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Author Topic: More Statistics out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II  (Read 9039 times)

John Koerner

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More Statistics out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II
« on: June 04, 2016, 08:26:57 pm »

The DP Review on the Nikon D5 is out.

  • "... what a benchmark it sets. Use one, and you'll be rewarded with as close to a polished, pure and responsive photographic tool as you can get.

    "... The D5 is a big camera that represents a big investment. But with increased battery life, an updated metering sensor, and autofocus that's more reliable than ever, the D5's value proposition for those that truly need it is better than its price and sensor specification might suggest. The D5 may not re-imagine the high-end sports camera market segment, but it doesn't need to. It's an eminently enjoyable and reliable camera to use in the real world, and has the best autofocus system that anyone in the DPReview offices has ever used - bar none.

    "... the D5 will keep up with just about any subject under just about any lighting conditions, (and) the new sensor offers class-leading low light image quality."
Looks like I am going to have to start saving ;D

I still haven't received my D500, but I hope that changes over the next few weeks. I absolutely love my D810 and have learned to customize it pretty well. From what I have read, the D500 is even more cutomizable, and (in reading this review) the D5 is eminently customizable.

Hope to pick up the latter by the end of this year, if the D900 doesn't get in the way :)

Jack
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 06:35:59 pm by John Koerner »
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Paul2660

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2016, 08:51:27 pm »

Most definitely a very subject focused camera.  Good review.

Sad to see no built in Wifi, and the need for additional software for a USB 3.0 connection. 

For sure the camera is made for high ISO work, as they clearly point out, no point in trying to push the low ISO ranges, period. 

Very interesting to compare all the testing they did with the D750, which IMO scores very close in most of the ISO testing and many times surpasses the D5, especially in the Low ISO/push testing.

No doubt the AF is way beyond anything besides the D500, and glad that at least the D500 has the same AF module so other photographers can experience such a good system (per their testing and others).

For would love to see the same AF module in a D900 or ever D750 follow on, as the most of the rich features of the D5 do no apply for me.

Paul C
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John Koerner

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2016, 09:08:34 pm »

Most definitely a very subject focused camera.  Good review.

Agreed.



Sad to see no built in Wifi, and the need for additional software for a USB 3.0 connection. 

Meh, more of an annoyance than "sad."

WiFi is available, it just requires extra $$ to add it.

Agree with you though, at that price point, it should be included.



For sure the camera is made for high ISO work, as they clearly point out, no point in trying to push the low ISO ranges, period. 

Absolutely agree. For blazing-fast action, NO ONE is using ISO 64 (or even ISO 100), so 'low ISO dynamic range' means nothing in action photography.

Add low-light conditions, on top of the need for speed, and "base ISO scores" become absolutely meaningless. Nikon knows this, as do people who take action shots.

This camera is designed to capture action, at the highest possible level, and it is here where the Nikon D5 sets THE standard to which all others can only "look up" ...



Very interesting to compare all the testing they did with the D750, which IMO scores very close in most of the ISO testing and many times surpasses the D5, especially in the Low ISO/push testing.

Again, low light in a static conditions isn't the same when "the fleeting moment of a lifetime" is upon you.

It is here where the D750 would fail and the D5 would nail the shot.



No doubt the AF is way beyond anything besides the D500, and glad that at least the D500 has the same AF module so other photographers can experience such a good system (per their testing and others).

Agreed.



For would love to see the same AF module in a D900 or ever D750 follow on, as the most of the rich features of the D5 do no apply for me.
Paul C

I would be tickled also if this AF system would migrate to the D900, but I don't think the D900 is going to be that kind of camera.

It's also the buffer rate, and the indefatigable FPS that just never lets up, that adds to the AF system which makes the D5 what it is.

The D900, I am sure, will set a new benchmark for static, low-light, take-your-time-to-compose photography ... just as surely as the D5 has set the benchmark for nailing those fleeting moments as perfectly as possible.

Jack
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dwswager

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2016, 10:37:45 pm »


I still haven't received my D500, but I hope that changes over the next few weeks. I absolutely love my D810 and have learned to customize it pretty well. From what I have read, the D500 is even more cutomizable, and (in reading this review) the D5 is eminently customizable.

Jack

Both the D810 and D500 are very customizable.  One of the things I like about the D500 is they added a setting in the Auto ISO part to have a separate max ISO when using Flash.  Of course, as this is software logic, it could be added to the D810, but I doubt it will be.

I just wish they would quit moving the buttons around.  I get needing to make changes when adding functionality, but the swap of the Mode and ISO buttons on the D500 mean they are opposite of the D810.
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David Anderson

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2016, 10:51:06 pm »

I no longer have any need for the super cameras like the D5 (or Canon 1's), but I am hoping some of these features trickle down to the next D810 style camera.
The automatic AF micro adjustment (assuming it works well) would be a game changer IMHO.

AF micro adjustment gives me headaches. lol
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John Koerner

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2016, 12:16:45 am »

I no longer have any need for the super cameras like the D5 (or Canon 1's)

But some people do, and those who do have such needs have a pretty exciting option at their disposal.

We all have different needs, I reckon.
Hell, we also have different needs, as individuals, on different days.
(Maybe on one day, I don't need the D5, but maybe on another it is my best option.)

What's interesting to me is, if I have perfect lighting conditions, and no movement, Nikon offers the best base-ISO option with the D810. (Quote: "Benchmark performance.")

On the opposite end of the spectrum, if I have unfavorable lighting conditions, and rapid movement, Nikon also offers the best low-light, fast-movement option as well, with the D5. (Quote: "Setting a New Standard.")

Everybody else is somewhere in the middle (or less).

With these two cameras, the D810 and the D5, you pretty much have the best of both worlds covered.

I might add, if I don't feel like lugging the weight, and would prefer a smaller camera, by all reviews the APS-C, from low-to-high ISO, as well as with its AF system, is the D500. (Quote: "The most well-rounded DSLR we've ever tested.")

All of these reviews took place within the last 3 weeks.

Nikon's management may have its troubles, but their technology surely doesn't.

Jack
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2016, 05:30:40 am »

I had the chance to shoot a pole dance event last night. Low ambiant light (1/250, f2.8 at ISO16,000~), crappy WB at around 2400K with intense flickering, some low intensity multi-color spots flicking all over the place, quick moving subjet in hard to predict movement patterns.

I decided to try the 3D AF and am impressed by the number of keepers I got. The stickiness of the AF is pretty remarkable. Not every frame is perfect of course, but I only got 5 completely oof frames out of 1,400 and I suspect that those are times where I was unable to follow the subject and triggered a new AF aquisition on some mirrors refkecting a white wall.

I did also a quick comparison of raw converters for the D5 files at high ISO (C1 Pro, Capture NX, Raw Developper and DxO 11) and DxO 11 comes out on top in terms of noise. Surprisingly the colors also appear to be good for the D5, very close to Capture NX and C1 Pro (I had a hard time getting pleasing colors with DxO 10). Of note is a small bug with as shot white balance of D5 files by which the real value is not taken into account. Switching back and forth btw daylight and as shot fixes the issue.

Unforetunately I can't post images yet since it was a private assignement and I need them to validate first.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 05:20:23 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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John Koerner

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2016, 10:20:21 pm »

You're as much of a tease as the pole-dancer ;D
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Colorado David

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2016, 11:29:10 pm »

You're as much of a tease as the pole-dancer ;D

I kinda doubt it was that type of pole dance.

John Koerner

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2016, 11:49:48 pm »

I kinda doubt it was that type of pole dance.

It there another kind :o
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2016, 01:17:53 am »

It there another kind :o

There is only one type of pole but very different ways to use it! :)

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2016, 08:20:02 am »

A few images are now online. Most images at ISO 25,600 or 12,800. Converted with DxO 11.







More here.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 09:20:54 am by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2016, 08:05:39 pm »

For those who may not have noticed, a new D5 firmware is rumoured to be released next week with several improvements including flickr reduction for still and video. This would have come handy in venues such as the one above where light flickering did result in pretty significant variation of light level (at least 2/3 stop).

http://nikonrumors.com/2016/06/19/nikon-d5-firmware-update-to-be-released-soon.aspx/

Also, another image captured this weekend. This thing tracks so well it feels like a virtual infinite DoF simulator.



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 08:13:55 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D5 - Setting New Standards
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2016, 07:14:03 pm »

The firmware C 1.10 is now available for download at the following link:

http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/fw/188.html

Improvements are as rumoured.

Cheers,
Bernard

John Koerner

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SenScore Stats out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2016, 05:41:26 pm »

The new SenScore Stats are out on these two Flagship Cameras (click SenScore > Scores > Full Frame Cameras)

The D5 is the overall class leader at SenScore too, earning its #1 Action Camera badge, confirming the DP Review write-up above, with the following stats (1000 = Grade A):

  • NOISE
    Nikon D5: 1065
    Canon 1Dx II: 1046

    DYNAMIC RANGE
    Nikon D5: 1438
    Canon 1Dx II: 1314

    COLOR RANGE
    Nikon D5: 1414
    Canon 1Dx II: 988

    TONAL RANGE
    Nikon D5: 1233
    Canon 1Dx II: 1093

    RESOLVING POWER
    Nikon D5: 701
    Canon 1Dx II: 665

    ** OVERALL **
    Nikon D5: 1170
    Canon 1Dx II: 1021

I trust SenScores reviews more than DxO Marks (read their FAQ and About pages). SenScore also breaks things down into more useful categories IMO.

Both the D5 and 1Dx II are close, with the D5 carrying a only a slight edge in most catagories, but trouncing the Canon in Color/Tonal Ranges.

Neither DxO Mark nor SenScore rate two of the key factors to both cameras:

  • The D5 also has the better AF system;
  • Whereas the 1Dx II has the better 4K video system.

If still shots are your thing, the D5 is better across the board in every asset.

But if 4K video is important to you, the Canon is close enough sensor-wise, while trouncing the Nikon in 4K video capability.

(Interested to see where the D500 comes in ...)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 06:36:12 pm by John Koerner »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: More Statistics out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2016, 09:37:13 pm »

Jack,

At this point, really nobody cares.

Some Canon users are convinced that the 1DxII is the better camera, some Nikon users are convinced that the D5 is the better camera.

The reality being that they are both excellent and that most will rationalize that the gap, even if there is one, isn't large enough to justify a switch.

So this is a total waste of your valuable time. ;)

I will personnally continue to shoot with my D5 and it certainly is the best option ever to shoot action with the set of lenses I own.

Knowing that even its worst characteristics (DR at low ISO) is still as good as the reference landscape camera in the Canon world (5Ds) won't help me sleep better at night, but does confirm my first hand feeling that the D5 is totally usable even in harsh light.

I do get the same feeling when I realize that this awful D5 has as much DR as ISO 100 as a P45+ or an H3D39 that were said not that long ago to have 6 stops more SR than DSLRs...  ;D

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D5-versus-Hasselblad-H3DII-39-versus-Phase-One-P45-Plus___1062_457_456

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:54:14 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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John Koerner

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Re: More Statistics out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 10:08:57 pm »

Jack,
At this point, really nobody cares.

Everybody cares, Bernard.

However, I do agree most are probably sick to death of hearing about it :)



Some Canon users are convinced that the 1DxII is the better camera, some Nikon users are convinced that the D5 is the better camera.

The truth is, each is the better camera, for different reasons.

For stills only, the D5 is better. If 4K video is integral, the 1DxII is the choice.



I will personnally continue to shoot with my D5 and it certainly is the best option ever to shoot action with the set of lenses I own.

Knowing that even its worst characteristics (DR at low ISO) is still as good as the reference landscape camera in the Canon world (5Ds) won't help me sleep better at night, but does confirm my first hand feeling that the D5 is totally usable even in harsh light.

Congrats.



I do get the same feeling when I realize that this awful D5 has as much DR as ISO 100 as a P45+ or an H3D39 that were said not that long ago to have 6 stops more SR than DSLRs...  ;D

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D5-versus-Hasselblad-H3DII-39-versus-Phase-One-P45-Plus___1062_457_456

Cheers,
Bernard

See, Bernard, you do care ;D

What is interesting to me is, if you check the Specs on SenScore, the D5 and D4 are both Nikon-made sensors.

Only the D750-D800 series are Sony-made.

What is also interesting is that sensor-performance seems to be plateauing. The D5 didn't have much advancement over the D4s, same as the Sony A7r II didn't surpass the D810 by much either.

Although the 1Dx II is a significant improvement over the 1Dx, it's still floating around the 1000 mark, long after the D800 got there in 2012.

Soon, all these cameras are going to be similar in specs, so the real advancements are going to be ergonomics, AF, lens selection, and other laterals.

Jack
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: More Statistics out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2016, 12:20:38 am »

See, Bernard, you do care ;D

The only thing I really care about is the ability of the equipment I own relative to the applications at stake. DxO is an interesting input because it helps validate my informal impressions and can also help identify the sweet spot for a piece of equipment.

The performance of the 1DxII or other Canon bodies is the least of my concerns as long as they are not significantly superior. I would pay real close attention if the successor of the 5Ds offered 2 stop more DR than the hypothetical D900 because that would help my photography. I wouldn't hesitate long to dump all my Nikon equipment on my usual auction site if such a breakthrough were to happen. And that may partially happen in the coming months, but probably not in favor of Canon equipment for now.

I like to think that, as a photographer, I am defined by the photographs I take, not by the gear I own.

So even if Nikon were miles ahead, and they have been in terms of DR for many years, I do fully understand that there are many good and bad potential reasons why many Canon photographers do not care, or do not care enough to switch brand. Perhaps they don't have the time/cash to manage a switch, perhaps they don't know (few people join such forum in fact), perhaps they like their lenses better (or really need a unique lens such as the 17mm T/S), perhaps they work with equipment provided by their company, perhaps they hate the ergonomics of Nikon/Sony bodies, perhaps their applications don't involve contrasty scenes or perhaps the DR they have today is overall good enough in a majority of cases, perhaps they have personnal connections with Canon marketing, perhaps they are unable to deal with change, perhaps they are conspiracy theorists and think that Nikon is funding DxO, perhaps they are so influenced by marketing that they cannot imagine that a recognized and leading brand such as Canon could fall so far behind on such a key metrics for so long ("that cannot be true", "too big to fail",...), perhaps they are fanboys who identify themselves with their camera brand,... good and bad reasons.

I don't care, their reasons not to pay attention to what other brands do are what they are and trying to change them has zero value for me. I tried to spread the good word about the value of better DR (and stitching, and....) for too long here and there, and the main outcome has probably been to end up being categorized as a Nikon fanboy (at least I never claimed a 6 stops advantage...). The truth is that I was promoting DR, not Nikon, but that doesn't matter... believe me, it's just a waste of time.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 12:31:06 am by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: More Statistics out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2016, 12:56:23 am »

Senscore reliable? Yeah, right...

For one, they don't publish their actual measurements. They merely set the D800's values as a baseline of 1000, then publish their other results around that. No information on distribution and deviation.

Secondly, their results make no sense.

Noise - specifically, this is about sensor/read noise, not shot noise (it says so on their own website). In other words, inversely related to SNR at base ISO. They rated the D5 slightly higher than the 1Dx2. Actual data says otherwise.

DR - We know for a fact, that the D5 sensor has more than a stop less DR at base ISO than the 1Dx2. It's also basically equal from ISO 1600 and up - D5 ahead slightly from 6400-51200, 1Dx2 ahead slightly after that. Senscore says the opposite. It also scores the D5 much higher on DR than the D810, D800, A7r2 and other sensors renowned for their DR. It even scores Canon's 1Dx higher than the D810. So much for credibility.

Colour range/tonal range - more-or-less correlates.

Resolving power - this is basically megapixel count, minus the impact of the AA filter. Even then, the discrepancies make no sense. Two sensors, with the same pixel count, have the same resolving power by definition. They're not lenses - they don't focus light. They merely sample what's put in front of them, and the sampling resolution is defined by the number of photosites on each sensor. So two AA-filter-free sensors with the same pixel count must have the same resolving power, irrespective of sensor size (a 24MP MF sensor still has the same resolution as a 24MP APS-C sensor; the APS-C sensor's relative unsharpness is because the lens sitting in front of it needs to be much sharper than the MF lens to actually take advantage of all the pixels). If they don't, the problem's with your focusing or your lens, not the sensor.

The only way these discrepancies - particularly in DR and noise - can be reconciled is if they measured performance at every ISO on the camera (even ISO 3.2 million on the D5) and weighted them the same (including scores of 0 where a camera doesn't have that native ISO), rather than measuring actual underlying performance. This, naturally, skews the results towards cameras with extremely high nominal ISO limit . Technically, there is no difference between ISO 3.2 million and an ISO 102400 pushed 5 stops. If you put the same sensor into two different cameras and allow the first to go to ISO 3.2M while limiting the second to 102K, actual measured performance will still be the same. But, if your scoring system gives points to ISO 204k-3.2M for the first camera, while giving 0 points to the second for the same ISOs, then, naturally, the first camera is going to score better on your 'test', despite the sensor being the same, the raw data coming out of the sensor being the same and a 102k image from the second camera, pushed 5 stops, being technically th same as a 3.2M shot from the first camera.

Quote
What is interesting to me is, if you check the Specs on SenScore, the D5 and D4 are both Nikon-made sensors.

Only the D750-D800 series are Sony-made.

Nikon doesn't make the D5 and D4 either. They are made by Renesas to Nikon's specification.
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John Koerner

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Re: More Statistics out on NIKON D5 vs. CANON 1Dx II
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2016, 01:43:10 am »

The only thing I really care about is the ability of the equipment I own relative to the applications at stake. DxO is an interesting input because it helps validate my informal impressions and can also help identify the sweet spot for a piece of equipment.

Exactly as I do.

I value DxO to a degree, but I like SenScore and LenScore better than the rest of the rating systems.



The performance of the 1DxII or other Canon bodies is the least of my concerns as long as they are not significantly superior. I would pay real close attention if the successor of the 5Ds offered 2 stop more DR than the hypothetical D900 because that would help my photography. I wouldn't hesitate long to dump all my Nikon equipment on my usual auction site if such a breakthrough were to happen. And that may partially happen in the coming months, but probably not in favor of Canon equipment for now.

I dumped my Canon equipment when it became clear they were stuck in the middle, quality-wise, and that they weren't coming out anytime soon.

I would hesitate to dump what I have at this point, because I don't think anything is going to be radical enough to make me do so.

There were options radically-better than my old EOS 7D ... but I doubt very seriously that there is going to be anything "radically-better" than my D500 or D810 for quite awhile.

I like the Nikon system better, especially their old school manual lenses being reversible for my macro, inexpensive, fast, and tough for field conditions.



I like to think that, as a photographer, I am defined by the photographs I take, not by the gear I own.

The gear you own affects the images you take.



So even if Nikon were miles ahead, and they have been in terms of DR for many years, I do fully understand that there are many good and bad potential reasons why many Canon photographers do not care, or do not care enough to switch brand. Perhaps they don't have the time/cash to manage a switch, perhaps they don't know (few people join such forum in fact), perhaps they like their lenses better (or really need a unique lens such as the 17mm T/S), perhaps they work with equipment provided by their company, perhaps they hate the ergonomics of Nikon/Sony bodies, perhaps their applications don't involve contrasty scenes or perhaps the DR they have today is overall good enough in a majority of cases, perhaps they have personnal connections with Canon marketing, perhaps they are unable to deal with change, perhaps they are conspiracy theorists and think that Nikon is funding DxO, perhaps they are so influenced by marketing that they cannot imagine that a recognized and leading brand such as Canon could fall so far behind on such a key metrics for so long ("that cannot be true", "too big to fail",...), perhaps they are fanboys who identify themselves with their camera brand,... good and bad reasons.

I go with most quality for least money as my yardstick.

When I started, Canon had the 7D and Nikon had the D300, and the 7D was the better camera for the least money. That is why I went with them in the first place.

I stayed with Canon for awhile because of a similar reason: the MP-E 65mm lens. It was peerless. I was also enamored by the 200-400 and 11-22mm zooms.

But I had outgrown my "starter camera," and I needed to get rid of my 7D ... and Canon continue(d) to lag for so long that I wasn't willing to buy one of their cameras again, and so made a decision to go a different route to take my photography to the next level.

Though I was labeled a "Canon fanboy," I was ultimately a quality product at the best price fanboy.

And the tide turned: Canon began to be the company that made inferior products and charged more for them.

Why should I buy a $3500 5DSr when I could buy a $2800 D810, that was a better camera?

Why should I buy an $11,000 200-400mm f/4 when I could buy a $6000 300mm f/2.8 + 2x extender, and have a better lens and more reach?



I don't care, their reasons not to pay attention to what other brands do are what they are and trying to change them has zero value for me. I tried to spread the good word about the value of better DR (and stitching, and....) for too long here and there, and the main outcome has probably been to end up being categorized as a Nikon fanboy (at least I never claimed a 6 stops advantage...). The truth is that I was promoting DR, not Nikon, but that doesn't matter... believe me, it's just a waste of time.
Cheers,
Bernard

I agree with you.

People may not see this, but I have always followed "best quality for best price," not any particular brand.

When I started that happened to be Canon; right now it is Nikon.

Check the rating of the 7D and it is better than the D300 (and it was cheaper, too, when these products were first released).

Now, the quality has been reversed: the 7D II is floundering in mediocrity, while 6 out of the Top 10 FF cameras are Nikons, and 5 out of 10 APS-Cs are too (soon it will be 6 as well, as soon as the D500 stats come out ;)).

There is no intelligent person who can say the 7D II + 200-400mm (at $12,800) is a "better deal" than getting a D500 + D810 + 300mm + 2x TC + Tripod, etc. (for $12,780).

I have two cameras that are by far better and more capable than the 7D II, a marginally-better (and more consistent) top-tier lens, and more supplemental equipment for that same money. Canon simply doesn't offer the same value to me that it did when I started.

People can poo-poo LenScore and SenScore, but they really are better rating system than anything out there (they just don't like where their gear ratings are placed ;))

Getting new gear feels good, and I am thrilled with the quality of gear I have now. I almost don't even use my Voightlander macro lens anymore, because of how good the 300mm lens is (even with a 2x converter), and how accurate the AF is, that I can get the same nature macro shots, from 12-20' back, in a split-second, with nearly the same quality results. I can raise it up and get a bird on a tree. Slap the 2x TC on and get a deer (or bear) in the woods ... and I am looking forward to doing just that in the forthcoming weeks/months ahead 8)

But you're right, it is a waste of time to tell some people ... but there are some who are listening too, like I was.

Jack
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