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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 341678 times)

scyth

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1020 on: December 17, 2016, 09:57:46 am »

If businesses do good and grow, then there are more jobs, and better paying jobs.

off-shore for example

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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1021 on: December 17, 2016, 01:22:19 pm »

Rob C:  I was addressing my response to Robert's post, not yours. 

Regarding your post, you're not correct in thinking that what's good for business is not good for workers.  If businesses do good and grow, then there are more jobs, and better paying jobs.  For "regular" people.  You're just being cute.  People understand what I'm talking about.  And the people who voted for Trump understand he's a billionaire.  They don't care.  They voted for an outsider hoping he'll keep his word and do good by them.  If he doesn't, then he won't get re-elected.  No one thinks Hillary, the classic self-absorbed insider,  cares a hoot and would do anything to help the economy.

"you're not correct in thinking that what's good for business is not good for workers."

Theory.

Britain lost a huge part of its industrial companies and might a couple of decades before labour-cost evolution would have taken it down anyway. How come? Simple: our dedicated, leftist unions sucked the life out of them by striking, by keeping to almost imaginary lines of work-demarcation, disputing every single decision managements made. Managements eventually gave up and owners closed down loss-making investments which, oddly enough, seemed to come as a complete surprises to the workers and unions involved. But truth to tell, nobody with any personal experience of the factory floor will issue blanket blame on workers: intimidation comes in many forms, and I have shared first-hand experience of resisting the common union-driven call to strike action. (I was lucky: all that happened was that certain parts of the company workforce refused to speak to me again, which was, if anything, quite a relief from having to keep up a false camaraderie I never felt. Anyway, within a year I was out of that world forever, and into a new career in photography.) Unions and workers are distinct animals, often with vastly different agendas. So don't rely on the theory that a successful company automatically wins loyalty or remains successful; people make odd choices and are often brought around to viewing company success as exploitation of themselves...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14972801.Festive_misery_for_travellers__as_airport_crews_vote_to_strike/?ref=ebln

" For "regular" people.  You're just being cute.  People understand what I'm talking about."

Cute? You should have seen me when I had hair, wore dark, paisley-patterned shirts with long collars, leather jackets and purple jeans and, sometimes, Spanish-heeled (European equivalent to cowboy) boots! Cute? Mirrors fell in love with me!

Of course people understand what you're talking about; trouble is, their understanding of it may not be the same as yours, which is the whole problem (and danger) of sweeping statements and generalisations.

" No one thinks Hillary, the classic (1)self-absorbed insider,  cares a hoot and (2)would do anything to help the economy."

If that, making such a negative relationship between 1 and 2, is not a direct contradiction between two related ideas, then I have never seen one. She is not a poor person; she and hubby were very much wealthier when he left office than when he took it up, and the better the economy the better their own economy is going to become! Sheesh, even I can appreciate that.

Your argument reminds me of the union positions I described a few lines above, exactly reversed, so perhaps I can begin to understand your position, which just underlines the difficulty of using terms such as "regular" when writing about a broad sweep of people. Anyway, I wouldn't think of the Clints as either unionised labour or "regular" folks.

;-)

Rob

« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 01:31:10 pm by Rob C »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1022 on: December 17, 2016, 06:03:54 pm »


I'm afraid the first link has sound that I can't hear well enough to keep continuity, so had to abandon ship.
....

Rob


I tried the link and the audio is perfectly fine.  Now the content maybe boring, but it is evidence, and how we take it is only reflecting of what we accept as truth based on our wishes vs our reality. If Obama, someone who I supported with his Hope and change campaign, did get elected with fraud, while on top of that he didn't come through with a number of the world changing differences he was supposed to make, less war, less unlawful inprisonment, less of a race to invade places, less government in privacy, in unlawful search, in unlawful spying on the entire public, less gov control on peoples lives...more for people in US, more for prosperous work generation.  You can argue we are better now, but all these things are in WORSE situation for the public, while he does look better for coming out of a worst situation the entire country was.

So if this evidence is valid, and I have no reason or anyones reason to object it, IF you look at the physical evidence...You must ask yourself...What else can so easily be misrepresented?

The link should not have audio issues...
https://youtu.be/yuhF-Ok3djI

As far as the British lord, I had not heard of before, and have no clue. But I did find it interesting and worth sharing, since he *CLAIMS he was a key player in Brexit.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:10:22 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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If you buy a camera, you're a photographer...

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1023 on: December 17, 2016, 06:15:16 pm »

since he was a key player in Brexit.
Absolutely NOT. A complete nobody in the UK.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1024 on: December 17, 2016, 06:24:55 pm »

" No one thinks Hillary, the classic (1)self-absorbed insider,  cares a hoot and (2)would do anything to help the economy."

If that, making such a negative relationship between 1 and 2, is not a direct contradiction between two related ideas, then I have never seen one. She is not a poor person; she and hubby were very much wealthier when he left office than when he took it up, and the better the economy the better their own economy is going to become! Sheesh, even I can appreciate that.
====================================================================================
The Clintons didn't depend on how the economy was doing.  They sold "pay to play" access for their political influence in Washington DC by charging $250,000 per speech given to wall street tycoons and foreign sovereigns looking for favors.  Many consider it just out-and-out bribery.  Now that she lost the election, not many will be willing to part with their money.

bcooter

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1025 on: December 18, 2016, 01:59:02 pm »

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1026 on: January 24, 2017, 03:52:44 pm »

So the British Supreme Court said the Parliament must do Article 50 for Brexit to happen.  The people voting for Brexit in a referendum doesn't count.   So what next? 

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1027 on: January 24, 2017, 04:11:07 pm »

So the British Supreme Court said the Parliament must do Article 50 for Brexit to happen.  The people voting for Brexit in a referendum doesn't count.   So what next?
First go and read the BBC news site at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news then when you're better informed come back and comment again.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1028 on: January 24, 2017, 04:16:14 pm »

First go and read the BBC news site at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news then when you're better informed come back and comment again.

Well I'm American and wanted to get Brit's viewpoints.  What I read in another article was that 80% of the PM will vote for it.  Is that true?  It seems like most were against Brexit so are the PM's so frightened of getting re-elected when only 52% of Brits voted for Brexit.  why the change?

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1029 on: January 24, 2017, 04:30:25 pm »

What I read in another article was that 80% of the PM will vote for it.  Is that true?  It seems like most were against Brexit so are the PM's so frightened of getting re-elected when only 52% of Brits voted for Brexit.  why the change?
I assume you mean members of parliament (MPs) rather than the prime minister (PM).

It seems that, yes, most MPs won't stick to their convictions and vote what they said they believed and are playing lip service to the "will of the people", so won't challenge the referendum result.
Without an effective opposition party in parliament at the moment, there seems little chance of the other half of the country having their voice heard at all.
It's all a complete f**king mess.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1030 on: January 25, 2017, 12:05:57 am »

Well, Trump has his hand out and wants to help with trade.  Of course, he'll want Big Ben to be shipped to Mara Lago as part of the deal.  I suppose you all could move here. :)

athegn

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1031 on: January 25, 2017, 03:30:23 am »

A group of us were talking yesterday lunchtime about the proposed costs of refurbishing The Houses of Parliment, which includes Big Ben, and agreed that the best option was to sell it off and put a new building on the site.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1032 on: January 25, 2017, 11:09:04 am »

I assume you mean members of parliament (MPs) rather than the prime minister (PM).

It seems that, yes, most MPs won't stick to their convictions and vote what they said they believed and are playing lip service to the "will of the people", so won't challenge the referendum result.
Without an effective opposition party in parliament at the moment, there seems little chance of the other half of the country having their voice heard at all.
It's all a complete f**king mess.

The perfect summing up, and the truest comment of the day!

As somebody pointed out on tv immediately after the little speech by Gina on her victory in the top court in the land, many of us older folks living abroad - there are millions of us, in one way or the other - mostly dependent because of age and natural physical deterioration, on the local health services to keep us alive (and on the strength of pensions deminished by, in my case at least, 20%) - were not even allowed to vote because we'd lived abroad beyond some magically chosen mumber of years. In other words, the older you are, the longer you have been a pensioner, the less your vote counts, especially if you live on the new front line. Next: compulsory euthanasia?

However, had we been given a voice, as unimportant as our lives are, then I suspect that the ratio of yes and no would have been different, to say the least.

And yes, the ability to vote one way and then cling on to power and proceed in the opposite direction beggars belief. Well, no, it doesn't really: it's just par for the bloody course. The immediate effect of that vote should have been a fresh general election with the parties clearly stating their stance on Brexit, and as that's the biggest thing to confront the nation in decades, it's all we needed; everything else becomes peripheral. Incredible that, considering so many false claims were made regarding the instant cash value of leaving, admitted immediately post-result announcement as 'errors' by those who touted them, the entire process was not declared invalid, null and void as having been based upon false premises.

Instead, we get the spectacle of lying politicians strutting their stuff and looking immensely self-satisfied.

Rob C

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1033 on: January 25, 2017, 12:25:40 pm »

Rob, I was wondering, with the threat of reciprocal health arrangements ending and given how long you've been living in Spain, if it would it be possible for you to have dual nationality and if so whether this could safeguard your health care needs?

It's an avenue, but it would bring different inheritance problems for the kids...

The best deal for me (and the kids) would be selling the place and moving back to the UK. Problem is, AYK, I've been on the market for two years without even a nibble. The main hassles faced, today, are about buyer confidence (both Brits and Europeans), the minumum 5% commission estate agents expect (with the massive price boost you have to make to get the money you need out of the deal, which has to be factored in not at 5%, but higher), the extremely volatile exchange rate and the vast stock on every agent's list.

Distress sales do happen, but at prices that would cause the very distress they are meant to relieve. It's a buyer's market with precious few buyers outwith the millionaire class, where property is still seen by some as a hedge against currency. According to a newspaper I read a month or two ago, the southern area of the island had run out of million-euro-plus homes to sell.  The flight from sterling... and possibly the euro, too, which seems to be getting shaky as other nations turn right and consider their own exit options, if for different reasons than did the UK.

One advantage of checking out of here would be a renewed activity in photography: I haven't shot anything in about two weeks. My imagination/interest in repeating the same genre over and over is dead. Frankly, all I look at on the web these days is fashion; I understand how Walter got totally pissed off with pin-ups: I never even look anymore - it simply means nothing to me. The street stuff that grabs my attention is all city-based, and as I live an hour away from the only one here, I see no reward for two hours in the car...

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1034 on: January 25, 2017, 01:23:51 pm »

Rob, I was wondering, with the threat of reciprocal health arrangements ending and given how long you've been living in Spain, if it would it be possible for you to have dual nationality and if so whether this could safeguard your health care needs? 

Rob is unnecessarily concerned. When I was living in Spain, all it took to get full medical coverage was renting an apartment. I did not even have a permanent residency.

Manoli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1035 on: January 25, 2017, 02:26:54 pm »

It's all a complete f**king mess.

Fintan O’Toole: Brexit resurrects the English cult of heroic failure
Move to leave the EU feeds into the British taste for celebrating disasters as triumphs

Quote
Listening to Theresa May’s big Brexit speech last week, I remembered that the English have a taste for heroic failure. Their favourite poem, Rudyard Kipling’s If, says that triumph and disaster are the same thing. It also enjoins the English to “lose, and start again at your beginnings/And never breathe a word about your loss.”

Losing everything – even life itself – and not whining about it is the English ideal of heroism. And I do wonder if this inherited ideal is not playing itself out in Brexit.

While everyone else is screaming “Stop! You’re headed for disaster,” the stiff lips part just enough to say, “Ah, but we will treat it as a triumph and never breathe a word about our loss.”

Most of the modern English heroes, after all, are complete screw-ups. In her very entertaining and insightful book, Heroic Failure and the British, the historian Stephanie Barczewski says the exploits that have loomed largest in English consciousness since the 19th century are retreats or disasters: the Charge of the Light Brigade, the doomed Franklin expedition to find the Northwest Passage, “Scott of the Antarctic”, the “last stand” against the Zulus at Isandlwana, Gordon of Khartoum, the Somme, the flight from Dunkirk.

This culture of heroic failure she defines as “a conscious sense of celebration of the striving for an object that was not attained”.

When everything falls apart

It requires, one might add, an ability not to feel sorry for oneself when everything falls apart.

The essence of English heroic failure is Capt Scott reflecting on his fast-approaching death at the Antarctic: “We took risks, we knew we took them. Things have come out against us, and therefore we have no cause for complaint, but bow to the will of Providence, determined still to do our best to the last.”

I bet Boris Johnson has these lines in his back pocket for use when the messianic hopes of Brexit go down in flames.

Now, it must be admitted that there is something lovable in this English capacity to embrace disaster. It is, for one thing, highly creative. It transforms ugly facts into beautiful fantasies.

The charge of the Light Brigade was hideous idiocy. At the battle of Balaclava in the Crimean war in October 1854, the British cavalry charged, sabres aloft, at the Russian artillery, down a long valley that was also flanked by more Russian guns that could fire on them from above.

It was pure suicidal butchery: survivors wrote things like “never was such murder ordered”. But the English back home loved it. The prime minister Lord Palmerston described it as “glorious” and Alfred Tennyson wrote a poem that every schoolboy, even of my generation in republican Ireland, knew: “Theirs not to make reply,/ Theirs not to reason why,/ Theirs but to do and die.” Like the English working-class being led by their contemporary Tory blimps to charge the European artillery.

So what if they get mauled? It will be glorious – and shame on anyone who asks the reason why.

The problem, however, is that the original English cult of heroic failure was, paradoxically, a symptom of British power.

As Barczewski astutely notes: “Heroic failure . . . neither effected nor engendered decline; on the contrary it arose from British power and dominance, and from the need to provide alternative narratives that distracted from its real-life exploitative and violent aspects.”

Zombie cult

The English could afford to celebrate glorious failure because they were actually very successful – the myths of suffering and endurance covered up the truth that it was mostly other people who had to endure the suffering.

But the return to heroic failure in the psychology of Brexit is a perfect example of a mythic mindset surviving long after it has ceased to be useful.

The English are no longer dominant and powerful.They are a mid-sized, fairly average western European nation. They can’t afford to indulge their inherited tastes for grandiose screw-ups. But they still have a sweet tooth for these empty calories.

Brexit is a perfect vehicle for this zombie cult. It fuses three of the archetypes of heroic English failure.

There is the last stand, exemplified by Gen George Gordon at Khartoum, another fiasco that quickly became a byword for heroism in the face of inevitable disaster: Brexit is imperial England’s last last stand.

There is the suicidal cavalry charge: May hilariously threatened Europe that if it does not play nice, she and Boris will destroy its economic artillery with their flashing sabres.

And there is the doomed expedition into terra incognita to find a promised land. This kind of heroic failure is exemplified by Sir John Franklin’s fatal search for the Northwest Passage in the 1840s.

The gods of history were surely sending a message when, just three months after the Brexit vote, they allowed Franklin’s ship, HMS Terror, to be found at the bottom of an Arctic bay.

Yet, unheeding of this omen, HMS Brexit sets sail into uncharted waters, confident of finding the, as yet undiscovered, passage to the promised land where you can always have more cake even when you’ve eaten it.

How the nation will weep with pride when some future explorers discover its ghostly remains in the icy depths of reality.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-resurrects-the-english-cult-of-heroic-failure-1.2947706
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1036 on: January 25, 2017, 02:48:57 pm »

Fintan O’Toole: Brexit resurrects the English cult of heroic failure
Move to leave the EU feeds into the British taste for celebrating disasters as triumphs

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-resurrects-the-english-cult-of-heroic-failure-1.2947706

So? O'Toole is an Irishman with a particular political standpoint. His own country has benefitted hugely from EU membership, with a vast inward flow of money. He's a literary editor; what ability or knowledge he has to comment on politics or economics is rather unclear.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1037 on: January 25, 2017, 02:54:02 pm »

Rob is unnecessarily concerned. When I was living in Spain, all it took to get full medical coverage was renting an apartment. I did not even have a permanent residency.

But that came as part of working, didn't it? You were paying income tax so you get the benefits; my time for that's long gone. That's how it applies for foreign working people in the UK, too, as I understand the system to be. If the UK bans European foreigners from freedom to work there, why would any other country not reciprocate in the very same way?

I've had residency from back years ago, but I only got access to the national health insurance when I began to run a business of my own here. (Cost me twice as much as what I was still paying into the UK system to guarantee a state pension from there.) That's why we originally had a private policy - before I worked here, we were not entitled to a national one for the obvious reason that we had never contributed to the country's system of health. But, as far as I remember, once one became of pensionable age, then it was a mutually agreed arrangement, even before the Common Market thing, that health became a right as long as one had a UK penison being paid into Spain, supposedly to prove one could be self-sufficient. A joke today! At best, I think a pension pays for between forty to fifty percent of what it costs to live quietly. With the fall in the pound, that percentage is even more negative. I would love to be mistaken, but if I am, so is every other expat here with whom I've talked about this grim game being played out over our heads. I just hope that if I make another two years, the powers that be will have worked out a way of mutual support for their old folks' medical care!

;-)

Rob

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1038 on: January 25, 2017, 02:56:15 pm »

So the British Supreme Court said the Parliament must do Article 50 for Brexit to happen.  The people voting for Brexit in a referendum doesn't count.   So what next?

Not quite.

1. The referendum was advisory, not mandatory, in contrast to our (thankfully few) referenda in the past.
2. The question before the Supreme Court was whether Article 50 could be invoked by the Royal Prerogative or whether it needed Parliament's approval. The arguments were interesting and nuanced, as illustrated by their Lordships' 8:3 split on the point.
3. The result of the referendum will have some influence - a very considerable influence, I would imagine - over the way in which individual MPs vote on the enabling Bill.
4. Then we carry on. It's a vast amount of fuss, but ultimately it has been Hamlet's tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing. Nobody seriously doubts that the Bill will pass, that Article 50 will be invoked and that we will leave the EU.

That is all the SC decision has involved. Not the status of the referendum; not whether our leaving is a good idea or not; not whether membership of the single market or the customs union was, is or will be a good idea; just the mechanism by which Article 50 can be invoked.

Jeremy
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john beardsworth

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1039 on: January 25, 2017, 02:57:30 pm »

Fintan O’Toole: Brexit resurrects the English cult of heroic failure

Yes, not sure if it's the Charge of the Light Brigade or the Dunkirk spirit or a mix of both. A right fxxxing mess indeed.
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