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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 289512 times)

Manoli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2016, 06:23:28 am »

The petition I referred to earlier is now well over 1,150,000 and counting - very hard to see how this won't be debated in Parliament.

<
EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum. -  We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum.
>

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 06:47:35 am by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2016, 06:31:42 am »

A bit more details on how it was divided based on many attributes: Source BBC

Thanks for that link - very revealing!
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2016, 07:02:23 am »

The petition I referred to earlier is now well over 1,150,000 and counting - very hard to see how this won't be debated in Parliament.

<
EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum. -  We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum.
>

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

So it will be debated. So what? The parameters of the decision were set in the European Union Referendum Act 2015, and didn't include minimum turnout or other than a simple majority vote. The time for those criteria to be set was last year, not this: the petition is nothing more than a demand to change the rules because the result isn't as those petitioning wanted. As an example of contempt for democracy, it's hard to beat.


There's damn all point in discussing how various subgroups of people voted. You can do that after any election, and it's fruitless. There was an electorate; each member of that electorate had one vote; and the result is determined by the majority. That's it. You might wish it were otherwise, but it isn't.

Whether we should ever have been asked the question, given that we live in a representative democracy, is another matter. Many of us rather resented it.

Jeremy
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2016, 07:07:10 am »

Unlike British democracy, eh.... A majority government elected on 37% of the popular vote, a second chamber including the hereditary nobility and religious office holders, and a head of state determined by a mixture of DNA and not being the wrong religion.

The role of the head of state is purely symbolic (de facto, if not de jure). The government was elected by 37% of the vote in part because the others chose not to bother to vote at all. Systems of voting other than first-past-the-post may have more theoretical democratic credentials but (a) it's not terribly clear that they work very well and (b) we were offered a chance to change our system and we rejected it, as I recall pretty decisively.

The House of Lords is more difficult to justify, I agree. The hereditary peers and the clergy form significant but small minority of those eligible to sit. The rest are for the most part retired/failed politicians and third-rate party hacks (Warsi, for example). The idea of it as a store of knowledge, wisdom and experience fails to live up to reality.

Jeremy
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pegelli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2016, 07:08:43 am »

There was an electorate; each member of that electorate had one vote; and the result is determined by the majority.

Whether we should ever have been asked the question, given that we live in a representative democracy, is another matter. Many of us rather resented it.

Agree with you on both points Jeremy, you can't weigh the votes, not on age, years remaining life, IQ, wealth, education level or any other matter. All voters are (and should be) equal.

On your second point the only thing to realize is that the representative parliament voted to hold the referendum. Whether they did that as true believers or a cop-out so they didn't have to take their own responsibility is anybodies guess (and probably not the same for all members of parliament).
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john beardsworth

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2016, 07:17:14 am »

So as a lawyer, is de jure not relevant? The 37% is in fact the percentage of those who actually voted, and we only rejected a poor alternative to our defective electoral system. Maybe the House of Lords should be called the "council of experts" - like in Iran. The fact is, British democracy is at least as defective as the EU's.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2016, 07:44:14 am »

On your second point the only thing to realize is that the representative parliament voted to hold the referendum. Whether they did that as true believers or a cop-out so they didn't have to take their own responsibility is anybodies guess (and probably not the same for all members of parliament).

You're right, of course. On the one hand, it was an abrogation of the responsibility they as MPs had been given; on the other, the Conservative manifesto contained a commitment to have a referendum, so there was an obligation to provide it. The argument to which you allude was made in an exceptionally feeble article in The Spectator last week, quoting Burke: "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion". If his judgment is that it is best for you, not him, to make the decision, then he must follow it.

So as a lawyer, is de jure not relevant? The 37% is in fact the percentage of those who actually voted, and we only rejected a poor alternative to our defective electoral system.

It's theoretically relevant, of course, but the constitution is nothing if not pragmatic.

I was aware of the origin of your 37%; my point was that the result could easily have been different had those who didn't bother to vote made the minimal effort required.

I don't think the quality of the alternative was relevant in that referendum.  The result reflected an underlying fondness, whether rational or not, for the kind of decisive government achievable in reality only by the current system. The then coalition government was an indicator of what we were likely to have in perpetuity were we to change the system, and the prospect wasn't viewed with much affection.

The fact is, British democracy is at least as defective as the EU's.

Yes, it may be; but it's ours, just as my own photograph of a scene others have shot hundreds of times before is mine. It gives us the ability to change those who govern us. There is no perfect system.

Jeremy
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 07:48:35 am by kikashi »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2016, 07:54:45 am »

It's funny how the remain side have almost as one latched on to calling the those who voted leave stupid and uneducated.

I would appreciate if you didn't put these words in my mouth please, I said less educated, which has nothing to do with stupid and only a little to do with uneducated.

Honnestly, although we will mostly all be impacted negatively by this vote (in fact I may benefit from it personnally but that's beside the point), those living outside Britain will be a lot les than the Brits, whatever they voted for.

Cheers,
Bernard

Chairman Bill

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2016, 09:29:54 am »

In five years time, enough old xenophobes & racists will be dead, and enough pro-Europe youngsters turned adults, that any referendum would return a majority for EU membership. A couple of hard winters could hasten that change










Joking, folks. Well, half joking :-)

RSL

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2016, 09:38:34 am »

The EU won't even exist then, Bill. A wheel just came off and it's headed over the cliff.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2016, 09:47:01 am »

The EU won't even exist then, Bill. A wheel just came off and it's headed over the cliff.

I'd say that the odds that gun control is enforced in the US are higher.

For different reasons fortunately.

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #91 on: June 25, 2016, 09:48:08 am »

So it will be debated. So what?

So what ?

You're jesting no doubt , but if you're not then I suggest reading the link I posted above to the article by Jolyon Maugham QC.

And, incidentally, if you really think that "As an example of contempt for democracy, it's hard to beat" I'd suggest that you haven't looked too hard!

Given the dissatisfaction with Corbyn, the split within the Tories, disaffected Scots, Irish unrest and a polarised electorate you can't preclude any number of possible developments.
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JV

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2016, 10:09:40 am »

Luckily the £350 million EU Payments will go to NHS... oh wait, they are not....:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy-m1NSUmOY
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #93 on: June 25, 2016, 10:29:04 am »

As the numbers show they clearly weren't too concerned about that...

Thank God the older generation do appreciate democracy then and try to preserve some for the future.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2016, 10:33:08 am »

The EU won't even exist then, Bill. A wheel just came off and it's headed over the cliff.

Very true, the wheels have been wobbling for a long time now but everyone on board the gravy train has been in denial.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2016, 10:35:52 am »

Unlike British democracy, eh.... A majority government elected on 37% of the popular vote, a second chamber including the hereditary nobility and religious office holders, and a head of state determined by a mixture of DNA and not being the wrong religion.

Are you saying that just because British democracy, in fact most democracies, are flawed that we should give up on the idea altogether? What would you have in its place?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 10:48:11 am by Justinr »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2016, 10:37:44 am »

Are you saying that just because British democracy, In fact most democracies, are flawed that we should give up on the idea altogether? What would have in its place?

There is little doubt that the EU as it is today isn't democratic enough.

I genuinely believe that the Brexit will help move that topic in the right direction. This is the case for at least 2 reasons:
- The awareness of needing to change things has been increased exponentially
- The UK would have been an obstacle preventing any serious decision making

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 10:41:07 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2016, 10:46:20 am »

I would appreciate if you didn't put these words in my mouth please, I said less educated, which has nothing to do with stupid and only a little to do with uneducated.

Honnestly, although we will mostly all be impacted negatively by this vote (in fact I may benefit from it personnally but that's beside the point), those living outside Britain will be a lot les than the Brits, whatever they voted for.

Cheers,
Bernard

But the sentiment remains, you are only trying to establish the degree.  What's more it is most regretful that on other fora I drop into the very same attitude is shown by those on the remain side as they try to belittle the voters who chose to leave, accusing them of being unknowing and ignorant. I have never known such collective spite and it is indicative of an ignorance that comes not just through a lack of education but a dearth of manners and respect within the remain camp.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 11:12:45 am by Justinr »
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2016, 11:11:21 am »

A bit more details on how it was divided based on many attributes: Source BBC

It's all interesting information and tells you some stories and maybe where and how the results were achieved. But the bottom line remains the same, the majority voted out and that's what probably will happen. I only hope the the negotiators are not going to play games, if they want out it's out and no dragging of feet to "declare" article 50 later (as Boris was suggesting). That's just plain bad, especially for all the people who didn't have a vote in what's happening now.

Nothing is going to happen until the autumn when Cameron will be replaced, by then the situation will have hopefully settled and a little more sense and foresight might prevail.

The people of Britain have expressed their desire to leave the EU by a small majority, naturally this has upset those that voted to stay and their reaction has been somewhat alarming and, to my mind at least, reinforces that decision, distancing ones self from the likes of Schauble (the German Finance minister) for instance can only be a good thing.

Simply trying to rip Britain out of Europe in the quickest and messiest manner possible to teach other countries a lesson is perhaps the most stupid thing of all to do, but that is what certain politicians would seem to want. Is that the sort of proposal that you would expect from mature and educated ministers? As I have said already, now is the time for reform and compromise, it is not just Britain that is affected but the EU to, and if it wants to remain as an entity in any shape or form then it needs to go back to the drawing board and recreate itself as a club of countries enjoying free trade and travel amongst each other and not a superstate led by unaccountable commissioners and failed politicians who have been kicked upstairs. I'm all for Europe as a fraternity, but not as a remote and undemocratic empire.
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JV

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2016, 11:34:04 am »

Simply trying to rip Britain out of Europe in the quickest and messiest manner possible to teach other countries a lesson is perhaps the most stupid thing of all to do, but that is what certain politicians would seem to want.

What did you expect?  The EU wants to make the period of uncertainty for the financial markets as short as possible in its own interest but also in the interest of the whole world.

It is not the EU's fault that the Leave camp has no clue what happens next...

I'm all for Europe as a fraternity, but not as a remote and undemocratic empire.

Unanimity Voting is pretty inefficient but I would hardly call it undemocratic...
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