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Author Topic: Calibration: How do I know what's real?  (Read 16636 times)

kevs

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2016, 10:55:27 pm »

Alter, I earn nothing from processing. I was just doing my own portfolios mostly, and it was a PITA, inks, paper, the time, the space... And with the advent of digital the need is much less.  I have tons of expenses to write off including the new ipad pro I got for the 'new' in person portfolio. I am making a box of a loose print portfolio and will have someone print those.

Thanks Bob, so if I'm not printing myself here is the Spyder 3 ok?

BTW when I was printing, I used Colorbyte software and the Spyder 3 and was happy with the monitor to print replication. And I think that was through the G5 to the old imac 27". Now after a day my monitor looks fine, but it does have that warm tone vs non calibrated.

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Czornyj

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2016, 06:13:32 am »

For those on a really small budget, I've found that the ColorMunki Smile is surprisingly good. It seems much better than the preceding units that it physically resembled (i1d1, i1d2 etc.).  It's disadvantages compared to the ColorMunki Display are that it is not as good at low light levels (no light capture optics), and doesn't have the display type calibration capabilities (no per-unit spectral curves in it, just two factory matrices). But I have a suspicion that the filters it uses are almost the same as the i1d3.

Thanks Graeme, very interesting information. By any chance did you check inter instrument agreement? Considering that the filters are the same as in i1D3 - would it be possible to use random spectral curves of i1D3 and spectral calibration for specific display types in ArgyllCMS?

smthopr

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2016, 11:59:28 am »

I just bought a new Mac 27" and did the Spyder 3 calibration which I had not done in awhile anyway. It's looks fine, but I thought maybe it looks like a warming filter thrown over a cool blue scene. i.e. Seeing it with the with vs. without calibration at the end button.

Here is the question: How do you know it's accurate? Sure I love Datacolor, but there is no consensus tool and says, yes they did a great job, and your monitor is 100 accurate/ calibrated, correct?

Also, isn't it subjective or not?  Honestly, the non calibrated looks nice. It's more neutral tone, but blue, kind of like how I remember shooting at the beach. The "calibrated" is much warmer. They both are fine to look at, and over time my eyes will adjust to either. What is the truth?

A good question, I think.

The reality is that you can't know how accurate your screen is unless you measure the result with a known accurate probe.

And even with that, the appearance of displays with different technologies look different to us, even when they measure the same.  Ie. a plasma display has a different feel than an LCD (LED) or an LCD(florescent back light) or an OLED screen or a DLP projector.

The best you might be able to do is to compare your image on your display to the same image on a known accurate display set to the same white point and brightness level.

All I can add is that I use the iOne Display Pro calibrator and the results compare quite well to other displays known, to me, to be quite accurate. (I have used my display, calibrated with the iOne, to color correct movies for theatrical distribution and all looked great in the theater, though each theater looks slightly different, even when they a near accurate)

If you are not printing your photos, then they'll be viewed by others, on their own uncalibrated displays, and everyone will see something different.  And there's not anything you can do about that :)

Get the iOne Display and assume everything is close enough.
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kevs

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2016, 12:23:03 pm »

Thanks Bruce, good info. The pucks range from $80, then $150, to $250 for the one you use. I guess I should buy all three and test them out. one day..! ? 
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AlterEgo

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2016, 12:53:20 pm »

Thanks Bruce, good info. The pucks range from $80, then $150, to $250 for the one you use. I guess I should buy all three and test them out. one day..! ?

X-Rite has sales on a regular basis recently (shops like B&H)... so you might as well wait and I bet eventually i1DisplayPro will appear again @ <= $160 a piece..
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Czornyj

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 12:57:40 pm »

Thanks Bruce, good info. The pucks range from $80, then $150, to $250 for the one you use. I guess I should buy all three and test them out. one day..! ?

My test results, with 10k$ Jeti Specbos 1211 spectroradiometer measurement as reference:



kevs

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2016, 12:58:42 pm »

thanks Alter, do you think X rite is that much better than the new Spyper, or Munki. those get good reviews too. Have you tested them all?

Honestly, when I was printing with the Spyder 3, the prints looked fine.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2016, 01:20:33 pm »

thanks Alter, do you think X rite is that much better than the new Spyper, or Munki. those get good reviews too. Have you tested them all?

Honestly, when I was printing with the Spyder 3, the prints looked fine.

see... your personal happiness is the most important part... no matter what we say here about Spyder 3 - if you were happy w/ it and if you can get back to that state, forgetting this thread, then please do by all means... otherwise - save $ and buy i1DisplayPro... many years ago when I got my first proper digital camera, I purchased Spyder 2 (sic!) w/o much thoughts and I was happy (ignorance is a bliss) and then I start reading these pesky forums  ;D ... yes, I have i1DisplayPro and I am itching to buy Discus once in a while (GAS), even logic tells me that I do not need it really... the gain (if ever) will be miniscule for me, I will not be able see it ever...
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Czornyj

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2016, 01:29:18 pm »

see... your personal happiness is the most important part... no matter what we say here about Spyder 3 - if you were happy w/ it and if you can get back to that state, forgetting this thread, then please do by all means... otherwise - save $ and buy i1DisplayPro... many years ago when I got my first proper digital camera, I purchased Spyder 2 (sic!) w/o much thoughts and I was happy (ignorance is a bliss) and then I start reading these pesky forums  ;D ... yes, I have i1DisplayPro and I am itching to buy Discus once in a while (GAS), even logic tells me that I do not need it really... the gain (if ever) will be miniscule for me, I will not be able see it ever...

I had the Discus, it's not worth it.

kevs

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2016, 01:34:42 pm »

Alter, thanks. What did you discover between your Spyder and the Display 1? Ignorance was not bliss?
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GWGill

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2016, 06:19:48 pm »

By any chance did you check inter instrument agreement?

I only have one ColorMunki Smile, so no.

The thing I noticed about the Smile was that it's measurements were much more independent of the display type or calibration matrix chosen than the i1d2/Display LT/Huey etc., as if the basic filter shape was much closer to the standard observer. This makes sense in a world of more diverse display technologies, and where X-Rite have made the investment in developing and manufacturing accurate filters for the i1d3. (If I were them, I'd be doing something like batch sorting the filter sheets, and using the lesser ones for the Smile instruments.)
Quote
Considering that the filters are the same as in i1D3 - would it be possible to use random spectral curves of i1D3 and spectral calibration for specific display types in ArgyllCMS?
I doubt that using any i1d3 calibration would help. The i1d3 calibrations are to correct individual units differences from the perfect, standard observer filter. So unless there was a systematic deviation from the standard observer in the manufactured filter, the Smile factory matrices are likely to be much better than assuming anything from an i1d3.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2016, 06:22:27 pm »

I had the Discus, it's not worth it.

right, but still you have some itch  ;D ... it is said that it has that feel of a solid all metal gear  ::)
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Lundberg02

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2016, 07:30:21 pm »

That's a pretty chart, czornj. What does it mean? What was being measured and what are the instruments? i1 doesn't define anything. I take it that Spyders are way off warmer, confirming what others have said. Please explain further.
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kevs

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2016, 09:21:09 pm »

Lund: and others

"I take it that Spyders are way off warmer"
This is not just me?  This is a known thing with Sypder, even the new 5?
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Czornyj

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2016, 03:33:27 am »

I only have one ColorMunki Smile, so no.

The thing I noticed about the Smile was that it's measurements were much more independent of the display type or calibration matrix chosen than the i1d2/Display LT/Huey etc., as if the basic filter shape was much closer to the standard observer. This makes sense in a world of more diverse display technologies, and where X-Rite have made the investment in developing and manufacturing accurate filters for the i1d3. (If I were them, I'd be doing something like batch sorting the filter sheets, and using the lesser ones for the Smile instruments.) I doubt that using any i1d3 calibration would help. The i1d3 calibrations are to correct individual units differences from the perfect, standard observer filter. So unless there was a systematic deviation from the standard observer in the manufactured filter, the Smile factory matrices are likely to be much better than assuming anything from an i1d3.

Thanks a lot Graeme, that makes perfect sense! I'll try to get a couple of Smiles and see if there's good repeatability among them.

right, but still you have some itch  ;D ... it is said that it has that feel of a solid all metal gear  ::)
Solid, but display type calibration dependent. If the calibration matched the measured monitor it was very precise, otherwise it was deep in the forrest. I suppose it has filters that doesn't match standard observer as good as i1D3 filters.


That's a pretty chart, czornj. What does it mean? What was being measured and what are the instruments? i1 doesn't define anything. I take it that Spyders are way off warmer, confirming what others have said. Please explain further.

I calibrated the wtpt of PA242W to D65 using lab grade spectroradiometer, and then measured it with a couple of popular colorimeters. The i1D3 was spot on, while all Spyders were more or less off, and their inter-instrumental agreement wasn't impressive (to put it mildly)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 03:37:00 am by Czornyj »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2016, 10:13:16 am »

Solid, but display type calibration dependent. If the calibration matched the measured monitor it was very precise, otherwise it was deep in the forrest. I suppose it has filters that doesn't match standard observer as good as i1D3 filters.

now that is the statement ! I am even more curious now !
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Lundberg02

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2016, 06:12:15 pm »

Thanks, that is enough clarification.
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Pictus

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2016, 10:46:21 am »

My test results, with 10k$ Jeti Specbos 1211 spectroradiometer measurement as reference:





HI Czornyj,

Which monitor model was measured?
Thanks.
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Czornyj

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2016, 03:17:33 pm »

HI Czornyj,

Which monitor model was measured?
Thanks.

Hi, it was NEC PA242W with BGr LED backlight.

Pictus

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Re: Calibration: How do I know what's real?
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2016, 08:21:47 pm »

Hi,
But the Spyders do not have correction for BGr LED, do they?


BTW, for anyone interest a nice article about monitor backlights
The Evolution of LED Backlights https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-evolution-of-led-backlights/
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