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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 341729 times)

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1000 on: December 14, 2016, 01:22:35 pm »

Rob,

You're too pessimistic. The fun has only just begun and we're nowhere nearer to EU exit than the NHS is better off by 350 million a week. Supreme Court has come and gone and now we wait for January ...

Last week AA Gill passed away from cancer at the age of 62. Among the many tributes and obituaries, an Irish Law firm published one of his pre-referendum articles  (http://dndlaw.com/aa-gill-on-brexit/).
Reproduced below for posterity ...

I used to buy the Sunday Times every week over many years; I loved AA Gill and often wondered who "the blonde" really was; his death has been a deep blow to journalism of a certain kind.

Regarding the article - he's right; the reason so many oldies may have voted to leave is inextricably linked, not just to jingoistic mindsets as he describes, but also to the almost constant undercurrent of generational, leftist belief. We may have elected a Conservative government, but my bet is that it happened not because of any widespread love of the party, but simply because even a blind Trot must have seen the mess that leftist governance took us into up to our necks. Even a red-under-the-bed wants to eat! So then, come the opportunity to hit a Tory leader on the nose, then the same old buggers from the dead zones of dead industries take it, regardless of the consequences which they hope they are too old ever to see.

But then, so many of the young voters didn't do what they were entitled to do: they sat at home playing with themselves, their cellphones and sexting. Reaping, sowing...

I am so sorry for my own kids and grandkids who, having worked their butts off to get into university, study languages and other disciplines, now realise the freedom to work abroad without having to ask permission first is no longer theirs, turning much of that effort, predicated upon those beliefs, into a mockery.

Another victory for the LCD in all levels of society.

Rob

mecrox

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1001 on: December 15, 2016, 11:58:37 am »

Rob,

You're too pessimistic. The fun has only just begun and we're nowhere nearer to EU exit than the NHS is better off by 350 million a week. Supreme Court has come and gone and now we wait for January ...

Last week AA Gill passed away from cancer at the age of 62. Among the many tributes and obituaries, an Irish Law firm published one of his pre-referendum articles  (http://dndlaw.com/aa-gill-on-brexit/).
Reproduced below for posterity ...

It's a great article with his witty, sparky trademark turn of phrase, but it only tells part of the story and there is the problem. People voted Leave for a vast range of reasons some of which had little to do with "Europe" and much more to do with dislike of being pushed around by bossy metropolitan elites and their endless agendas. The arrogant, complacent twit Cameron was their perfect embodiment. Then there is the small matter of the EU's catastrophic economic record which has stolen the lifechances of millions and millions of younger people in Southern Europe who have little to look forward to beyond constant unemployment, in a "bloc" in a state of perpetual turmoil because the EU is apparently incapable of securing its borders or orchestrating an orderly writedown of its bad banking debt. In some ways the remarkable thing is that Remain got as much as 48 per cent.

I still agree with almost everything AA Gill wrote and consider myself firmly European. I spent three years living in France and loved it. France, Spain and Italy have given me many of the great experiences of my life. But looking at the other side, the economic disasters, the foreign policy, the chicanery and democratic deficit of the EU apparatus itself, well I am conflicted.

See how difficult this is? There is nothing simple about it even from person to person. And there will be nothing simple about the UK leaving or about what happens next. The people in charge of all this, on both sides, are about as low-grade as they come, imho. I don't think one can say much more than that the whole thing is a total mess and the actors involved will almost certainly make it worse. The mostly likely outcome, imho, is that we'll end up with something very like what there was before with the deckchairs and nameplates moved around a bit. Alas, they will still all be on the deck of a ship called Titanic ...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:22:12 pm by mecrox »
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1002 on: December 15, 2016, 04:39:41 pm »

It's a great article with his witty, sparky trademark turn of phrase, but it only tells part of the story and there is the problem. People voted Leave for a vast range of reasons some of which had little to do with "Europe" and much more to do with dislike of being pushed around by bossy metropolitan elites and their endless agendas. The arrogant, complacent twit Cameron was their perfect embodiment. Then there is the small matter of the EU's catastrophic economic record which has stolen the lifechances of millions and millions of younger people in Southern Europe who have little to look forward to beyond constant unemployment, in a "bloc" in a state of perpetual turmoil because the EU is apparently incapable of securing its borders or orchestrating an orderly writedown of its bad banking debt. In some ways the remarkable thing is that Remain got as much as 48 per cent.

I still agree with almost everything AA Gill wrote and consider myself firmly European. I spent three years living in France and loved it. France, Spain and Italy have given me many of the great experiences of my life. But looking at the other side, the economic disasters, the foreign policy, the chicanery and democratic deficit of the EU apparatus itself, well I am conflicted.

See how difficult this is? There is nothing simple about it even from person to person. And there will be nothing simple about the UK leaving or about what happens next. The people in charge of all this, on both sides, are about as low-grade as they come, imho. I don't think one can say much more than that the whole thing is a total mess and the actors involved will almost certainly make it worse. The mostly likely outcome, imho, is that we'll end up with something very like what there was before with the deckchairs and nameplates moved around a bit. Alas, they will still all be on the deck of a ship called Titanic ...

"dislike of being pushed around by bossy metropolitan elites and their endless agendas. The arrogant, complacent twit Cameron was their perfect embodiment."

Well, that's strange, somebody has to run the show, and Cameron did it rather well for quite a while. His problem was ever letting a referendum happen. He should, and could, have fudged his way out of it, as all politicos have to do at one time or another. He simply had too much faith in common common sense, which is really rather rare and not very common at all.

"millions and millions of younger people in Southern Europe who have little to look forward to beyond constant unemployment, in a "bloc" in a state of perpetual turmoil because the EU is apparently incapable of securing its borders or orchestrating an orderly writedown of its bad banking debt."

That's an extreme example of conflation! Southern Europe has been a basket case for centuries. France, until the early part of the last century, didn't exist below Paris! It was the politically neglected empty quarter. It was the British and Russian aristocracy, followed by the American version that created southern France and the eventual wealth of the Riviera; Italy was a collection of sparring states until the end of the nineteenth century when it was united into a country (there wasn't even a truly common language), and even today, the north hates the slothful south which it knows it keeps afloat, just as does much of Catalonia in the north want to free itself of the great southern wodge of Spain that it feels it finances. And again, language and culture plays a huge part right there.

The problems of unemployment in southern Europe pre-date the present European Community by a helluva long time, and owe themselves to climate, religion, gangsterism and lack of education and hope.

It's unlkely that the European Union was ever going to solve any of that: it's a southern problem too endemic and regional to permit that to happen.

And yet, we, as Britain, were able to use it (the European connection) to our commercial advantage: just think the City; our mostly foreign-owned car businesses here because they could depend on our fiscal and governmental probity regarding investment, and easy access to the greater continent from that safe base. How long will we continue to be able to play in the aircraft business? And ironically, we had all of that and didn't even need to share in the problems of the euro! Now we have a screwed pound that was once pretty good to hold. Muchas effin gracias! All it does now is fuel the sales of the over-a-million quid Balearic properties as refuge from holding it.

As for borders - we'd already opened the gates to India, Pakistan and the Caribbean shortly after the end of WW2. United Europe brought little new into Britain, other than people willing to do work Brits rather remain unemployed than do. What's the choice: keep those Europeans out and have nobody work the harvests and hotels, even greater problems of staff shortages in the National Health system? Some great minds come here from far-flung countries; we are crazy to try to keep them away because of colour or faith.

Gill was right: jingoism, pure, blind and simple.

Or so I read it.

Rob
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 04:47:06 pm by Rob C »
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mecrox

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1003 on: December 15, 2016, 05:26:12 pm »

"dislike of being pushed around by bossy metropolitan elites and their endless agendas. The arrogant, complacent twit Cameron was their perfect embodiment."

Well, that's strange, somebody has to run the show, and Cameron did it rather well for quite a while. His problem was ever letting a referendum happen. He should, and could, have fudged his way out of it, as all politicos have to do at one time or another. He simply had too much faith in common common sense, which is really rather rare and not very common at all.
 
Gill was right: jingoism, pure, blind and simple.

Or so I read it.


I don't think that most people on either side read it like that here, not at all. Of course jingoism played a part in some quarters, egged on by the gutter press, but as time goes by I suspect it will become clear that it played a far smaller part than is supposed. Cameron's famous "renegotiation" tactic in early 2016 ended up with the EU leaders humiliating him and by proxy the British people but he just couldn't see it. Once you left London it became clear folks had a very different take on him, on his fatuous negotiation and on Europe. I spend a lot of time in one of the rougher parts of this town and there was no way the area was going to vote Remain. A friend of mine in northern England called the whole thing right well over a year before the vote. It was a classic case of a pushy, out-of-touch metropolitan elite trying to monopolise a story the silent majority thought was a lie.

Don't forget that Cameron nearly came to grief eighteen months earlier in the Scottish Independence Referendum. Very similar circumstances up against an adept grassroots movement and a very close escape. But no lessons were learned. That's why I said he was arrogant and complacent. He'd had a huge warning of how vulnerable his Westminster-centric position was but brushed it aside thinking he was smarter than that. He wasn't, and when the EU leaders made him look like a weakling then it was pretty well game over. To that extent, the EU leaders are at least as culpable for this mess.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 05:40:21 pm by mecrox »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1004 on: December 15, 2016, 11:30:16 pm »

The same silent majority voted in my America's presidential election against the elites in Washington, Hollywood, main street liberal press, etc.  There was no referendum.  If there was no referendum in GB, the same thing would happen regardless in your next election as one side would have come out for Brexit and they would win.  You'll find out if the British Supreme Court rules against the referendum and requires parliament to vote on it to make it law.  You'll have an election where one side will come out for Brexit and they will win. 


The tide has changes in both countries and will change in other EU countries as well.  In a democracy, the power of the "deplorables" will not be denied. 

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1005 on: December 16, 2016, 05:07:00 am »

the same thing would happen regardless in your next election as one side would have come out for Brexit and they would win.
There have been anti-EU candidates in British elections for decades. A minority that won't see the advantages of EU membership have been around since the day we joined.
The routine democratic process has continually elected parties that support the EU since we joined.
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Manoli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1006 on: December 16, 2016, 05:42:46 am »

You'll find out if the British Supreme Court rules against the referendum

The Court isn't ruling either for or against the referendum as the President made clear both in his opening and closing addresses. The Court is ruling as to HOW to effect the outcome of the referendum in accordance with the UK constitution.

So, in all probability, the court will deny a single minister the right to 'push the button' on an event which will remove rights from its citizens without Parliamentary scrutiny and approval.

Doesn't mean it isn't going to happen - just means you gotta follow the rules.

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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1007 on: December 16, 2016, 10:24:53 am »

I just heard the new word in town (my little town, at least): Russian troll-factory.

Thinking about it, it sort of make sense: if you create 'news' meyhem in the West, then it becomes relatively easy to ruin it when it isn't looking anywhere but up its own ass. Just look at some of the nonsense that has been written here on a variety of political issues and you can begin to see a pattern emerge, its efficacy based on the number of times misinformation is repeated. Basic soap powder marketing.

;-(

Rob

scyth

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1008 on: December 16, 2016, 11:52:56 am »

I just heard the new word in town (my little town, at least): Russian troll-factory.

you mean Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty probably :) ... an army of trolls paid by the folks that have a long history of overthrowing legitimate gov'ts abroad and killing elected leaders...
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scyth

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1009 on: December 16, 2016, 11:54:45 am »

The same silent majority voted in my America's presidential election

not sure about the majority, but we are in the key (for the matter) states :-) ...
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1010 on: December 16, 2016, 02:53:11 pm »

I just heard the new word in town (my little town, at least): Russian troll-factory...

Actually, 80% of all fake news come from a little town in Macedonia (the Former Yugoslav Republic of), by some entrepreneurial teenagers, who realized that the ad revenue thus generated is far better than a college degree. I am surprised that we have not accused the government of Macedonia too of "stealing" our election  ;)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 02:57:19 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1011 on: December 16, 2016, 03:24:24 pm »

The same silent majority voted in my America's presidential election against the elites in Washington, Hollywood, main street liberal press, etc.  There was no referendum.  If there was no referendum in GB, the same thing would happen regardless in your next election as one side would have come out for Brexit and they would win.  You'll find out if the British Supreme Court rules against the referendum and requires parliament to vote on it to make it law.  You'll have an election where one side will come out for Brexit and they will win.

So the "billionaire" Trump and his Goldman-Sachs and oil company ex-CEO buddies in cabinet are not part of the elite? What is this, Newspeak?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1012 on: December 16, 2016, 04:24:57 pm »

So the "billionaire" Trump and his Goldman-Sachs and oil company ex-CEO buddies in cabinet are not part of the elite? What is this, Newspeak?

That would be "outsiders" elite ;)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1013 on: December 16, 2016, 10:24:39 pm »

That would be "outsiders" elite ;)

Hi Slobodan,

If you mean that the billionaires elite, who prospered (perhaps) despite the (2008-) economic crisis they (or some of them) themselves helped to cause, versus the seasoned political elite, then yes they could be labeled as 'outsiders'.

That's not to suggest that the 'vested' political elite would be the best way forward, but the alternative, geez, that's a whole, well, different gamble, isn't it?

Cheers,
Bart
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1014 on: December 17, 2016, 02:00:58 am »

So yesterday the Mariposa Sheriffs department released this NEW independant Forensic level testing. Worth a look at
(full version is on the Sheriffs facebook page. It was hard finding it on Youtube, so this is the longest I found).
Interestingly he refutes with no questions regarding an independent Italian police training organization that trains EU forensic departments.
But goes on the entire time about old news about hacking which was mentioned weeks ago. Taiwan has had this China division idea for a long time now, nothing new. Syria Assad? That's supposed to be new?
Partisan division? That has been his issue since he was running.

Well, make of it what you will. But here is some very damaging evidence that I was disappointed seeing, but somehow was not shocked.
https://youtu.be/yuhF-Ok3djI

Then this interview with a British lord on world leaders was interesting as well...
https://youtu.be/SbjItdIUDMo
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 03:31:01 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1015 on: December 17, 2016, 03:23:48 am »

Then this interview with a British lord
Just a nutter who doesn't understand.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1016 on: December 17, 2016, 04:52:19 am »

So yesterday the Mariposa Sheriffs department released this NEW independant Forensic level testing. Worth a look at
(full version is on the Sheriffs facebook page. It was hard finding it on Youtube, so this is the longest I found).
Interestingly he refutes with no questions regarding an independent Italian police training organization that trains EU forensic departments.
But goes on the entire time about old news about hacking which was mentioned weeks ago. Taiwan has had this China division idea for a long time now, nothing new. Syria Assad? That's supposed to be new?
Partisan division? That has been his issue since he was running.

Well, make of it what you will. But here is some very damaging evidence that I was disappointed seeing, but somehow was not shocked.
https://youtu.be/yuhF-Ok3djI

Then this interview with a British lord on world leaders was interesting as well...
https://youtu.be/SbjItdIUDMo


I'm afraid the first link has sound that I can't hear well enough to keep continuity, so had to abandon ship.

The second one: well, inbreeding, pomposity and pig-ignorance sometimes run hand in glove. The guy's presence makes him look so smug in having to deal with these poor transatlantic cousins... Anyway, the moment he admits being in love with Mr Lafarge is time to remove him from my world. The admitted lies and misinformation that man and his group put out should bar him from public life at a stroke! Indeed, he did announce his resignation at once, the moment he had the vote go his way, but was he being serious? I think not: I believe that he knows full well that the party he has been leading has no substance at the top, and that the series of short-lived appointments as leaders after him serve only to make him, Mr Lafarge, look ever more indispensible. Clever move.

Again, AA Gill nailed it.

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1017 on: December 17, 2016, 08:26:11 am »

Robert,  It's not a matter of elite, it's a matter of policies and experience.  Trump and the seasoned business people and CEOs he selected for his cabinet want to lower taxes and do away with strangulating regulations to allow the free market to work better. He intends to use the power of his office and Congress to insure fairer trade.  If he succeeds, the regular people who are giving him a chance instead of 4 more years of the same will benefit.  Then, he and the Republican party will grow stronger.  If he fails then the Republicans will lose the Congress in 2018 and he'll lose re-election in 2020.  Time will tell. 

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1018 on: December 17, 2016, 09:06:19 am »

Robert,  It's not a matter of elite, it's a matter of policies and experience.  Trump and the seasoned business people and CEOs he selected for his cabinet want to lower taxes and do away with strangulating regulations to allow the free market to work better. He intends to use the power of his office and Congress to insure fairer trade.  If he succeeds, the regular people who are giving him a chance instead of 4 more years of the same will benefit.  Then, he and the Republican party will grow stronger.  If he fails then the Republicans will lose the Congress in 2018 and he'll lose re-election in 2020.  Time will tell.

"want to lower taxes and do away with strangulating regulations"

Of course one wants to lower taxes when one is earning millions; why pay more than you have to pay?

"to allow the free market to work better."

Whose free market, his and his buddies, or that of the general schmuch with the corner shop or the little farmer producing eggs? Anyone still seriously believe they count in policy decisions?

"the regular people who are giving him a chance instead of 4 more years of the same will benefit."

Who and what are regular people? Can you spot them by the elephant or the donkey? I've read of lots of elephants in a room, but not often about donkeys in them, but perhaps that's just a detail? Both seem to be as disenfranchised as the other at the prole level of life, if that's the other definition of 'regular' people. Trouble with broad definitions is that the exceptions across definitions can be so huge as to render definitions irrelevant.

You can bet your ass that at the end of it, T-Rex will come out a lot richer than he went in. Every leader has discovered the secret of making that happen; I think they leave notes in the White House drawers... They certainly do in Downing Street!

As in the song: it's hard going in but easy going out.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1019 on: December 17, 2016, 09:54:50 am »

Rob C:  I was addressing my response to Robert's post, not yours. 

Regarding your post, you're not correct in thinking that what's good for business is not good for workers.  If businesses do good and grow, then there are more jobs, and better paying jobs.  For "regular" people.  You're just being cute.  People understand what I'm talking about.  And the people who voted for Trump understand he's a billionaire.  They don't care.  They voted for an outsider hoping he'll keep his word and do good by them.  If he doesn't, then he won't get re-elected.  No one thinks Hillary, the classic self-absorbed insider,  cares a hoot and would do anything to help the economy. 
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