Brexit

[hjulenissen]

That strikes me as being somewhat defeatist and condones bullying. If you are going to accept the use of aggression to further ones interests then why not let us have WW III right now so we can sort it all out for another 60 years?

Acknowledging that bullying exists is far from condoning it. If there was no bullying, why would we need NATO to defend ourselves or WTO to regulate free trade or the UN? We could all just go about our happy lives with no army.

There seems to be very little in the way of idealism in the way that national states interact with each other. "We more money than you, you do as we say". "We more army than you, you give us territory". So perhaps watching the British "The Iraq War" documentary yesterday has made me even more of a cynic than I tend to be:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b021v4cg

As small states we rely on teaming up with other states, hoping that the people of free states are willing to vote for sensible people as their leaders and hoping that large, non-free states don't bother us. On a positive note, I think that there is some empiric evidence that democracy and free trade in itself tends to make national states more dependent on each other, and less physical bullying. They might still be bullies in other ways, though (do as we say, or your fresh Salmon will have to wait for, say, 2 weeks at the border while our food inspectors does some "urgent investigation").

-h

[Rob C]

Interestingly, it would appear that having a good educaton, being plugged into the corridors of power, is of itself, not a good idea anymore.

Theresa May is currently having to stress her less 'privileged' background than competitor Boris's - not such exclusive school! - in order to catch some dumb advantage in voter appeal when she makes her pitch for Conservative leadership.

(It now appears de rigueur to appear less well-bred, to come from a less internationally experienced, less travelled background. Wow. The dumber the better! I am considering sending in my postal application for the job. Watch this space: I might be selling indulgences any day soon. Well, as politicians now think it cool to go to business without displaying at least the basic respect for their post, if not their peers, by wearing a suit and at least a tie, I should go down well with my crumpled jeans and unironed T-shirts!)

Had I still a vote, I'd far rather vote for a woman. Testosterone, you see: it makes jackasses of us all until we lose most of it, and come to our more rational senses. Even more importantly, it has struck me throughout my life that women have far cleared mental eyes: they almost instantly separate the important from the crap. Which of course, explains why so few women post here, and those that did eventually resign is despair, realising that Mother was right all along.

Rob

[Ray]

Thank God I'm Australian, living on 5 acres, surrounded by wallabies and colourful parrots. Life is beautiful! 

[Rob C]

Thank God I'm Australian, living on 5 acres, surrounded by wallabies and colourful parrots. Life is beautiful! 

Until you think about rabies and bird 'flu. I won't mention brown snakes and killer spiders, of course.

Have a good day! Watch where you tread, and look under the toilet seat!

;-)

Rob

[stamper]

Thank God I'm Australian, living on 5 acres, surrounded by wallabies and colourful parrots. Life is beautiful! 

Is this a precursor for the soap box to be mounted and your opinion about Brexit to be aired? Another Australian member was unhappy that the UK joined the EU and more or less stopped trading with Australia. God forbid that happening. Later on today I will be drinking a nice red wine from Australia called the Wrong Un. There are a few others I enjoy.

[Justinr]

Thank God I'm Australian, living on 5 acres, surrounded by wallabies and colourful parrots. Life is beautiful! 

Australia and NZ are talking about a joint trade agreement with the UK and NZ has even offered to lend Britain 20 trade negotiators to help sort out out the small print of a UK outside of the EU.

[pegelli]

Boris just chickened out, so much for taking responsibility for your own actions 

[Paulo Bizarro]

After all the hullaballoo, things will settle down. In the meantime, a few politicians will try to save face, pretending they are really important state persons... this is what saddens me the most today: low level and low class politicians deciding important issues like these, without any firm commitments and long term vision, just changing opinions as the wind changes...

[Rob C]

Haven't checked out Boris's latest turn, too busy doing important things like lunching in cheap bars and helping to keep LuLa viable, after which I shall take a further journey into inner space as I unseal the marine varnish and launch another (possibly brief) attack on the ever-waiting shutters outside the french windows. They taunt me every year, a bit like that Forth Road Bridge. I don't, of course, feel any sense of responsibility whatsoever towards the Bridge, but I do for the shutters. True love-hate.

I'm looking forward to hearing about Kiwi bikers helping out UK diplomats!

Rob C

[PeterAit]

What really gets me about the Brexit thing is the look it gives us at voters. I have read widely about this referendum and three things stick in my mind:

1) One interviewed "leave" voter was quoted as saying that she voted to leave without actually looking into the issues.

2) Another interviewed "leave" voter was quoted as saying that he supported staying in the EU but voted to leave because he didn't think his vote would make a difference.

Sigh. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst for of government except for all the others.

[Justinr]

What really gets me about the Brexit thing is the look it gives us at voters. I have read widely about this referendum and three things stick in my mind:

1) One interviewed "leave" voter was quoted as saying that she voted to leave without actually looking into the issues.

2) Another interviewed "leave" voter was quoted as saying that he supported staying in the EU but voted to leave because he didn't think his vote would make a difference.

Sigh. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst for of government except for all the others.

Who did the interviewing?

Picking people out from the crowd may not be as random a process as broadcasters would have us believe and the BBC is heavily pro-establishment.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... low level and low class politicians deciding important issues like these...

I would say it was the people of the U.K. who decided this particular important issue.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... 1) One interviewed "leave" voter was quoted as saying that she voted to leave without actually looking into the issues...

So?

Or is the above indignation just another way of saying that only highly educated should be allowed to vote?

Come to think of it, if we allow only highly educated to vote, there would be no need to vote at all, as we all know that, once you are highly educated, you'd reach the same conclusion as the next highly educated guy.

[Paulo Bizarro]

I would say it was the people of the U.K. who decided this particular important issue.

Well, I would argue that the decision to have the referendum was not made by the people, but my Mr. Cameron, in order to appease the right wing folks from his party. Also the promise to hold a referendum helped him to win the 2015 election. So, an example of a politician whose long term vision is non-existent, as he was only concerned in saving himself.

It is interesting to note that on the occasion of the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, which furthered integration and paved the way for the Euro, john Major said that the treaty would lead to national (UK) suicide... eurocepticism in the UK is nothing new.

[Rob C]

What really gets me about the Brexit thing is the look it gives us at voters. I have read widely about this referendum and three things stick in my mind:

1) One interviewed "leave" voter was quoted as saying that she voted to leave without actually looking into the issues.

2) Another interviewed "leave" voter was quoted as saying that he supported staying in the EU but voted to leave because he didn't think his vote would make a difference.

Sigh. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst for of government except for all the others.

Thing is, democracy is as Winston pronounced, but the error was to have a referendum, which isn't about democracy but about rabble-rousing chat in bars and, if there are any left, factories. It's not the same as general elections at all, the latter being easier on the intellect because they depend more on conditioning reflexes to kick in and do their duty. The subject matter is also more easily understood and localized, little to do with 'foreigners' and their ungodly effect upon the sacred land of birth (the voter's). In other words, they (results) are more broadly dependable. Of course, there's some mileage in my own view, which is that the bookies took a sizeable hit, and I wonder how much of an influence betting was... ;-)

Boris. Perhaps he just did the honourable thing, because I don't think he ever pretened to have had the governmental experience one would expect, and I would think essential for anyone hoping to become a valid PM.

There's also the distinct possibility that he was simply used: front man to exite the troops, but not ever to occupy the seat of power.

I have a sneaking suspìcion that something similar may be at play across the Puddle: Trump is a Mk 3 clone of Boris; I can't imagine him sitting in the Oval Office and I wouldn't be at all surprised that it will never happen. The party may even win the election, but I doubt it'll be Mr T gets to occupy the seat. Things happen in America; Bobbie, Jack... Sicily comes to mind yet again. Power and money are ruthless.

Rob

[scyth]

Boris just chickened out, so much for taking responsibility for your own actions 

or it was a calculated decision to let somebody else take the poinsoned chalice...

[Rob C]

So?

Or is the above indignation just another way of saying that only highly educated should be allowed to vote?

Come to think of it, if we allow only highly educated to vote, there would be no need to vote at all, as we all know that, once you are highly educated, you'd reach the same conclusion as the next highly educated guy.

Now that's raising the bar too high.

There should be an at least basic literacy level, and people without the land's native language should not be permitted to decide its future.

I'm not sure how Britain handles these specific voting rights, but in Spain, foreign residents can vote in local elections but not in general elections. IMO, even that's a granting too far. If you wish to vote, then you should elect to obtain nationality, at which point the election results you crave will at least have an impact on your own foreseeable, permanent future.

Rob

[Rob C]

or it was a calculated decision to let somebody else take the poinsoned chalice...

It may turn out not even to be that: it could be the start of a general awakening within Europe that something needs to be done to fix it. Seems to me that the Common Market is still a desired concept within the grouping, but that the federalist concept is taking it outwith the space many ever wanted to enter.

Elected or otherwise, people in places of high power and high salary are not going to let go easily. Listening to Mr Tusk yesterday I came to the conlusion that he needs somebody else to speak his English for him: he comes over as a WW2 personality still at war. An unfortunate diction (in English) that gives a very unhappy message, quite apart from whatever the mouth is actually saying. And really, it's what's happening within UK politics too: all manner of class messages are leaping about in the air, completely obscuring the more basic reality which is that we all need to coexist because, like each other or not, we depend upon one another.

[Justinr]

Now that's raising the bar too high.

There should be an at least basic literacy level, and people without the land's native language should not be permitted to decide its future.

I'm not sure how Britain handles these specific voting rights, but in Spain, foreign residents can vote in local elections but not in general elections. IMO, even that's a granting too far. If you wish to vote, then you should elect to obtain nationality, at which point the election results you crave will at least have an impact on your own foreseeable, permanent future.

Rob

But then again if you are taking an active part and contributing to society then why shouldn't you have the vote? No taxation without representation was once the call.

[Jeremy Roussak]

My comment was solely in regard to Article 50. Briefly stated, there is a very strong argument that the Prime Minister cannot invoke Article 50 without express Parliamentary approval.

Which is exactly what I wrote:

The second is the mechanism by which notice to leave under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is triggered. There's a very good argument that such notice impliedly repeals earlier legislation, including the 1972 Act, and that that is something which only Parliament, and not the Executive alone, can do. FWIW, I think it's probably right. Nevertheless, the idea that Parliament would ignore the result of the referendum it called, while certainly possible, strikes me as utterly absurd.

What's your point?

Jeremy