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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 342774 times)

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #300 on: June 29, 2016, 11:33:27 am »

My point Rob was that where is all the money going to come from to bail countries out?  Germans and other citizens won't put up with it.  Nationalism will kick in if just for economic reasons.

Important to remember that the bailouts were not gifts, they were loans to pay off other debts. As one of the lenders Germany will be fine, we can rest assured of that.
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Hulyss

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #301 on: June 29, 2016, 11:35:11 am »

But, in the end, it's history: Hadrian built a wall to keep out Rangers and Celtic and now, a couple of thousand years later, the same teams are trying to lock themselves back in, in order to break out, in order to stay locked in somewhere else.

I would like the Hadrian wall to be rebuilt !
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #302 on: June 29, 2016, 11:53:53 am »

Indeed it was.

Yes - we were out when the match was played and so just saw the highlights later on.  After five minutes I thought the game would go one-way, and then came Iceland's two goals........

Bring on the Tour de France - at least we Brits can do that well (at last).

Jim
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #303 on: June 29, 2016, 12:18:37 pm »

I would like the Hadrian wall to be rebuilt !

It's more a question of repair and to some it has never disappeared.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #304 on: June 29, 2016, 01:17:25 pm »

Are you suggesting that anyone from the 28 EU countries can immigrate to Switzerland?
I don't know what the regs are but Switzerland has a significant immigrant population (22.8% in 2011 which is the most recent statistic I've seen).  I've been watching the Euro football (soccer) championships and the Swiss team has fair number of players whose parents were not born in Switzerland.
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Hulyss

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #305 on: June 29, 2016, 02:18:39 pm »

It's more a question of repair and to some it has never disappeared.

I want it repaired as the original ! Should be a major achievement and a super tourist heaven.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #306 on: June 29, 2016, 02:29:26 pm »

I want it repaired as the original ! Should be a major achievement and a super tourist heaven.

Talking of which will I need a landing craft and naval bombardment to get ashore at Le'Havre?  ;D
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #307 on: June 29, 2016, 02:32:43 pm »

My point Rob was that where is all the money going to come from to bail countries out?  Germans and other citizens won't put up with it.  Nationalism will kick in if just for economic reasons.


I have a sneaking suspicion that the money lent out doesn't really exist in the first place. I feel it's quite likely that the entire thing is a mirror of the banking scams pre-2008, where one set of dealers and insurers gave credits to the next set of dealers and subsequent insurers up the pyramid until one defaulted (the sub-primes) and the whole friggin' game was over. But in reality, those bank notes that exist always exist unless they are physically destroyed, so only money that is actually a fantasy gets 'lost', which I think is the same money being lent across southern Europe.

Hence gold and van Gogh.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #308 on: June 29, 2016, 02:38:52 pm »

I want it repaired as the original ! Should be a major achievement and a super tourist heaven.


Then you'd need to import Chinese labourers to do it properly, which, at the moment, might be embarrassingly difficult to arrange.

Would you settle for a dry replica of the Giant's Causeway instead?

Rob

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #309 on: June 29, 2016, 02:40:45 pm »


I have a sneaking suspicion that the money lent out doesn't really exist in the first place. I feel it's quite likely that the entire thing is a mirror of the banking scams pre-2008, where one set of dealers and insurers gave credits to the next set of dealers and subsequent insurers up the pyramid until one defaulted (the sub-primes) and the whole friggin' game was over. But in reality, those bank notes that exist always exist unless they are physically destroyed, so only money that is actually a fantasy gets 'lost', which I think is the same money being lent across southern Europe.

Hence gold and van Gogh.

That is exactly what is is, quantitative easing and all that.
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Hulyss

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #310 on: June 29, 2016, 02:53:12 pm »

I just love what men was able to build back in the days... now we are pussys.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #311 on: June 29, 2016, 03:15:38 pm »

You are factually incorrect. The petition wasn't started by the Remain campaign, but rather by a supporter of the Leave side, well before the Referendum. It's significance isn't as part of the current political process, but more an indicator of an ever rising groundswell of dissent - and something Parliament is taking note of.

In what sense am I factually incorrect? It doesn't matter who started the damn thing: it had acquired, I think, 22 signatures before the referendum result was made known and it now has a few more. I doubt that many of the new ones are from those who wish us to leave.

No-one suggested that Parliament 'ignore' the nation's wishes.

The referendum was purely advisory - it has no legal status. Consequently, Parliament should and will review the result of the referendum in the context of the nation's wider interests - at the appropriate time. And that is what Cameron, I believe, is doing.

Again, I'm aware of that. Not following a majority view in a referendum which called for exactly that is to ignore it.

Voting Leave in an advisory referendum because one wishes our Parliament to be Sovereign yet protesting when only Parliament can “decide” to leave the EU strikes me, to phrase it diplomatically, as being somewhat contradictory.

Why? Parliament asked; parliament has the answer. Parliament can choose to heed the answer it has received or, probably, suffer the consequences.

I have read differing opinions on this. There is little, if anything, that can be 'implied'.

On the contrary: the concept of implication is deeply embedded into many areas of English law.

Jeremy
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #312 on: June 29, 2016, 04:22:34 pm »

Why on Earth do you think people "rely on press from the country they now live in"? Why do you think I do not read The Guardian, for instance?

It's 21th century, stamper; time to adjust some assumptions.

If nothing else we can be certain that the BBC is just a tool of the government, can anybody honestly claim they were impartial and balanced both during and after the campaign?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 04:53:11 pm by Justinr »
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FabienP

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #313 on: June 29, 2016, 05:47:48 pm »

Fair enough. I appreciate the factual support for your earlier claim.

However, there is a catch:

"...a residence permit will only be issued if you have a valid employment contract..."

In other words, it seems more geared toward professional positions in high demand (or moving within the same company), than a genuine immigration.

It did however have a markedly negative impact on wages in some sectors of the economy and boosted housing prices. Many Germans have been seeking jobs in Switzerland in the last decade as a consequence of this agreement with the EU. They were fleeing the consequences of the "Hartz" austerity plans under the Schröder government.

You are right to say that they are seldom true immigrants: many of them are weekly commuters and have kept their houses in Germany. It is likely that they will return to their country when it will be time for retirement or when they lose their jobs and cannot remain.

On a related note, immigration issues (in the UK) are less contentious concerning EU citizens, it's all the others. Especially with Merkel imposing refugee quotas on member states (which Swiss are spared from).

As a signatory of the Schengen agreements, Switzerland also has to assume its share of quotas. However, like many other taylored deals with EU states, conditions are better than what ordinary members have as part of current treaties.

The reason for those deals was that Brussels thought they could entice Switzerland in joining the EU with attractive transitional deals. Once we understood that things could only get worse from there on, we stopped any further movement towards getting full membership and we kept the better deals.

As it has been pointed out in the thread above, those special conditions are unlikely to last since Switzerland wants to repell the Free Movement of Persons Agreement with the EU. That was our Brexit moment, it happened 18 months ago in a narrow win referendum (50,34%) against the will of the government (does that sound familiar?).

In a similar fashion to the British government now, the Swiss government has yet to formally trigger the end of the agreement. That, however, did not stop the EU from unilaterally expelling us from several programmes which have not been formally invalidated and were funded by both parties.

While it remains to be seen how the EU will treat Britain after the Brexit vote, this previous experience with Switzerland leads me to think that the non-activation of article 50 by the British government will not change anything. Britain will be forced out of the EU. Several German politicians have hinted that this will be the case even if Cameron or his successor leave things in their present state.

Cheers,

Fabien
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hjulenissen

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #314 on: June 30, 2016, 01:36:30 am »


Isn't the EU being just such a bully itself?
The EU is a bully. The US is a bully. Russia and China certainly are bullies. The question is what bully should you keep close in order to keep the other bullies away.

Reminds me of prison movies where the hero is thrown (innocent) into prison and have to decide what gang of bullies to join in order to not be harassed by them all.

-h
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 01:45:01 am by hjulenissen »
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hjulenissen

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #315 on: June 30, 2016, 01:43:22 am »

My point Rob was that where is all the money going to come from to bail countries out?  Germans and other citizens won't put up with it.  Nationalism will kick in if just for economic reasons.
So what happens in the US if one state cannot pay their bills? Do the other states try to throw them out?

This discussion mirrors the split of power between our national leadership and our municipalities. The regions have different economic situations. So how do you strive for global optimization while allowing the sub-components to do their local optimization?


I believe that you cannot have a 50% love affair. Either you go all-in, or you go out. Perhaps it is the same with these "super-state" constructs. Either the EU (like Russia and the US) take political control of the states, they (hopefully) get a (directly) democratically elected leadership, a common currency, and the human tendency towards nationalism is directed towards the EU-state. Then one might hope/think that the members would "put up with" regions needing their support. Or they give up the project.

My own state was fairly recently (on a historical timescale) rebuilt as a state after being controlled by Denmark and Sweden for a long time.

I believe that it was partially a political thing:
 Choose a form of government and a king that would reduce the risk that our neighbours would invade

Partially a cultural thing:
 Seek out our heritage, music and painting based on peasants and nature that was uniquely "Norwegian". Construct the idea of the Norwegian as a descendent of the Vikings, tough people living in the mountains of the food that they could farm or hunt with their bare hands. Not unlike the US idea of the western frontiers? Obviously, this was to boost the pride in being us, make us unified, at the expense of "the others". Good old nationalism/chauvinism, I guess.

-h
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 02:07:51 am by hjulenissen »
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Manoli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #316 on: June 30, 2016, 02:11:39 am »

On the contrary: the concept of implication is deeply embedded into many areas of English law.

My comment was solely in regard to Article 50. Briefly stated, there is a very strong argument that the Prime Minister cannot invoke Article 50 without express Parliamentary approval.

Manoli
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stamper

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #317 on: June 30, 2016, 03:22:44 am »

Why on Earth do you think people "rely on press from the country they now live in"? Why do you think I do not read The Guardian, for instance?

It's 21th century, stamper; time to adjust some assumptions.


Looking at some of your posts I don't think you have got by the headlines? ;)

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #318 on: June 30, 2016, 03:27:29 am »

The EU is a bully. The US is a bully. Russia and China certainly are bullies. The question is what bully should you keep close in order to keep the other bullies away.

Reminds me of prison movies where the hero is thrown (innocent) into prison and have to decide what gang of bullies to join in order to not be harassed by them all.

-h

That strikes me as being somewhat defeatist and condones bullying. If you are going to accept the use of aggression to further ones interests then why not let us have WW III right now so we can sort it all out for another 60 years?
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Zorki5

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #319 on: June 30, 2016, 03:46:03 am »

Looking at some of your posts I don't think you have got by the headlines? ;)

Hmmm... Interesting. Which ones? Can you please give an example?
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