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Author Topic: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad  (Read 5453 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2016, 05:05:45 am »

You may want to check the MF forum, there is a 16 pages thread on-going on this.

Cheers,
Bernard

John Koerner

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2016, 01:07:40 am »

Any thoughts?

http://petapixel.com/2016/06/21/hasselblad-x1d-leaked-worlds-first-medium-format-mirrorless-camera/

Yes, absolutely wonderful.

Looks like one of the new Nikon DL Series on steroids.

Would rather wait for the Sony A7r III than jump on a $9,000 Hassy, when the Sony will probably be just as good, or better, for less than half the price.

The new Sony will also likely have 4K video, which the Hassy doesn't, which is a kick-in-the-balls at a $9000 price point for a camera, in this day and age.

Not to mention more lens choices with a Sony ...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2016, 01:17:05 am »

The new Sony will also likely have 4K video, which the Hassy doesn't, which is a kick-in-the-balls at a $9000 price point for a camera, in this day and age.

The Sony a7RIII/a9 will no doubt be a great camera, but I don't believe that the lack of video on the X1D is a problem at all for target buyers. They couldn't care less.

Cheers,
Bernard

John Koerner

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2016, 01:46:40 am »

The Sony a7RIII/a9 will no doubt be a great camera,

I am really looking forward to this, and the D900.



but I don't believe that the lack of video on the X1D is a problem at all for target buyers. They couldn't care less.

It's pretty tough for anyone to speak for a collective "they" ...

I get what you're saying; and the 3 target Hassy lenses being offered are very attractive for the light travelers who only operate within that range.

Still, if the Sony offers the same (or better) basic specs ... adds 4K video ... and has compatibility across-platform to multiple lenses ... at half the price ... it will be hard for even "they" not to second-guess spending $9000 for essentially being trapped with the Hassy's limitations, while not enjoying a single advantage over the Sony.

Jack
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2016, 02:57:32 am »

Still, if the Sony offers the same (or better) basic specs ... adds 4K video ... and has compatibility across-platform to multiple lenses ... at half the price ... it will be hard for even "they" not to second-guess spending $9000 for essentially being trapped with the Hassy's limitations, while not enjoying a single advantage over the Sony.

True, but what are the odds this happens?

The Sony semi conductor sensor division has decided to invest in the MF domain and serves Hassy, P1 and Pentax for now, possibly Fuji in a few months.

They would for sure not release themselves a MF camera featuring a better sensor (4K, on sensor AF,...) than the one you are selling to your best customers. Business in Japan just isn't done this way.

Hassy, P1 and Pentax all have pretty strong systems that appeal to various categories of MF shooters. MF remains a tiny niche and developping a new camera system probably wouldn't be a money generating venture for Sony Imaging.

Cheers,
Bernard

AlterEgo

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2016, 03:16:23 am »

They would for sure not release themselves a MF camera featuring a better sensor (4K, on sensor AF,...) than the one you are selling to your best customers. Business in Japan just isn't done this way.

by that logic nobody (Nikon, Ricoh/Pentax) wants to buy 42mp FF sensor from Sony Semi...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2016, 03:34:40 am »

by that logic nobody (Nikon, Ricoh/Pentax) wants to buy 42mp FF sensor from Sony Semi...

This is IMHO pretty different because:
- Nikon had already released the D810 nearly one year prior to the mass availability of the 42mp part,
- I guess that Pentax had based their design for the K1 on a 36mp part and elected not to change, no idea why (maybe they wanted to keep enough resolution gap with the 645Z, maybe the physical packaging of the 42mp sensor is a bit different,..),
- Sony already has a clear public roadmap for the a7 series.

Here, if Jack were right, Sony would deliver in a few months a new chip, only differing in its AF capabilities.

Anyway, I could be wrong, but I don't believe in that conspiracy theory.

Cheers,
Bernard

viewfinder

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2016, 04:56:28 am »

.....So what, then, is the feasability that a sony A7rIII will "probably be just as good, or better, for less than half the price"  of a camera with a sensor twice the size and hand assembled with Swedish angst.....??

.....Morons like me need to know!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 06:56:31 am »

Things are getting complicated aren't they! :)

Kina will transform rumors into facts... and probably open even more doors and make choices even more difficult.

I may end up sticking to my iPhone 6... or 7? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

dwswager

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2016, 08:56:09 am »

Yes, absolutely wonderful.
Would rather wait for the Sony A7r III than jump on a $9,000 Hassy, when the Sony will probably be just as good, or better, for less than half the price.


I'm not the smartest or best informed, but one is MF and the other 35mm FF...apples and oranges.   The whole point should be the larger sensor and the pixel size and optical property differences that it brings to the table.
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uaiomex

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2016, 09:24:55 am »

Apples to oranges would be comparing D35FF to D645FF. This popular sensor, popular among camera makers for cost reasons is so small that it doesn't make much difference. Yet it makes the camera cost 3 times as much.
For this reason I will wait after Kina and see. If not, Sony A7r3 or A9 will come my way.
Eduardo


I'm not the smartest or best informed, but one is MF and the other 35mm FF...apples and oranges.   The whole point should be the larger sensor and the pixel size and optical property differences that it brings to the table.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 09:30:59 am by uaiomex »
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dwswager

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2016, 10:04:31 am »

Apples to oranges would be comparing D35FF to D645FF. This popular sensor, popular among camera makers for cost reasons is so small that it doesn't make much difference. Yet it makes the camera cost 3 times as much.
For this reason I will wait after Kina and see. If not, Sony A7r3 or A9 will come my way.
Eduardo

44 x 33mm vs 36 x 24mm.  Not a huge difference.  Not my cup of tea, either. 

And Hasselblad has always been an expensive MF brand.
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AlterEgo

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2016, 11:15:41 am »

44 x 33mm vs 36 x 24mm.  Not a huge difference. 

APS-C vs FF is ~the same
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2016, 12:17:55 pm »

Lets see, the full frame shooters with personal investment bias are saying that this 44x33 is the same as full frame.  The APS-C shooters with personal investment bias are saying that APS-C is just as good as full frame.  Micro 4/3 shooters have been vocal for a long time that their format is not only as good as APS-C but is just as good as full frame.  Even some 1" sensor people claim that their format is just as good as APS-C and m43.  So, by using some mathematical theorems, specifically the one that says if A=B and B=C then A=C, we should interpret that a 1" sensor will produce image quality that is just as good as a 44x33mm pseudo medium format sensor in the X1D.

Great I got all that straight now!!!  Guess I'll go out and buy a Nikon J1, or Panasonic GH1 on the used market for $50 and produce images equal to medium format.  Man do I feel better about all of this photography stuff.  Wait, maybe my iPhone is just as good as this new Hasselblad, yeah, yeah, that's the ticket!  ;D :o ::) :P
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John Koerner

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2016, 12:49:36 pm »

Lets see, the full frame shooters with personal investment bias are saying that this 44x33 is the same as full frame.  The APS-C shooters with personal investment bias are saying that APS-C is just as good as full frame.  Micro 4/3 shooters have been vocal for a long time that their format is not only as good as APS-C but is just as good as full frame.  Even some 1" sensor people claim that their format is just as good as APS-C and m43.  So, by using some mathematical theorems, specifically the one that says if A=B and B=C then A=C, we should interpret that a 1" sensor will produce image quality that is just as good as a 44x33mm pseudo medium format sensor in the X1D.

Great I got all that straight now!!!  Guess I'll go out and buy a Nikon J1, or Panasonic GH1 on the used market for $50 and produce images equal to medium format.  Man do I feel better about all of this photography stuff.  Wait, maybe my iPhone is just as good as this new Hasselblad, yeah, yeah, that's the ticket!  ;D :o ::) :P


Good rebuttal.

I also learned, on another forum, that there is going to be development of other-lens compatibility, possibly to include Zeiss-Otus-type lenses.

If this materializes, it's going to be an awfully-tempting way to part with thousands of dollars :-X
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stevesanacore

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2016, 03:34:52 pm »

The Sony a7RIII/a9 will no doubt be a great camera, but I don't believe that the lack of video on the X1D is a problem at all for target buyers. They couldn't care less.

Cheers,
Bernard

I agree with you about the video. I shoot some video for my clients but with dedicated cameras or at the least my Sony A7's. I would not want to shoot video with a MF camera, I see no advantage to that. I do love that new design and looking forward to results.
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uaiomex

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2016, 12:10:02 am »

The same? Perhaps not quite.
24x36 is more than double the area of APS-C and costs about double. 44x33 is only 1.7 bigger than 24X36 but costs more than three times as much.
For me, 24X36 is the holy grail of digital photography.


APS-C vs FF is ~the same
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:14:01 am by uaiomex »
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shadowblade

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2016, 03:42:22 am »

It all depends on what they do with it.

In a lot of ways, MF is more suited to compact, professional-level bodies than full-frame is, since it's expected to do less things. No-one's going to be shooting fast action with MF, so it doesn't need strong AF capabilities and suffers less from viewfinder lag.

Basically, MF is restricted to shooting things that aren't moving very much or very fast. Which is still most things.

The problems, though, are lens selection and sensor size/aspect ratio.

Full-frame uses a 3:2 aspect ratio, which, all things considered, is a pretty good compromise (although 16:9 would probably a better ratio these days). Those shooting portraits often want 5:4 or square, videographers want 16:9, cinematographers 21:9, landscapers generally 3:2 and upwards, and events/action cover the whole gamut. Thing is, not everyone has the same resolution requirements - those shooting wider formats are often more in need of resolution than those shooting squarer formats.

If you shoot predominantly squarer formats, 44x33mm probably works well for you. If you're shooting 4:5, square format or other low-aspect ratio formats, you're getting an 89% increase in sensor area over what you could manage with full-frame (i.e. at 4:5, 41.25x33 is 89% larger than 24x30mm on full-frame, and, at square format, 33x33mm is 89% larger than 24x24mm).

Things don't work so well if you shoot wider. When the 44mm length is the limiting factor and you need to crop the shorter edge, you're only getting a 49% increase in sensor area. At 3:2 (29.3x44mm), 16:9 (24.75x44mm), 1:2 (22x44mm) or 1:3 (14.7x44mm) you're only gaining 49% image area over what you could have gotten from a full-frame image.

Fortunately, landscapers often have the ability to stitch. Those shooting wide panoramas may get screwed over by the aspect ratio, but, when stitching, you can create any effective sensor size and any aspect ratio. In fact, the only thing you really gain from the 44x33mm format is the 16-bit RAW file. The difference in resolution and effective sensor size can easily be made up for with a few extra shots - many of my 1:3 aspect ratio panoramas are made using a tilt-shift lens, with an effective sensor size of 24x60mm, cropped to 20x60mm. I suspect landscape shooters will just continue to stitch, rather than spending money on a system that only offers them a small increase in sensor area and far fewer lenses. It would be different if they released a 41x56mm (i.e. true 645-format), 24x65mm (X-pan) or 24x72mm (two full-frame sensors side-by-side) sensor, but the 44x33mm sensor really doesn't offer enough to landscapers shooting 3:2 and wider to offset the downsides.

Which leads to the next problem - lens selection.

Full-frame is one size - 24x36mm - so it's easy to design a lens that can go on different mounts and be used on a multitude of cameras. Medium format has a plethora of formats - 44x33mm, 45x30mm, 56x36mm, 54x41mm and 56x41mm - and that's just counting the ones up to 645-size. Which likely means a multitude of different, incompatible lenses, each designed for a different mount on a different aspect ratio.

An 'ultimate' MF landscape camera system would be very easy, though. 24x72mm (two full-frame sensors side-by-side), with a movable/tiltable back for tilt/shift capability with all lenses. Then just four zooms - 22-44mm f/5.6 (equivalent to 11-22mm in full frame along the longer dimension), 45-135mm f/5.6 (23-67mm equivalent), 135-400mm f/5.6 (67-200mm equivalent) and, optionally, a 300-800mm f/8 (for those long shots). A full system that covers every possible landscape, in MF size, that fits in a bag.
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dwswager

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Re: First Medium Format Mirroless: from Hasselblad
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2016, 08:59:50 am »

Lets see, the full frame shooters with personal investment bias are saying that this 44x33 is the same as full frame.  The APS-C shooters with personal investment bias are saying that APS-C is just as good as full frame.  Micro 4/3 shooters have been vocal for a long time that their format is not only as good as APS-C but is just as good as full frame.  Even some 1" sensor people claim that their format is just as good as APS-C and m43.  So, by using some mathematical theorems, specifically the one that says if A=B and B=C then A=C, we should interpret that a 1" sensor will produce image quality that is just as good as a 44x33mm pseudo medium format sensor in the X1D.

Great I got all that straight now!!!  Guess I'll go out and buy a Nikon J1, or Panasonic GH1 on the used market for $50 and produce images equal to medium format.  Man do I feel better about all of this photography stuff.  Wait, maybe my iPhone is just as good as this new Hasselblad, yeah, yeah, that's the ticket!  ;D :o ::) :P

I neither said that nor do I think that.  There is a reason I own both a D810 and D500.  But I was surprised at the smallish sensor size of the Hassy in question compared to what I know of Hassy as 2 1/4 square from film days.  I know neither the political definition of MF for digital, nor the practical/technical point at which a larger sensor size delivers substantial benefits over FF.

It was a lot simpler with film due to the constant resolution per unit area.  But with multiple pixel pitches available, harder to discern the benefits and draw backs.  Especially with film, even the lower resolving power MF lenses were still good enough, but that equation changes with a super high pixel pitch MF sensor.  Now the glass needs a major upgrade.

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