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Author Topic: New Apple's Night Shift Effect  (Read 13095 times)

hjulenissen

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2016, 03:32:23 am »

No, I don't.
So if I have a display in an environment that is 2000 Kelvin, as opposed to an environment that is 10000 Kelvin, having the display track the ambient white point has no benefits wrgt predicting how the image I am viewing would appear hanging on some wall? That would be surprising, considering my laymans understanding of how perceptual adaption works.
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Further, Night Shift Effect ...
I am reasonably aware of how the night shift effect works, and what it tries to do. I am taking a broader perspective here: given that Apple knows how their displays work and have all kinds of cool sensors, what _could_ they have done, color-rendering-wise.

-h
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 12:53:04 pm »

This is real simple; control your image editing environment. Calibrate and profile your display based on the fixed, consistent illuminant you use to view the prints NEXT to the display. Chasing your tail with differing adjustments throughout the day is chasing your tail and not recommended!
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MarkM

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2016, 01:39:59 pm »

This is real simple; control your image editing environment. Calibrate and profile your display based on the fixed, consistent illuminant you use to view the prints NEXT to the display. Chasing your tail with differing adjustments throughout the day is chasing your tail and not recommended!

With something like an iPad, it's not just about editing - it's also about showing your work. You can't control the environment when you show up in someone's office to show a reel or a portfolio on an iPad. If it works well, a feature like True Tone will be welcome in such situations. From their marketing, it looks like this technology is aimed at making the reading experience better. With current iPads the whites are often so cold that the page looks blue in an incandescent environment which isn't comfortable for reading. But there's no reason having built-in ambient color sensors couldn't improve the the viewing experience for photos as you move the device between different color environments.

Yes, the ideal situation is a controlled environment and a device that is calibrated for the environment. But for mobile devices and laptops, that's often not how the devices get used. If I'm shooting for a wire-service or paper, I'm often editing in a coffee shop or even my car and have no control over the ambient light.
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2016, 02:27:47 pm »

With something like an iPad, it's not just about editing - it's also about showing your work. You can't control the environment when you show up in someone's office to show a reel or a portfolio on an iPad.
True, but you're not editing. You're not working with a real color managed device. You're in the same boat showing people prints or a book or a magazine in terms of the surround's affect on your perception. Your eye's adapt to the conditions. Again, this entire thread about Night Shift has zero to do with color management.
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MarkM

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2016, 02:45:20 pm »

True, but you're not editing. You're not working with a real color managed device. You're in the same boat showing people prints or a book or a magazine in terms of the surround's affect on your perception. Your eye's adapt to the conditions. Again, this entire thread about Night Shift has zero to do with color management.

No, it's not the same as a print. With a print, paper white will reflect the ambient light and your eyes will adapt to the conditions. With an illuminated screen you have the possibility of a mis-match. Will your eyes adapt to the illuminant in the room and the white bezel of the device, or the illuminant of the screen? Or somewhere in between? Under tungsten light, the screen of the iPad is noticeably cold, which is a problem.

Yes, I agree this thread is mostly about Night Shift, but people keep bringing up ambient light matching (aka True Tone) which the new devices will also do. I don't really care about Night Shift, but I'm very interested in True Tone if it works.

Also, for what it's worth, sometime very recently (I think 9.3) iOS started honoring embedded color profiles in images. I'm not sure where the line is for a 'real color managed device' but it's definitely a step closer. 
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2016, 02:54:07 pm »

No, it's not the same as a print. With a print, paper white will reflect the ambient light and your eyes will adapt to the conditions. With an illuminated screen you have the possibility of a mis-match.
Put white around the image being viewed. Control the conditions if this is such a big deal (we don't hear the masses watching TV's complaining do we?). For that matter, we don't hear the masses complaining about viewing their images on these mobile devices, when uploaded in sRGB. IF you're editing on such a device, then it's going to be shown elsewhere, in vastly different conditions, that might be an issue but we're not editing the images I'd hope, on such devices. We can't control the ambient conditions when we show up in someone's office to show a portfolio on a print either. This all seems to be a discussion in search of a solution in search of a problem.
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MarkM

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2016, 03:09:48 pm »

Put white around the image being viewed. Control the conditions if this is such a big deal (we don't hear the masses watching TV's complaining do we?). For that matter, we don't hear the masses complaining about viewing their images on these mobile devices, when uploaded in sRGB. IF you're editing on such a device, then it's going to be shown elsewhere, in vastly different conditions, that might be an issue but we're not editing the images I'd hope, on such devices. We can't control the ambient conditions when we show up in someone's office to show a portfolio on a print either. This all seems to be a discussion in search of a solution in search of a problem.

Look, all I'm saying is that this is a real problem that I experience when showing work on an iPad — the display is way too cold for many environments and you normally can't control the environment or the display in these situations. Maybe I'm the only one who has this problem (me and at least one Apple engineer). I haven't done a poll or even asked anyone else. My eyes, like most people's will adapt to white when looking at a print, but they don't adapt, or at least not fully to the white point of the small screen of the iPad. They adapt to the white point illuminating the room, which is different. The only real option is to dim the lights, which I have done, but which isn't normally possible.

You don't see the problem and maybe nobody else does either, that's fine.

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we don't hear the masses watching TV's complaining do we?

Well, if what the masses accept is going to be our standard for best practices, we can all give up now.
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2016, 03:39:42 pm »

Look, all I'm saying is that this is a real problem that I experience when showing work on an iPad — the display is way too cold for many environments and you normally can't control the environment or the display in these situations.
Then try the free X-rite product understanding that it will not ensure a match to anything and doesn't have enough control but can warm the iPad previews.
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Well, if what the masses accept is going to be our standard for best practices, we can all give up now.

I'm suggesting the iPad isn't best practice for showing off your images. Even pairing down devices that are emissive in nature. It's got advantage and some disadvantages and Apple's not providing anything here to counter those image viewing disadvantages.
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2016, 09:42:05 am »

I actually look forward to these features.  Mobile only at the moment makes a lot of sense.  Even if they end up on desktop, I just don't see that being an issue for the fact that you can just switch them off at any time. 

Nightshift mode comes on "at night."  Usually at night I am already cranking the brightness of my devices way down.  Bright lights at night if I am in ambient dimmer light already bothers my eyes.  For that fact alone obviously viewing images or editing is compromised.  Having my screen go yellow is a welcomed addition. 

I've learned my lesson about editing late at night.  The next day I always wonder, "who the heck edited this file!!!"  I spend time with family and do other things in the evening.  I leave my editing for the day.  I also work on an eizo monitor.  Rarely will I use a device like a tablet or my laptop for anything critical.  I think for laptop editing, even if it had those features, I would turn them off if I had to work on files.  Otherwise, I would reproof them when I am back in controlled light. 

As photographers we really need to care of our eyes.  That includes managing screen time, brightness, and exposure.   
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2016, 12:32:38 pm »

Also, for what it's worth, sometime very recently (I think 9.3) iOS started honoring embedded color profiles in images. I'm not sure where the line is for a 'real color managed device' but it's definitely a step closer. 
Could be to support the new iPad Pro which I found out has TWO color gamut's (the old sRGB and the newer DCI-P3). Not totally clear if the user can switch between the two:
http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm
 
Since the iPad Pro 9.7 supports two Color Gamuts it needs to also implement color management in order to get the second smaller sRGB / Rec.709 Gamut to also appear correctly. Both Gamuts need to be separately calibrated at the factory.

Further (in terms of ideal conditions):

Apple has taken an important first step towards improving display performance in ambient light. But essentially all displays are still designed to work best in absolute darkness, but they all significantly degrade in even modest levels of ambient light. However, Microsoft has also taken an important initial step, with the Surface 3 providing its best Color Accuracy in typical indoor 300 lux ambient light rather than in absolute darkness like everybody else…

The best performing LCD and OLED displays are now delivering impressive sharpness, brightness, low reflectance, high color accuracy, accurate image contrast, and great viewing angles. So what comes next? Essentially all published display specifications and factory calibrations are based on performance in absolute darkness 0 lux, but mobile displays (and even TVs) are seldom viewed in the dark. Even low levels of ambient light significantly affect the image and picture quality. For example, the 100 percent Color Gamut specified by many manufacturers only applies at 0 lux. At 500 lux, which corresponds to typical indoor office lighting, the on-screen colors are washed out by the reflected ambient light, typically reducing the on-screen Color Gamut from 100 percent down to 80 percent, plus the image contrast is also significantly affected. And it gets worse as the ambient light levels increase.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 12:38:04 pm by digitaldog »
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MarkM

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2016, 02:19:31 pm »

Could be to support the new iPad Pro which I found out has TWO color gamut's (the old sRGB and the newer DCI-P3). Not totally clear if the user can switch between the two:
http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm
 
Since the iPad Pro 9.7 supports two Color Gamuts it needs to also implement color management in order to get the second smaller sRGB / Rec.709 Gamut to also appear correctly. Both Gamuts need to be separately calibrated at the factory.


That's interesting and quite a sales pitch for the new iPad screen.

I'm not really clear what it means for a device to have two gamuts. Do you take that to mean it has a well-tuned profile to simulate sRGB in a way similar to how NEC monitors have an sRGB mode?
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2016, 02:33:04 pm »

That's interesting and quite a sales pitch for the new iPad screen.
I'm not really clear what it means for a device to have two gamuts. Do you take that to mean it has a well-tuned profile to simulate sRGB in a way similar to how NEC monitors have an sRGB mode?
Yes, that's my assumption. It operates just like SpectraView where it can alter the gamut. But how and when is something I can't figure out (don't have one).
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2016, 04:22:14 pm »

That Displaymate site Andrew linked is pretty solid in how it investigates display performance. Read the man's background who created and runs it.

I'll put my trust in Apple's implementation of their technology to maintain display color WYSIWYG (though it may not be perfect) over any other mobile device manufacture's going by what I saw of the Samsung Galaxy AMOLED pad color rendering of my sRGB tagged online images in both Samsung's version of sRGB and AdobeRGB gamuts at my local Best Buy. Both gamuts screwed up color way beyond the pale.

Apple's iPad was a lot more close viewing in Safari.

I don't know of nor have seen Apple's Night Shift Effect. But I do know that to achieve color balance across all hues requires a white balance that doesn't amplify individual warm colors over cool due to inconsistent neutrality. Overall saturation is inextricably tied to how warm or cool the white balance appears and though it's difficult to see this in high key images, mid-range heavy images such landscapes and skin tones will suffer badly if there isn't a color LUT or matrix correction tied to an automatic cool/warm white balance adjustment.

I was surprised to find how desaturated a lot of my images look even on the iPad when I thought they were a bit too saturated when I first uploaded them and viewed on my calibrated sRGB-ish display.

So I think what is most important is that device manufacturers accurately define what a warm vs cool white balance looks like. There are so many hues to choose from.
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2016, 05:34:02 pm »

I don't know of nor have seen Apple's Night Shift Effect.
If I had to describe what it looks like, default setting; add an 81C (or more) filter over the lens. Quite warm.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2016, 05:43:45 pm »

If I had to describe what it looks like, default setting; add an 81C (or more) filter over the lens. Quite warm.

Thanks for the verbal description, Andrew. I was afraid of that and I'm assuming the saturation level of that "warm" look is quite noticeable.

So, could you see a color table correction similar to what happens applying a dual illuminant DNG profile after changing white balance? Or does it just show the entire screen go warm and warm colors saturate more and cool colors desaturate and/or both change hues?
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GWGill

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2016, 10:37:00 pm »

Yes, that's my assumption. It operates just like SpectraView where it can alter the gamut. But how and when is something I can't figure out (don't have one).
I can't imagine them having anything such as "two gamuts", unless the marketers have insisted on a garish "look I have a big gamut!" mode ?

Just do color management the normal fashion - assume that non-tagged RGB (of any sort, from images or applications) is sRGB. That way everything works as expected, while color aware applications that get tagged colors can take advantage of the larger gamut.
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digitaldog

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2016, 03:01:05 pm »

I can't imagine them having anything such as "two gamuts", unless the marketers have insisted on a garish "look I have a big gamut!" mode ?
I'm just reporting what the 'experts' at Displaymate report. I don't have the device. My wide gamut SpectraView can emulate sRGB, a smaller gamut so I'm not sure why this new product couldn't either.

And in terms of True Tone, here's a review (which one can take with a grain of salt):

True Tone absolutely works as advertised, but that hasn’t convinced me that I really need it. Truthfully, the only time I’m aware that any iPad’s screen is so blue is when I’m trying to take a photo of it with the screen lit up, and the white bezel around the iPad display winds up looking yellow because the blue screen is throwing off the photo’s white balance. But my eyes just aren’t attuned to color temperature in normal, everyday use—I would never look at a screen and think “too yellow” or “too blue” unless it was way, way off. I’m too busy interacting with the content on that screen to notice, but everyone is different and your mileage may vary.
 
http://www.macworld.com/article/3055407/ios/how-to-make-night-shift-act-more-like-true-tone.html
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2016, 05:10:54 pm »

Since I haven't seen this demonstrated or discussed on issues dealing with how white balance variances can screw up the intended color rendering in color managed images, I'll show you what I've had to deal with editing 100's of Raw images shot under various warm/cool color temp environments where getting the proper look of neutral can be quite difficult to nail down.

Below is an image I've been working on lately to bring out all the subtle pastel color variances in the limestone rock that I didn't see due to the warmish rendering of the "As Shot" Raw ACR preview captured with an incamera "Daylight"preset. Note the differences in the lack of subtle color variances in the "filtery" looking warm "As Shot" version next to the final edit. This is why I don't rely on a custom WB while out shooting in the woods due to the constantly changing shade/sun color temps. I fix it in post by taking visual notes of how neutral the actual scene appears.

That's not the real point anyway. I just want to show what warm/cool WB does to color and wonder if it's a good idea to be futzing with this since all devices need to maintain some type of standard viewing condition. These mobile devices have such small screens anyway that I don't see how this warming feature is all that useful compared to what it's going to do to the appearance of color managed images that we've spent so much time, money and energy to implement.
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adias

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2016, 03:01:41 pm »

The capabilities of Night Shift have been available for OS X (and Windows I believe) via a third party app for some time. It's called f.lux and I install it on all my Macs. I'm sensitive to sleep issues and have found it very helpful. It could be a placebo, but it seems to actually make me sleepy. I set the hours I want it in effect and if I'm editing in those hours , I turn it off. Simple. Until Night Shift I used blue blocking reading glasses to get the same effect with my mobile devices....also with excellent results.

Thanks for the suggestion. F.lux works well. 
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hjulenissen

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Re: New Apple's Night Shift Effect
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2016, 05:04:55 am »

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