mm which is not so great) and they benefit from digital corrections based on the shooting conditions, aperture, focus distance etc. C1 does not have this level of precision at least not with HC and HCD lenses. Probably not your thing but the HTS corrections are amazing.

Camera/back
I haven't used an XF so can't comment there. I really like my H series and True Focus. Hasselblad were behind the IQ series until the H6D with which I think they have caught up, but again I'm not familiar with the IQ series.

The X1D is awesome, just saying:)

The IQ-Series were better than the H4D, H5D in my opinion. But now they really stepped up to the game.
What I experienced is that the Menu and the layout of the back is easier to navigate than on the PhaseOne. But you feel that the H6D is not as mature as the IQ in terms of option.

But Hasselblad is putting out Firmware-Updates very fast and it starts to get better and better.

One point that scares me a little when I think to switch to Hasselblad is the Upgrade-Options in terms of Software:
The PhaseOne XF Body and Back getting great Software and Feature Updates through the Firmware and they improve over time.

I don't know how the H6D is capable in terms of that... Does anybody know more?

[DrakeJ]

The IQ-Series were better than the H4D, H5D in my opinion. But now they really stepped up to the game.
What I experienced is that the Menu and the layout of the back is easier to navigate than on the PhaseOne. But you feel that the H6D is not as mature as the IQ in terms of option.

But Hasselblad is putting out Firmware-Updates very fast and it starts to get better and better.

One point that scares me a little when I think to switch to Hasselblad is the Upgrade-Options in terms of Software:
The PhaseOne XF Body and Back getting great Software and Feature Updates through the Firmware and they improve over time.

I don't know how the H6D is capable in terms of that... Does anybody know more?

I am kind of betting on the fact that P1 will continue to do updates to their XF which really seems to be a platform on which they wish to expand upon. Looking at the history of Hasselblad, it seems they release a camera and then don't do much to it. If you look at the update between H4 and H5, I'm certain they could have updated the H4 with firmware to update it to True Focus II which takes into account the curvature of each lens. But they didn't do it. So I wouldn't hold my breath that Hasselblad will release major updates to a current lineup, they will most likely save it to the next version instead.

But I could be wrong of course

The XF has an extreme amount of potential, but it is up to how good their developers are and what they can do that won't infringe on others patents. And whether they decide to release a new housing later on and ditch the XF.

This was a factor for me choosing P1 instead of the H6 / X1D, the other factor is that Phocus is a rubbish software in its current version, imho.

[zineevo]

I am kind of betting on the fact that P1 will continue to do updates to their XF which really seems to be a platform on which they wish to expand upon. Looking at the history of Hasselblad, it seems they release a camera and then don't do much to it. If you look at the update between H4 and H5, I'm certain they could have updated the H4 with firmware to update it to True Focus II which takes into account the curvature of each lens. But they didn't do it. So I wouldn't hold my breath that Hasselblad will release major updates to a current lineup, they will most likely save it to the next version instead.

But I could be wrong of course

The XF has an extreme amount of potential, but it is up to how good their developers are and what they can do that won't infringe on others patents. And whether they decide to release a new housing later on and ditch the XF.

This was a factor for me choosing P1 instead of the H6 / X1D, the other factor is that Phocus is a rubbish software in its current version, imho.

That is an important point. I don't really know about the past H-Models and their Updates.
The only thing I saw is, that with the H6D, they're putting out a lot of Updates. I also think, that this will continue because of the new electronic platform - as my dealer said, they have now a better base to produce Updates.
But time will tell

As I said - Phocus doesn't really bother me.

But the preview of the image on the back is much more accurate on the Phase than on the H6D... I also don't know if this can be fixed or improved with a Firmware-Update.

[DrakeJ]

That is an important point. I don't really know about the past H-Models and their Updates.
The only thing I saw is, that with the H6D, they're putting out a lot of Updates. I also think, that this will continue because of the new electronic platform - as my dealer said, they have now a better base to produce Updates.
But time will tell

As I said - Phocus doesn't really bother me.

But the preview of the image on the back is much more accurate on the Phase than on the H6D... I also don't know if this can be fixed or improved with a Firmware-Update.

Well it remains to be seen, I'm only looking at their track record. The new electronics platform they refer to is basically a refresh of all internal components to make sure that you get an intuitive fast interface and speed to be able to shoot fast even with 100MP, not extra features. Hasselblad certainly doesn't tout the H6D as a platform they wish to expand upon with new features, and it's not as if the H6D has received a 6-axis gyro with all the features that could entail like the XF has.

The feature with Phocus that bugs me the most is the highlight recovery which is useless. It adds an unnecessary amount of work for a feature that really should be spot on in a RAW-software.

[bdp]

Inside the Studio this is a possible option. But if I'm tethering and use the DC-Power at the same time, working with two cables from two destinations is not ideal.
That's also a plus point to the Phase-System. I can tether and the battery can be charged while shooting to the laptop.

If the battery prices for the Hasselblad were less, that's not a big deal then.

As far as I've heard, Hasselblad is working on powering the back through the USB cable, and hopefully it will charge the battery too. Currently I have to use the DC grip with my H6 and dislike the two cables going from the camera, it's very restrictive and messy. I only own two batteries because my H5 battery would last days if not weeks if I shot tethered. I'm not willing to buy more batteries when a firmware update has been promised to provide power over USB. So hopefully this point will be equal between the two systems.

[synn]

From a feature perspective, there is not much one can gain from switching from one system to another (In either direction); at least nothing that will offset the costs that you will incur from selling one and gettign another. You will win some and lose some on either end, but nothing that you won't be able to live without.

I am a Phamiya user and thus, completely dependent on C1P, but there are plenty of Hassy users who are perfectly happy with Phocus+PS. Similarly, Hassy users love Tru focus, but there are plenty of P1 users who do portraiture without it. etc.

What WILL make a big difference is the ergonomics that you mentioned. This is extremely subjective and one can't put a price on it. If you feel that the ergos of the H system will make a big difference in how you work, then go ahead and make that swap.

This was one of the biggest reasons I chose to go with Nikon over Canon back when I started digital photography. I just could not get used to the Canon ergos and I felt that the Nikon ergos will let me forget about the camera and focus on the work.

[zineevo]

From a feature perspective, there is not much one can gain from switching from one system to another (In either direction); at least nothing that will offset the costs that you will incur from selling one and gettign another. You will win some and lose some on either end, but nothing that you won't be able to live without.

I am a Phamiya user and thus, completely dependent on C1P, but there are plenty of Hassy users who are perfectly happy with Phocus+PS. Similarly, Hassy users love Tru focus, but there are plenty of P1 users who do portraiture without it. etc.

What WILL make a big difference is the ergonomics that you mentioned. This is extremely subjective and one can't put a price on it. If you feel that the ergos of the H system will make a big difference in how you work, then go ahead and make that swap.

This was one of the biggest reasons I chose to go with Nikon over Canon back when I started digital photography. I just could not get used to the Canon ergos and I felt that the Nikon ergos will let me forget about the camera and focus on the work.

For the last few days I've compared both systems, made some pro and contra sheets in Excel.
Sometimes it's more a personal decision than a logical as you said. I'll miss the better preview on the back, but if the ergonomics and the grip is better it makes sense to switch. Because I work a lot with the camera and if I can focus more on the shoot than on the camera, that's a huge plus

But it's a great discussion in this thread and some good insights into the H-System.

Switching from a Brand on the "same level" is much more complicated than upgrading. There's always the fear of regretting

[eronald]

Well it remains to be seen, I'm only looking at their track record. The new electronics platform they refer to is basically a refresh of all internal components to make sure that you get an intuitive fast interface and speed to be able to shoot fast even with 100MP, not extra features. Hasselblad certainly doesn't tout the H6D as a platform they wish to expand upon with new features, and it's not as if the H6D has received a 6-axis gyro with all the features that could entail like the XF has.

The feature with Phocus that bugs me the most is the highlight recovery which is useless. It adds an unnecessary amount of work for a feature that really should be spot on in a RAW-software.

I think the H6D already has a Gyro, in fact the H4 has one, that is how TrueFocus works. I spent 2 weeks struggling with the drift on my Lego toy Gyro, and now have great respect for Hasselblad engineers.

There may be some truth to the idea that with the XF all users benefit from the latest body updates. On the other hand Contax and Leica afficionados will say that sometimes good enough is good enough.

It is nice to see Phase and Hassy now both have products which their users really appreciate. There is now some honest enthusiasm in this forum from actual owners.

[DrakeJ]

I think the H6D already has a Gyro, in fact the H4 has one, that is how TrueFocus works. I spent 2 weeks struggling with the drift on my Lego toy Gyro, and now have great respect for Hasselblad engineers.

There may be some truth to the idea that with the XF all users benefit from the latest body updates. On the other hand Contax and Leica afficionados will say that sometimes good enough is good enough.

It is nice to see Phase and Hassy now both have products which their users really appreciate. There is now some honest enthusiasm in this forum from actual owners.

The gyro is limited to detecting 2d movement (or at least I've read so on the internet, thus it must be true? ) so it's not a 6-axis gyro which opens up a whole lot more possibilities. My hope is that P1 soon release support for image stabilization for instance. They already save the gyro information in the raw file. My hope is that they release a true focus on steroids as well which takes into account all kinds of movements even laterally.

[Bo Dez]

The glaring omission from medium format is one fast lens, something like the Contax 80mm f2.0.

The Hasselblad 110 2.2 is ok-ish but it's not grabbing me. The Zeiss 110mm Planar is incredible but old and you have to adapt and stop down. The contax 80 f2 would be amazing but that is a done deal except for on a Leica S and who knows if that will even kick on, but 37MP is not something I will buy in medium format.

Why won't Phase or Hasselblad give us something? 80mm f2 or even 1.8? This for me would make this decision, Phase or Hasselblad, an easy one. Phase One even have the Mamiya f1.9 design to build from.

[eronald]

The gyro is limited to detecting 2d movement (or at least I've read so on the internet, thus it must be true? ) so it's not a 6-axis gyro which opens up a whole lot more possibilities. My hope is that P1 soon release support for image stabilization for instance. They already save the gyro information in the raw file. My hope is that they release a true focus on steroids as well which takes into account all kinds of movements even laterally.

You need 2 axes data for the type of focus correction which Hassy pioneered, I think the names would be yaw and pitch. Roll doesn't imply a focus correction. The other"axes" are actually AFAIK inertial shake measurements and not rotation numbers; I have no idea what Hassy are using as a chip but I assume nowadays 6 "D" is standard and one just throws data away. All the Sony and Olympus cameras run such chips for IBIS.

I am sure any system you hope for from Phase is superior in your imagination to whatever Hassy has released 10 years ago; personally I think their seismometer is quite nifty and the best they can probably do without infringing someone's IP. Another application would be handheld stitching and panos.

Edmund

[BAB]

One would think that if your competitor has a slight advantage of software features you would hire a team of engineers to make your products if not similar close as far as features go....H has hire on some of those people. Crippling any features that were present with the H5D and now not present on the H6D is not a way I personally would proceed with a new platform!

However changing the body is a much more complicated and costly adventure especially now (today's money) the change would need to include a strong growth forecast for sales to recover tooling and R&D costs which would take a lot of money from new customers, I'm not sure the market is now that big to justify that venture.

[calindustries]

What's crippled on the H6 that was on the H5? (not yet used an H6, waiting to see if an H6x model comes out)

One would think that if your competitor has a slight advantage of software features you would hire a team of engineers to make your products if not similar close as far as features go....H has hire on some of those people. Crippling any features that were present with the H5D and now not present on the H6D is not a way I personally would proceed with a new platform!

However changing the body is a much more complicated and costly adventure especially now (today's money) the change would need to include a strong growth forecast for sales to recover tooling and R&D costs which would take a lot of money from new customers, I'm not sure the market is now that big to justify that venture.

[Joe Towner]

Sometimes it's more a personal decision than a logical as you said.

Actually, it's more and more a personal decision.  As has been said on this forum and many others, what works best for you may not work for someone else.  Knowing and discerning the differences is really important as there are trade-offs, but in the end, you have to be happy with your decision, and more importantly use the tools to create something.  As we all have different hands, how a camera fits in yours matters.

[DrakeJ]

You need 2 axes data for the type of focus correction which Hassy pioneered, I think the names would be yaw and pitch. Roll doesn't imply a focus correction. The other"axes" are actually AFAIK inertial shake measurements and not rotation numbers; I have no idea what Hassy are using as a chip but I assume nowadays 6 "D" is standard and one just throws data away. All the Sony and Olympus cameras run such chips for IBIS.

I am sure any system you hope for from Phase is superior in your imagination to whatever Hassy has released 10 years ago; personally I think their seismometer is quite nifty and the best they can probably do without infringing someone's IP. Another application would be handheld stitching and panos.

Edmund

Roll was certainly not what I meant when i said "lateral", but imho I disagree as to lateral movement. To get the third dimension would be awesome and would eliminate user errors in many situations. I would think if Hassy had updated their gyros to include 6-axis they would mention it.

[eronald]

Roll was certainly not what I meant when i said "lateral", but imho I disagree as to lateral movement. To get the third dimension would be awesome and would eliminate user errors in many situations. I would think if Hassy had updated their gyros to include 6-axis they would mention it.

You are right, precise z axis integration would help for precise focus eg. with the 100 f2.2.

Edmund

[landscapephoto]

Why won't Phase or Hasselblad give us something 80mm f2 or even 1.8?

The central shutter in H lenses makes the design of fast lenses tricky.

[Christopher]

That's why I love my Phase 150/2,8 and never warmed up to the leaf shutter version


Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu

[Bo Dez]

The central shutter in H lenses makes the design of fast lenses tricky.

Yup, which is why I'm not holding my breath for anything to speak of with the X1D. I think an 80mm f2 or 1.8 would be a massive point of leverage for Phase One at this point.

[zineevo]

Actually, it's more and more a personal decision.  As has been said on this forum and many others, what works best for you may not work for someone else.  Knowing and discerning the differences is really important as there are trade-offs, but in the end, you have to be happy with your decision, and more importantly use the tools to create something.  As we all have different hands, how a camera fits in yours matters.

Yes! The "tool" needs to help my work and be more efficient.
There are trade-offs and there are some improvements. Sometimes it's not that easy to decide when reading through a forum like LuLa and see all the different opinions about the systems.

At the moment I'm favoring the H6D-100c, for the ergonomics, weight, ease of use, 4K-Video, TrueFocus and also the pricing of their bodies and lenses.
So my PhaseOne XF IQ380 and the lenses maybe for sale in a few days